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WS/fWS Questions for BS's--Part 1?

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Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 14:45 PM

Personally, I think it is unreasonable to have any expectations outside of the guidelines. Expectations create a need for a specific action. A specific action requires performance. Performance creates a need to adhere to a standard. Adherence to a standard displaces authenticity of the individual contributions. Authenticity is what makes SI great and valuable.

As usual, KingRat said it much better than I.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 14:53 PM

I also don't believe it is fair to MH especially but also others who had their own relationships with her, to use her to push an idea. That isn't a shot at you, Ceph, just a thought for us all.

Not fair to "use her to push an idea"??

This whole website is here because of her and MH and an idea getting pushed by her and MH!

I'm not using her to push an idea!

Fact: she made me and others feel welcomed and supported, as well as corrected at times.

Fact: She was a FWW.

Fact: I'm saying this as a BH.

Fact: Lots of people still respect her and her idea and legacy to this day.

Fact: it's almost Christmas time which is also when she died from cancer.

Fact: My own mom was a BW who died from cancer just a few days after Christmas time (Jan 3) just days before my 19th birthday.

Fact: I am lonely and miss the kind of support this time of year that typically comes from family and friends that are no longer alive or willing or available.

How in the hell am I USING HER to push my own ideas or agendas here?? By wanting there to be healthy dialogue between both BS's and WS's in a fully reciprocal sense rather than a factional bashing party system or divisive/silent avoidance or tendency thereof on this website that she and MH setup for just such a cause??

[This message edited by Cephastion at 2:54 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Loukas posted 12/13/2019 14:57 PM

Well, there we go...

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 14:59 PM

I feel we should all, BSs and WSs alike, be free from adhering to expectations to preserve the integrity of this space.

??

your post and logic here elude me entirely.

We all have LOTS of expectations of ourselves and others that we interact with.

Otherwise we'd just have total chaos, disrespect and anarchy.

I expect for someone not to spit in my face or mouth while I'm saying something, for example.

We all expect the mods to help keep people from breaking the rules with impunity for example.

Without such expectations, there would be nothing to have integrity towards or with.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 15:04 PM

Next, I'm curious, what would it look like to you, to share a different perception, without invalidated your own views?--Loukas

Would you mind simply sharing what it is that you are dancing around here?

I live on the same planet that you do. The way you are saying this seems rather demeaning to me as if I'm not even capable of critical thought or simple disagreements or civil discussion.

Did I insult you in some way before you insinuated that I was disrespectfully using Deeply Scared's persona and legacy to push a controversial agenda?

Well, there we go...--Loukas

What do you mean by this exactly?

It seems provocational and disrespectful to me at first reading and glance.

Am I mistaken? What am I doing to warrant such an attitude from you or possibly others if I am reading between the lines correctly here? I'm not interested in unwarranted obfuscations and obnoxious insinuations of wrongdoing or ignorance on my part just so someone can feel morally superior at the expense of my dignity or blinding pain.

Please explain yourself sir.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 3:09 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

KingRat posted 12/13/2019 15:09 PM

By wanting there to be healthy dialogue between both BS's and WS's in a fully reciprocal sense rather than a factional bashing party system or divisive/silent avoidance or tendency thereof on this website that she and MH setup for just such a cause??

That's what exists though. This is a passive website. Anyone who meets the minimum requirements for membership and follows the guidelines is free to post, read, or do neither. There is freedom of expression and thought that provides a relief for those who are seeking. MH and DS do not define SI; they have given that responsibility to the members. By not defining, it becomes everything a BS or WS may need. Take what you need and leave the rest. That concept is freedom; it is power. That is what makes this place special and rewarding to thousands.

[This message edited by KingRat at 3:10 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 15:11 PM

That's what exists though. This is a passive website, anyone who meets the minimum requirements for membership and follows the guidelines is free to post, read, or do neither. There is freedom of expression and thought that provides a relief for those who are seeking. MH and DS do not define SI; they have given that responsibility to the members. By not defining, it becomes everything a BS or WS may need. Take what you need and leave the rest. That concept is freedom; it is power. That is what makes this place special and rewarding to thousands.

Yes but what does any of that have to do with me honestly asking for dialogue via posting a topic about such on a public thread?

