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Burn the Witch!!!

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ChamomileTea posted 8/8/2020 20:26 PM

There’s no need to apologize for using terms like “cuckoldry” and “cuckold.” It’s only because the alt-right has misused this term that people get the wrong idea.

It’s simply a long-used term to describe the particular phenomenon of a betrayed husband.

Like “adultery” it does still at least have the value of icy water and feels a bit more bracing than more sanitized terms.

That is why I use it. Not to be cruel. But because it cuts through.

Cuts through to what though?... a new BH's shame?

I have a relatively large vocabulary, and when I want to "cut through", I don't have any problem getting it done without using terminology that I suspect might be injurious. No telling how many times I've actually hurt someone's feelings on accident, but when I can avoid inflammatory language, I do.

Here's what I was hoping some of you guys would notice if you hashed through a bit of "Burn the Witch"... it's that you're inadvertently hurting each other. I was PROUD of my husband until he cheated on me. It wasn't until a year or so after DDay that I noticed how big the difference was. I started noticing "my husband said this" and "my husband did that" creep back into my conversation. But when it would, I stopped myself cold. I hadn't realized how often I talked about him before that. But after DDay, the words just dried up in my mouth.

I don't have to tell any of you how these guys FEEL when they get here. You already know. But I do think that years out from the raw, we forget how fresh the wound is, and that they MEAN IT when they say "I still love my wife". Most of them were PROUD of that wife before DDay. And I think that most are shamed when met with such assertions as "she couldn't wait to spread her legs for the OM". God forbid that they do decide they want to try R despite all the advice to the contrary they've had. I think most of those ones just disappear, too afraid to tell us that they want to try and therefore unsupported. And don't get me wrong. I'm in R, but I'm not about R. If I could only give one bit of advice to the newly betrayed, it would be: "File for divorce. Mean it. And if the WS can catch up and effectively convince you otherwise, then consider R."

I was hoping that in contemplation of "Burn the Witch", maybe some folks would work out that it's not just about gender bias (although I think there is some), it's about the BH who's still ATTACHED to that witch and how he gets scorched at the burning. I see wonderful commentary by people like Okokok and Sissoon who don't have to use crudity and shaming to make their points. And... I do NOT think there's any malicious intent. I think everybody just legitimately want to help.

I don't think it's enough to say, "men are men and women are women". We are not so bound to biology that we can't use the higher thinking we have at our human disposal.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 9:48 PM, August 8th (Saturday)]

ChamomileTea posted 8/8/2020 20:50 PM

When women in this site say that you have to be a woman to understand the deep and complicated societal history we have with men feeling entitled to our bodies, we get dismissed. We're told that we're misandrist, we're imagining it, and that expecting a wife to do certain things in the bedroom has nothing to do with ownership or control.

Move along to another thread, and we are told that you have to be a man to understand the deep emasculation that a man feels when the woman he owns is "invaded" by another man. He's wired to see her as his property, and we just need to understand and accept that. Apparently no woman can comprehend the depth of male revulsion at the idea that his property was breached and seeded by another man's DNA.

I'm so tired of hearing men tell me that men know men's minds and experience better than women do, that men also know women's minds and experience better than women do, and that men comprehend the implications of what both genders decide to do with their bodies better than women do. I'd be interested to see if any of the men promulgating these theories will acknowledge any case or circumstance where a woman might have a superior understanding of human psychology or greater depth of personal pain than a man.

Great post, BSR. While I believe that both husbands and wives can typically be described as "proprietary" when it comes to their spouse, I do think that sometimes we're seeing something a bit darker. We all say "my" when we talk about our husband or wife, but I KNOW that I don't own my WH. He's not mine. I can't tell him what to do and he only listens to me when he wants to. And don't get me wrong, I don't think that there's anything nefarious about it, not these days anyway. I just think that many men are unaware of how much "ownership" they're taking with their wives.

