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WS/fWS Questions for BS's--Part 1?

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Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 09:19 AM

So, I guess I do have a question - you have been on a break from the site for a while, yes? I haven't seen you around. Maybe you have been lurking?

yeah I guess that's what it is. Being depressed and devasted and overwhelmed is more like the words that I would use however

MrsWalloped posted 12/13/2019 09:22 AM

I hate to bring this up and burst the bubble after Cephastion was so gracious, but that wasn’t me who posted that question. It was my husband. Oh well.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 09:26 AM

I hate to bring this up and burst the bubble after Cephastion was so gracious, but that wasn’t me who posted that question. It was my husband. Oh well.--the actual Mrs. Walloped as opposed to her venerable husband, Walloped

Oh crap! You're right! I feel kinda...awkward now.

I was hoping and thinking that you were the one raising the bar and setting the standard here...

But there's still time!

Ask Mr. Walloped if I'm right about this tendency or not and then ask me an actual question.

I believe that empathy can be learned and even taught to a degree.

I want to be right about believing that waywards can truly reform and become just as selfless as the most selfless BS out there.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 9:29 AM, December 13th (Friday)]

Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 09:30 AM

I’m saying that BS's want to feel like we are understood and heard and we want to see reformed waywards show what reformed is supposed to look like

We want to see you guys ask us things

We want to see empathy practiced and exercised.

This here is the point I was making. Obviously this is a website for the purpose of discussion, hence being a “message board.” But the lack of WSs asking BSs who are anonymous strangers questions does not signify “not reformed.” Nor does it signify a lack of empathy. Everyone, BS or WS, can glean a lot by simply reading or participating in various threads. WSs can empathize with a poster’s story or experience without necessarily asking them a direct question.

I suppose I might be projecting a little—years ago I had a bad experience with trying to talk to my BH about some of the things other BHs were posting here. He got irritated, even angry, when I read him a post by Wincing at Light and told me that “they” (the BHs here) don’t speak for him and why was I worried about what other people thought when I wasn’t married to them? I had to admit that was a fair point.

Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 09:35 AM

I also think some BSs have a tendency to want to use the WSs here as surrogates for their own WS. Their WS might be unremorseful or a rugsweeper, etc, and they might be looking towards us for what is missing—even if just to feel validated. The thing is, though, it’s THEIR WS with whom they have to live and deal and accept (or not) on a daily basis.

thatbpguy posted 12/13/2019 09:37 AM

Deeply Scared was a FWS herself and became such a celebrated outreach-minded part of this whole SI thing.

As she passed away on Christmas day, last weekend I went back and read a lot of her posts. She was an amazing, amazing person. Someone should make a compilation of her posts and create a sticky thread for people to refer to.

thatbpguy posted 12/13/2019 09:39 AM

I also think some BSs have a tendency to want to use the WSs here as surrogates for their own WS. Their WS might be unremorseful or a rugsweeper, etc, and they might be looking towards us for what is missing—even if just to feel validated. The thing is, though, it’s THEIR WS with whom they have to live and deal and accept (or not) on a daily basis.

Totally agree.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 09:43 AM

The lack of empathy here is truly remarkable at times...

He got irritated, even angry, when I read him a post by Wincing at Light and told me that “they” (the BHs here) don’t speak for him and why was I worried about what other people thought when I wasn’t married to them? I had to admit that was a fair point.--Darkness Falls

All BS's want (and need) air and water and food and shelter of some kind. That's actually a fair generalization to make even for WS's as well in this jaded/biased man's opinion (sarcasm intended)...

If there are ANY BS's who don't believe they want to see empathy from their WS's or any other WS's or anyone else on this damn planet, then please let them go somewhere else to live besides the planet the rest of us are residing on...please.

Or is that really too much of a generalization for me to make about other BS's there?

I just get surprised at people standing up for things that no one wants.

Or is it just me?

Does your BH not want any empathy from you or others in his life?

Is this how you feel as well?

[This message edited by Cephastion at 9:47 AM, December 13th (Friday)]

thatbpguy posted 12/13/2019 09:47 AM

If there are ANY BS's who don't believe they want to see empathy from their WS's or any other WS's or anyone else on this damn planet, then please let them go somewhere else to live besides the planet the rest of us are residing on...please.

Settle down, settle down.