Loukas posted 12/13/2019 15:13 PM

Truthfully Ceph, I find it hard to have a dialogue with you. I feel as though I am constantly walking on eggshells, because simply challenging an idea of yours can cause you to become extremely defensive.

I have no beef with you. I'd love for nothing more than to see you develop the coping skills to grow through the tragedies you have suffered in your life. I mean that with all sincerity.

No I don't think you are incapable of critical thought. But I don't believe you are unwilling to see past your own pain to hear when folks are trying to reach out and offer a helping hand either.

In the back of my head this whole time reading this thread is verse Luke 6:41. I feel a need to share that with you.

I do hope we can actually have a dialogue free of defensiveness. I do actually care about your well-being, even if you don't believe that. But you do have a role in this as much as any of us.

[This message edited by Loukas at 3:15 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 15:19 PM

Yes but what does any of that have to do with me honestly asking for dialogue via posting a topic about such on a public thread?

Because you seem to be shaming those who are not interested in participating in the way you are requesting. Earlier in the thread, you insinuated that we WSs who wonít comply with your request:

- lack courage

- are not reformed

- are lacking in empathy

- are disrespecting DSís legacy by not reaching out as she did

You seem to not see that validation of your feelings in the specific way you are looking for is not something you are entitled to.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 3:22 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 15:25 PM

I do hope we can actually have a dialogue free of defensiveness. I do actually care about your well-being, even if you don't believe that. But you do have a role in this as much as any of us.

Loukas, I hear you accusing me and that is partly why I am "defensive" but you aren't actually answering any of my questions or saying anything of any substance other than insinuating that I'm just "wrong" without telling me what the hell I'm wrong ABOUT.

If you can't simply tell me what this different perspective is that I'm unwilling to hear or to entertain and take for a test drive is, then you aren't saying anything that I don't think ANYONE on here can likely understand or make any use of.

Again, I ask you to explain yourself instead of simply throwing verbal rocks at me for no known or stated reason.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 15:27 PM

Because you seem to be shaming those who are not interested in participating in the way you are requesting. Earlier in the thread, you insinuated that we WSs who wonít comply with your request:

- lack courage

- are not reformed

- are lacking in empathy

- are disrespecting DSís legacy by not reaching out as she did

You seem to not see that validation of your feelings in the specific way you are looking for is not something you are entitled to.

THANK YOU finally, Darkness Falls!

Ok now I see what was upsetting to you. I want to first thank you for explaining yourself. Next I will post a qualifying response so that you hopefully we can come to terms on this issue.

Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 15:32 PM

To summarize: no one here owes anyone dialogue, or anything at all except adherence to the guidelinesóbut it appeared as though that is what you were implying. Just leave people be and let them use SI in whatever way works for them. We all need to take what we need and leave the rest.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 3:49 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

KingRat posted 12/13/2019 15:36 PM

You seem to not see that validation of your feelings in the specific way you are looking for is not something you are entitled to.

And with all due respect, it is not demonstrating empathy. I'm not attacking you, but I feel it needs to be pointed out.

As far as the your question, I believe wifehad5 gave a good explanation. But the follow up question regarding WSs asking you or any BH specific questions: We are not allowed to start threads asking specific members questions and are to use the PM feature. You can start a thread about a general topic and WSs may ask questions regarding the subject matter thereof.

Regarding comparing DS to other WSs and how each interacts is apples-and-oranges because the she was the founder and we are members. She was the metaphoric hostess, and we are all her guests.

[This message edited by KingRat at 3:41 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

EllieKMAS posted 12/13/2019 15:41 PM

The ebb and flow on this thread are interesting to me...

I have found a lot of empathy and support here on SI. Is it perfect? No. Are there some times that I feel a lack of empathy? Sure. But in an overall sense, I have found SI to be instrumental in my own processing. And the support I have gotten here has helped me stay sane in navigating all of this.

There are quite a few WS's that I really like here on SI. Their insights and opinions have helped me probably more than they know. I don't often post over in Waywards, but if I feel like I have something constructive to add to the conversation, I will. If I get too triggered, I do what the SI admin say to do and step away. For a WS coming here and opening themselves up to the judgement and mercy of this community, there is no purpose to be served IMHO by attacking them. And even if some of them make me angry at times, I do have respect for the fact that they are at least here trying (I made a post outlining just this thought process a month or so ago).