Babette2008 posted 8/8/2020 21:09 PM

I’m glad I waited this long to post. This has been an interesting exchange. It is always challenging to separate individual experience from group observations. Are bio males and bio females different- sure we have different organs different hormones. Does society treat the male gender and the female gender differently- absolutely. But as individuals we are all over the spectrum. Teasing out what is biology and what is environmental is way beyond the pay grade of SI. On average men are faster and stronger than women, but there are plenty of women who are faster and stronger than my H. I do math and my H writes poetry. I guess my point is that everyone who comes to SI is an individual . This place turns into a shitshow when people start imposing their worldview on new arrivals rather than meeting people where they are. There are some universal truths - the cheaters handbook if you will - but these are really not gendered. Cheaters lie, TT is likely, you can’t R with someone actively cheating and it takes two to R. This info, when presented by folks who have experience is really powerful. It can feel really isolating to be cheated on. It is hard to talk about. SI is a place you can go where you know that people share your experience.

Because of that I hope that SI folks will also keep in mind that not every pairing on SI is Male-Female. Generalizations about how M/F pairings are balanced or complete are not respectful to those on SI whose orientations are different. My understanding is that SI is about helping folks who have been cheated on by a romantic partner survive and move forward. It doesn’t matter if that partner is same sex or opposite sex, the pain is still the same. Even if you come from a belief system that doesn’t recognize same sex romantic relationships or you aren’t comfortable with them, I would hope that you could acknowledge that someone who has been cheated on by someone they loved and trusted will be in pain and is here for our support to recover from that pain.

And yes, for the record, I sometimes think that some threads on SI especially those where the discovery is unfolding in real time become more like soap operas than legit advice. It’s easy to get caught up in the drama and forget that these are real people.

EllieKMAS posted 8/8/2020 22:06 PM

It doesn’t matter if that partner is same sex or opposite sex, the pain is still the same.

DevastatedDee posted 8/8/2020 22:20 PM

But you always know if your child is actually yours or not. No matter what.

Yes, that is one thing that a BH experiences that a BW cannot. That is a horrifying reality, that men wind up needing to DNA test their children.

DevastatedDee posted 8/8/2020 22:25 PM

Because of that I hope that SI folks will also keep in mind that not every pairing on SI is Male-Female.

That! Thank you! I forgot to mention that when I was all pissed off and ranting, lol. But yes, be it two men or two women or a man and a woman, the pain is the same. You read their words and you know that pain. It's the same.

DevastatedDee posted 8/8/2020 22:26 PM

Dee You and me could be buddies

I have every expectation that we would be in real life.

Babette2008 posted 8/8/2020 22:58 PM

No need to thank me. The hyper-gendered stuff really triggers me. I’m sorry but I refuse to believe that there is inherently any more pain in discovering your wh or your ws had a child with the AP.

My observation is that men who have inadvertently raised a OC tend to love that child the same as if it were their bio child. And why wouldn’t they? That child is as much theirs as any adopted child would be, if not more so because they raised it as their own from the moment it was born. Just imagine if you discovered that your child had been switched at birth by accident at the hospital. Would you take it back so you could get the “right” one? I’m not saying that you wouldn’t be angry at your ww. Women who discover that their partner has an OC tend to get a child they aren’t bonded to, whose mother is the AP and who is seen as an emotional and financial drain on the M. Not a great situation and there are no benefits to the BW.

I have yet to see the man on SI who truly resents the resources they put into a child they raised that they discovered Isn’t their biological child. Angry at the lies, yes. Love the child, yes.