BS's are fragile and volatile people at times. A little grace is needed- for both.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 09:54 AM

btw, I never asserted this:

But the lack of WSs asking BSs who are anonymous strangers questions does not signify “not reformed."

But your attitude with me and lack of respect for my thread and its topic is very possibly saying things about you that I didn't say at all...and what might be "stuck in your teeth" that you simply CANNOT see without a little help from a mirror or another seeing soul.

Why are you feeling attacked by my asking for people to reach out and make a BS feel welcomed when he says he's depressed and devastated and hasn't been on here as much lately?

[This message edited by Cephastion at 9:57 AM, December 13th (Friday)]

Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 09:58 AM

You know what, my husband can be a real pain in the ass but he is entitled to his opinion. If he wants to tell me that any other BH on this website or on the whole planet for that matter does not speak for him and he doesn’t want to hear about it, that is his right.

To answer your question, no, he is not interested in the concept of empathy. He does not care what anyone else thinks. He has little to no empathy himself (suspected ASD spectrum) and he is not interested in it from others. He just wants to be left alone.

BraveSirRobin posted 12/13/2019 09:58 AM

Ok, I am going to put this as carefully as I can in the limited window of time that I have available to compose it. Ceph, I promise it will end with a question.

I am both grateful and terrified that you brought up Deeply Scared. I never knew her. I am a WW who arrived almost exactly two years after she passed away. I read the pinned thread that chronicled her fight against cancer, and I have had the privilege of speaking with members -- both BS and WS -- who loved her fiercely and take her legacy very seriously. But I have also sensed that there are strong no-go zones in any discussion of how the structure and culture of the site have shifted with her passing. And of course, any speculation I make about what might have happened, and how, and why, is just that, speculation. I wasn't here, so I have had to try to read between the lines.

My conclusion has been that DS was irreplaceable on multiple fronts. First, there was the kind of person she so evidently was -- compassionate, welcoming, uplifting, supportive. The other aspect is her institutional power. As a founder, she was able to speak with an authority that was both explicit and implicit. We have some wonderful mods who do their best to fill the role she served here, but there simply isn't a WS who can speak with that protective authority anymore. Site decisions are made by committee, and that may well be the best and only way for that to happen now. But it's going to change the dynamic, not having the yin/yang of a founding BS and WS who were also a married couple having direct and daily oversight of how the site is run. That cultural shift ripples further and further out as more and more of the "experienced" fWS on the site were not here when DS was in charge.

From subtle clues I have picked up, I sense that that the transition after DS passed away was a bit of a bumpy one. Without presuming to know exactly what went down, I surmise that it was not entirely natural attrition that prompted many of the WS who were active here in that era to leave. Most of the long term WS who do still post are staff now, and despite the "posting as a member" function, I think they have to be cognizant of that in any discussion about site dynamics. So I've had to do my own sleuthing and reach my own (possibly erroneous) hypotheses by reading old posts. My conclusion has aligned with yours, that the way in which BS and WS interact on this site, globally, is very different without DS moderating it.

This has direct bearing on your original question, Ceph. Do you believe, having been here when DS was active, that she felt waywards here were obligated to demonstrate their remorse in specific ways because the BS here needed to see them do that? I'm troubled, because the manifestations I've seen of that phenomenon recently have been threads asking WS to answer hypothetical challenges (would you be beaten, would you get a shame tattoo, would you sign a postnup that leaves you penniless) to prove that we are remorseful. I actually have wondered what DS would have made of that trend. And then I think I must be misunderstanding you, because your post also says that you miss the days when there was more community across BS and WS lines, and it doesn't feel to me like those kinds of posts would foster that, at all.

So I am curious, and in fact a great deal more than curious. Do long time members of the site have observations about this that they are comfortable sharing? Is that even appropriate? I am mindful that MangledHeart still has a founding role here, and I don't intend to be disrespectful of that. However, I'm not sure that the people who knew and loved DS are aware of the growing holes in the site's institutional memory, and how that affects the way that newcomers understand its history and mission when posting here today.

BraveSirRobin posted 12/13/2019 10:01 AM

BTW, it seems like this thread took a different direction while I was composing my post, as threads sometimes do, so if this isn't the right place for this discussion anymore (or never was), feel free to disregard.

MrsWalloped posted 12/13/2019 10:01 AM

Nor does it signify a lack of empathy. Everyone, BS or WS, can glean a lot by simply reading or participating in various threads. WSs can empathize with a poster’s story or experience without necessarily asking them a direct question.