I am very cognizant of the fact that people who are finding SI are in the beginning extremely raw and that is the truth no matter whether they are a WS or a BS. In the beginning I think everyone finds this place to get support for their own pain and their own situation. That is how it should be because it takes time on SI to process and to get to a place where one is even open to other perspectives.

For me, it took me damn near a year before I could read over in waywards and not be just blindly angry. During that year, I know I would have felt really violated and angry if a WS had asked me questions. Not saying that I don't see some benefit in such a thread, but just that some BS's may not ever get to a place where they could field questions from WS with empathy instead of angst - and I am not saying that in a blame/shame way, just stating a fact. And because there is no way to gauge when/if a BS would be ready to handle questions from a WS, it makes setting something like that up rather tricky.

FWIW, I definitely see some instances of people not being empathetic on SI, but by and large I see a LOT more instances of people offering support than not. And that is on both sides and across the aisle. And for those that are not empathetic? Well, I just remember that infidelity is incredible painful and traumatic and that the OP may be hurting or dealing with things we don't know. So I take posts like that with a grain of salt.

Just my 0.02.

WalkinOnEggshelz posted 12/13/2019 15:48 PM

*******posting as a member******

Admittedly, I have only read the first 2 pages of this thread so I apologize if this seems a little out of place for the discussion. I just feel like something important needs to be addressed

Cephastion, I am sorry that you are struggling and clearly looking for something to help ease some pain. It seems that you are grasping for answers or feelings from the community here that in reality you can only get from your own WW.

You have posed a question to begin a thread. You have received replies from some WS as to why they would not be comfortable with that request. You then dared them to do so. They again, have given you explanation as to why it may not be something of interest. Rather than accepting this, you brought DeeplyScared in as a pawn in your argument.

Deeply Scared was a FWS herself and became such a celebrated outreach-minded part of this whole SI thing. I see waywards on SI dealing with other waywards and also responding to specific Q & A style interactions from BS's and such, I guess... but I don't see the kind of empathy and reform and reconciliation exuberance that I saw in her and in a few others. Maybe it's me. Maybe it's there and I'm not looking in all the right places for it. I don't know...

I wonít pretend that DSís passing had an impact on the site. When she spoke, people listened. She was tough when she needed to be, but mostly she was kind. She brought an energy to a room (even on the internet). So yes, she is deeply missed.

She fought for what she believed in, particularly the Wayward Forum. This site is unique in large because it even exists. The fact that the WS community has a protected area to be able to work through their darkest times is unheard of on any other site. Not everyone believes that such a place should be available to WSís let alone have stop signs to protect them. The WS community can at any time begin a thread without that stop sign, inviting BS members to comment.

Please tell me Cephastion, how is this not WSís asking questions of BS? They are there. They are trying to figure out how and why they have managed to hurt the person that has meant so much to them. They are trying to put pieces back together. They are trying to understand who they are and how to process and proceed in healing themselves and their BSís to the best of their ability.

Most of the time when members first come here, they have no idea just how big infidelity is. They have no idea how much of their lives it will touch. They certainly donít know what questions to ask. Most of the time, the story unfolds and healing occurs in increments. Each piece needs to be processed for BS and WS alike.

Asking the WS community to be responsible for demonstrating remorse and empathy for your benefit seems like an ask that is too big.

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying, but I feel like you are asking to change the site that DS helped create because what she created doesnít fit what you want from this site right now.

Iíve been here a fairly long time. I can not tell you how many threads have been created discussing the climate of the site and how things have changed or how they should be different. In reality, itís not the site that has changed, but the members in it. We perceive things differently as we change and grow. We are (or arenít) drawn to specific topics as our needs change. In other words, sometimes we see what we want.

I canít tell you how much I read this website. I see acts of kindness every single day, from all sides. Yes, there is vitriol at times, but we are dealing with a topic that literally drives people to murder and suicide. Itís not a topic that can be taken lightly.

So again Cephastion, I truly am sorry for the pain that brought you here. What you are requesting, isnít appropriate.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 15:48 PM

First of all, I said that I would like questions and dialogue.

Just because I think DS is like the Mother Teresa of Waywards doesn't mean that anyone who isn't Mother Theresa is just a steaming pile of shit.