So many people here tell the WH to DNA test their kids, not seeming to appreciate that a lot of men love their children and don’t want to risk weakening that bond, especially if the M is falling apart. Repeatedly I have seen men ask posters to stop with the recommendations to DNA test their kids.

crazyinlove1995 posted 8/8/2020 23:29 PM

Chamomile..I read only your post..I have no idea of your backckground,how long your married when you dealt with betrayal...whatever er..It doesn't. Matter.
I joined this fabulous club in 2016 after 20 years of marriage.10 years after death of Our daughter..There is no difference in male or female....pain.dissruption fucking someoneove whateever..I think Crock of shit when Anybody male females black white green gay..wtf ever. .is being abused..This shits got to stop
.Are you human?..Let's stop this shit you hurt me more I'm perfect...You were hurt by betrayel..CHEATING..help someone that is not Maybe as strong as you to move on..Not ridicule.shaming.Which in the case of cheating is probably deserved.Or we wouldn't be here.....
Peace

crazyinlove1995 posted 8/8/2020 23:35 PM

one more thing Every fucki/ng one of us are ashamed if you are here BS/ Ws.I assume...There are Raw te.perments on both sides.
Everyone deals wit it the best they can...I doubt..that after being cheated on you looked at your fucking husband..and said..Yeah what a great catch..He is special..If you did your stronger then most.
Peace

crazyinlove1995 posted 8/8/2020 23:53 PM

SO now I read a little more....of this thread I have no Idea what you plan to get out ofthis.You are not a man...You are not a man....Its great you accepted your man.plus his cheating..Where how do you know what it's like to be A man..
I dont get this..You love your husband..
IN2016 ..Did you want to burn the dickhead (butch)to the ground..???or say he is greatusbandz?
I was gonna try fix post I'm on phone.
Wtf..Threads like this is what's wrong with our world...

whatIknowNow posted 8/9/2020 06:05 AM

Once social engineering (and I do NOT use that term in a pejorative sense) veered from "men and women are equals" to "men and women are the same", well the shit hit the fan because the latter isn't remotely true.

[This message edited by whatIknowNow at 6:06 AM, August 9th (Sunday)]

fareast posted 8/9/2020 06:37 AM

Thanks for this CT. I get your point. I think there are always ways I need to reflect on my approach and the words I use posting. Are they helpful or counterproductive to helping a BS. I am sure at times I have let my outrage or anger in reading how cruel a WS has behaved that I spewed vitriol that was counter productive to helping a new BS-BH or BW. It never hurts to reflect on whether I am using words to satisfy my own outrage or to project my own anger for my own WS, or to actually help and support a new BS. I think there are many who read through to the end of the thread who will get your point. Thanks.

[This message edited by fareast at 6:44 AM, August 9th (Sunday)]

ShutterHappy posted 8/9/2020 06:41 AM

CT,

Did you get answers you were looking for?

A lot of posts here, in this thread, is about how men and women are misunderstood, and how unfair this or that is... and very little posts about how to address (interact?) with new BH.

And I think that most are shamed when met with such assertions as "she couldn't wait to spread her legs for the OM".

Not sure about shame, but I’m sure it doesn’t help. Not in JFO. When a BH writes this, I wonder if he really means “my WW couldn’t wait to spread her legs for the OM and I’m very angry about it, so I’ll make you angry too”

deephurt posted 8/9/2020 07:22 AM

I don’t read here as often as I used to however, I can’t say that I have seen ww being vilified more than wh’s.

I also don’t believe men feel more betrayed or have more mind movies. Maybe I am an exception to the bw rule. I am six years out and have them every god damn day. I have trouble touching my wh because I know where he has been and how little he cared about me during his a. I think about the dna he exposed me to everyday also and have been having dreams that there is an oc out there somewhere that I don’t know about. I think about the fact that there may, and probably are more ap’s our there and the sex acts they did together including ones that may it may not have been done are the subject of my mind movies most is the time. I know our win is ours. I think he is comparing me daily to the ap, I also am the the one who takes care of our finances and know that I would land on my feet if we were divorce so don’t feel either would be better off if we were to d.

I can’t feel emasculated since I am female but whatever that would be for a woman is exactly how I feel and time has lessened some of the feelings and mind movies but certainly have not disappeared. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

I consider it more that I have a very strong moral code and I am betraying myself in a way by sticking this out but I love him and he does appear to have changed and become the partner I ways deserved.