I know I’m biased obviously but I agree. There are many BS’s who respond to threads in Wayward and are very helpful with their advice and 2x4’s. But there are also BS’s who project their pain on to the WS’s that post here. It can be intimidating.

I know that personally I try to separate a BS’s posts when they rant and call us every name in the book from the very same BS who is responding to me, but it does get to me sometimes. Also, using a recent example, I sort of poured my heart out in ICR to help a BS and explain what I went through so he can maybe understand his own situation. I didn’t paint a flattering picture of myself and it was very difficult emotionally to write all that out. Of course another BS felt the need to be nasty to me and bash me over the head in a really not nice way. I’m not saying poor me. But that kind of response makes me hesitant or more careful about posting to a BS. At least in Wayward, it’s protected. I generally don’t use the Stop Sign because I want and value BS’s input and perspective, but I also know that if a BS crosses the line the mods will put a stop to it. 2x4’s are welcome. Nastiness is not, even if we deserve it. So just because we don’t reach out to a BS doesn’t necessarily mean we’re not empathetic.

I do think it’s a good idea, but I wouldn’t want it become a thread where it’s open season on the WS’s who post.

I want to be right about believing that waywards can truly reform and become just as selfless as the most selfless BS out there.

I want to believe this too.

All I’m saying is that just because we’re not reaching out to a BS on this site doesn’t mean we’re not. That shouldn’t be the yardstick.

Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 10:03 AM

I posted respectfully to you and did not give you an attitude until you insulted my husband’s opinion. He is entitled to his just as you are entitled to yours.

I am sorry for your pain and I hope you find peace. For the record, I understand depression very well—I am dealing with highly distressing events IRL and it takes a toll.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 10:04 AM, December 13th (Friday)]

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 10:19 AM

Thank you, Brave Sir Robin who DIDN'T walk or run away from that 3-headed monster (Monty Python unsername reference there for those that don't catch my point).

Thank you.

I am so unqualified to really answer your questions there that I am embarrassed by your thoughtfulness and intuitiveness so greatly exceeding mine.

I am not even trying here to be critical about the site at all! I'm trying to say after the halftime has ended that we can do better than we are doing and play better with each other than we are currently doing. That might just as much include ME as any WS on here since I haven't really posted in the Wayward forum for some time now.

But when I did post in that forum, I made most of them feel welcomed and wanted and supported and encouraged and I asked them questions that showed personal interest in their dilemmas and so forth.

DS did it BETTER and she was a FWW!!!

If I can make a wayward feel loved and welcomed and happy to be here, then why in the hell can't any wayward do the same, even without having the very well explained advantages of position and access and authority that DS had?

Typically, HikingOut makes me feel like we are all in this together rowing at the same rate and time and direction, for example. She regularly leads the way in getting people to share.

I don't see this across the boards and there is this hostility that baffles me at times.

How dare anyone attack me for this thread?

What's so damn awful about me suggeeting a genrealized thread for WS's to have constructive feedback and interaction with BS's and vice versa wiithout it being "required" of them?

hikingout posted 12/13/2019 10:21 AM

Oy - some of this post seems to be going downhill and I do hate that because I do really believe Ceph's heart is in a good place. Looking for ways to bridge the BS and WS connection is definitely beneficial regardless of whether it's your spouse or not. If it weren't for some of the BS here, I am pretty sure I would be divorced. They gave me exactly what I needed to get clarity. So, that connection can never be understated.

Hiking...we aren't arguing, are we?

I didn't think so. But, I do believe that we were BOTH talking past each other.

I wasn't really hearing YOU needed it. I was hearing that you thought it would help us with our empathy. So, I guess I was just trying to explain to you my POV of this site. I feel like to come to a solution, all POV"s should be taken into consideration, and I didn't see that as not showing empathy. But, if you are asking for something you need, then I have great empathy for that. I am sorry to hear you have been depressed and overwhelmed. I reached out to you when you were here before as there were some really nasty exchanges that I think hurt you a lot.

And, I would love to understand how Deeply Scared was. I will look up some of her posts. I was saying it was hard to understand how this site was with her, but I don't think any of us really can step into those shoes - she was a founder! We have some really great guides and mods though!

I'm not saying anything of the kind.
But this is what I'm talking about right here.
I'm saying that BS's want to feel like we are understood and heard and we want to see reformed waywards show what reformed is supposed to look like

I can completely understand that.