Secondly, unreformed waywards are oftentimes cowards in my opinion. I didn't say that all waywards are unreformed. Quite the contrary in fact. It was a kind of challenge. I was challenging people to examine themselves and put their money where their mouth is and actually just ask a damn question on my stupid thread that was asking for such.

There's no reason to go to a political convention just to raise hell and disrespect the people who are actually there to support a candidate.

If you don't like my thread or request, then fine. I'm an American. You have the right to disagree. But I don't go on your threads or King Rat's threads just to kick sand in your faces or heckle and tell you all how wrong you are for having the audacity to ask for feedback on your own damn thread!

I guess I had that "expectation" to have the right to author a damn thread that asks for support and for the thread to be "allowed" to be defined by the original damn poster and author of it! Why is that so upsetting to my detractors? And if you are not "my detractors", then why just come on here to say you resent or resist or have a problem with what I'm trying to accomplish here??

I don't go to your threads and tell you how "you just don't get it, do ya...(shaking my head in disrespectful disdain) tsk, tsk, tsk....poor misguided wayward...such a shame..."

I have the right to brag on HikingOut and DS if I want to. Last time I checked, it's actually flaming and insulting others that's theoretically prohibited on here. I find it remarkable that others want to insult me for bragging on other succesfully reconciled and reformed waywards!

I mean, WTF?!

You are lacking in empathy in the case of me and this thread, DarknessFalls..other than the fact that you at least explained to me in clear English what your grievances with me and this thread are.

I NEVER said anything about anyone disrespecting DS or her legacy. Although I guess violating her example by doing the opposite kind of thing on her website could theoretically give off that vibe if one were to actually do such a thing consistently without taking heed to any warnings from mods or others against such ongoing actions.

I am not a mod or admin or guide. My opinions are that you all have the chance to make a person feel warm and welcome or else flamed and insulted whether they be a BS or a WS or a platypus or Mad hattering, open marriage four-some.

You can disagree with that if you any of you wish to do so, but I have to go sell my goats now if there's still time to get them to market.

Darkness Falls posted 12/13/2019 15:54 PM

I am washing my hands of this flaming dumpster fire right here. I am not the only one telling you what Iím telling you, yet you insist on defensiveness and victimhood with regard to this thread. Keep at it; Iím out.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 16:01 PM

I can't understand what all the conflict is about on here. I just can't right now.

I will gladly respond to what I read from Wifehad5's (ETA:Walkingoneggshells I mean, not WOES) post when we cross posted but I feel so damn misunderstood by this whole thing.

None of this makes any sense to me at all.

I reach out to waywards a LOT even if not always on here, per se.

But I will not accept that I'm using Deeply Scared as a pawn.

I resent that in fact. I don't know what the hell everyone is smoking right now but I wasn't coming on here to say anything bad about SI or the climate at all.

I said that my wife said it was my special precious friend basically. She's even jealous at how highly I regard it and the people on it.

I don't know what the hell is going on but I thought there was respect on here for people in pain and for giving thread topics and their posters their due is someone posts on those threads.

At least Wifehad5's (ETA: WOES, not Wifehad5) vilification of me was relatively honest sounding and given with the qualifier that he might be misunderstanding me.

You most certainly are misunderstanding me. Most ALL of you are very grossly misunderstanding me, it seems.

[This message edited by Cephastion at 4:08 PM, December 13th (Friday)]

KingRat posted 12/13/2019 16:03 PM

your post and logic here elude me entirely.

I edited my response to insert "individual" because that was the meaning I wished to convey.


I guess I had that "expectation" to have the right to author a damn thread that asks for support and for the thread to be "allowed" to be defined by the original damn poster and author of it! Why is that so upsetting to my detractors? And if you are not "my detractors", then why just come on here to say you resent or resist or have a problem with what I'm trying to accomplish here??

I don't go to your threads and tell you how "you just don't get it, do ya...(shaking my head in disrespectful disdain) tsk, tsk, tsk....poor misguided wayward...such a shame..."

Dude?!?! Just because I may have a different opinion does not amount to me being upset or "kicking sand in your face." I never mocked you, used sarcasm, or treated you with contempt; my responses were objectively respectful. We are attempting to have a dialogue but it seems that it is not possible. I should have followed Loukas's lead. I don't want to aggravate you further. So with that, I'm out. I wish you peace and healing.

Cephastion posted 12/13/2019 16:10 PM

this is one of those times I just want to fucking be dead already

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