What I do notice as a difference between bh’s and bw’s on this site is that the bh’s seem to support each other and collectively jump on the posts to try to help and support where we women are not quite as “collective”. Some female posters get loads of responses and others get less support. Most men’s get loads of support in here.

Other than bh’s almost always getting more support than a lot of wh’s, I don’t really see much difference. I find most posters now are supporting run and get d over r but that seems to change over the years.

I haven’t read a lot lately though so I am commenting on what I have been reading for the past several years and not as much recent postings

siracha posted 8/9/2020 08:50 AM

Women are not exactly strangers to vulgarity but typically doesnt strike us as useful to verbally re enact another womans physical betrayal to her .Perhaps because Language itself has misogynistic roots and telling her the husband “spread his legs” doesnt exactly demean the husband and does hurt her in the process
I think the emasculation and biologic offspring concepts are valid and certainly can explain why caeteris paribus BHs might have more rage.i dont think anger is the wrong strategy when you are headed for a quick divorce like alot of the BH s here, in the short term it can lend you clarity of purpose
However both genders have to listen to the posters needs and when the poster has specifically told everyone they are leaning towards R or that they still believe their WW is a good person thats when the sexualized shit talking and rage provoking Is counterproductive

ShutterHappy posted 8/9/2020 09:47 AM

i dont think anger is the wrong strategy when you are headed for a quick divorce

Some Men can do acts of violence when angry and you don’t really know who that newly minted BH is.

“I got really angry at my WW and I hit/pushed her lightly. It’s just that she bruises so easily”

Furthermore, some WS will say they are D period! Then change their minds later (or the opposite, they want to R, then change their mind). So, as we help new BH, we can’t assume they will D or R... until you see that post in the D forum.

How about we encourage the new BH to be firm, take no BS and calm ?

“WS, I do not accept a 3rd party in my marriage. I do not accept blame, minimizing and gas lighting. Those are my conditions for R (....) and they are non-negociable.”

“ WS, I do not accept a 3rd party in my marriage. I do not accept blame, minimizing and gas lighting. This is why I will go through with D proceeding. Please do not contact me unless it’s about the children or George the pet snail 🐌”

Limboaz posted 8/9/2020 09:57 AM

I would venture to say that the consensus is that there are gender related differences when it comes to adultery.

If the WW cheats, it is more likely to end in divorce than if the WH cheats. There are several reasons for this. Women are more likely to be involved in an exit affair. Women are often much more emotionally attached to their AP. Women are more likely to continue the affair after D-day.
Because of this, I think it is unreasonable to expect the advice given to BH's and BW's to be the same because the dynamics are often (but not always) different.

Also, my impression is that men are more likely to post in a BH thread than a BW thread, and if they do post, they are likely to be careful how they word things and how they present things.

When women in this site say that you have to be a woman to understand the deep and complicated societal history we have with men feeling entitled to our bodies, we get dismissed.

What historical time frame are you referring to? The Dark ages? Caveman days? To be completely honest this strikes me as a sexist statement that unfairly stereotypes men.

Overall I would say the reason SI is so awesome is because the BS is going to get a range of opinions, which gives them a more complete picture of what their options are. I think the supposed "Burn the Witch!!!" bias is a non-issue. If you think too many people are recommending D, put your best argument forward as to why you think R should be considered.

As for me personally, I view both cheating men and cheating women with equal contempt.

[This message edited by Limboaz at 10:02 AM, August 9th (Sunday)]

siracha posted 8/9/2020 10:07 AM

SH
All your points are valid and well taken . Specially when it comes to physical violence - a moral crime far worse than infidelity
I would just add that emotional authenticity is important ; even unfair emotions or loud ones can help another person gain some perspective , sometimes the opposite of whats intended

OwningItNow posted 8/9/2020 11:05 AM

I love that approach, ShutterHappy--firm yet calm boundaries post-dday. I'm not sure a brand new BS can always see the value early on, but it is certainly great advice.

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