We want to see you guys ask us things

I think this is where I get confused because I do feel we do that? At least the non-transient, non-newbies. I was trying to say that in my own verbose way, and maybe that was getting lost in translation? But, I also think there are a lot of BS who don't want that as well...


We want to see empathy practiced and exercised.
Would you mind starting a thread for me in the Wayward forum for "WS to BS/BS to WS" please? I LOVE the one that you started yourself that's WS to WS but I can't open such a thread on the Wayward forum and I'm jealous of what I see there.
And I don't want to start just a "BS to BS" thread. There's already a "Betrayed Menz" thread and those guys aren't my wife or wayward or necessarily empathy challenged.
If you or another former wayward don't feel comfy starting a thread in Wayward at my request, then let's talk about why that's a bad idea or a good one if we can.

I think it is great if someone else wants to do that. I personally do not, because I do ask questions and do outreach with BS. And, I feel like the WS to WS thread ends up seeming like it's my thread, and it flounders in some ways because of it belonging to someone. I am uncomfortable to start something new that it looks like I am leading.

As I have mentioned in my prior note, we did have someone start a thread like that in the WS forum a couple months back, and it really petered out quickly. And, the mods said that it never did well in ICR. I don't know that we have a big enough group of WS who have gotten to a place where they can do that. The BS stay longer, and almost all of the ones who ask in the ICR thread have been here a pretty long time.

So, please do not take the challenges I am presenting as lack of empathy though...okay?


Either way, we are likely to learn a lot more about one another in the process. And that's what I'm after really.

I do feel the same here.


I think you are a very fantastic part of SI. I really do. I'm not trying to make you feel argued with or shamed or anything of the sort! I want you and others to realize what you don't see about yourselves. I want us all to be happier and healthier on here.

Thank you for saying that. I don't think what I took as arguing was about me personally.


This isn't about you at all really. It's about what a BS has to deal with and what we see. And it's about what a WS doesn't have to deal with and doesn't see.

That puzzles me. I see it because I have a BS, and because I read almost all the BS posts. I interact with them, I do ask for their guidance. I think a lot of us do. Again, having a different observation is not about not having empathy though.


I am all for more relations, I do think we gravitate to people on the site who have similar situations. And that transcends BS/WS. We find people whose situation sounds like our own, or things we relate to. I state that in the case it spurs a creative thought that we all haven't had on the matter?

hikingout posted 12/13/2019 10:23 AM

Again I cross posted and missed a lot of these posts. I think this conversation took another good turn while I was trying to put my thoughts together. Thank you Ceph for a valuable discussion.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 10:29 AM

I do think it’s a good idea, but I wouldn’t want it become a thread where it’s open season on the WS’s who post.--Mrs. Walloped

All I’m saying is that just because we’re not reaching out to a BS on this site doesn’t mean we’re not. That shouldn’t be the yardstick.--Mrs. Walloped

And I agree with both of these statements very much as well.

some of you guys are seemingly about as shellshocked as I am, btw.

This is the very thing I'm trying to ERADICATE

We should not be at war or at odds for trying to get out of infidelity.

What is all the vitriol for?

Why are ya'll feeling this way?

I defended myself against feeling attacked or my thread not given proper consideration by Darknessfalls earlier but I am quite obviously reaching OUT to and even commending Waywards who are gracious!

Why is that a reason to feel attacked by me or to preemptively attack?

This is maybe way bigger of a problem than just how Cephastion feels right at this moment.

Maybe the mods aren't protecting you guys (WS/FWS's) nearly enough.

I don't know. It wasn't like this even just a year ago. What happened when I wasn't looking?

Did SI become a partisan warzone or something?

I used to be in the Wayward forum a LOT. Is it a DMZ now with BS's basically doing unauthorized air raids over there when the mods aren't looking or are too busy trying to put out the more obvious snipers and trolls in SI?

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 10:37 AM

If waywards or anyone else are "triggered" by a sense of being abused verbally or being treated unjustly or unfairly, then we need to dialogue about this openly.

I shouldn't have to be defending my own damn thread because people all feel attacked by me wanting us to have a better understanding of one another.

This needs some serious discussion much more than Ceph needs to feel reached out to.

There are a LOT of people looking for hope and support and answers on here.

And in fact, I would like to think that we all are.

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