SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

These things tend to ebb and flow. Right now, we lean to burning WW's at the stake first and ask questions later.

Without any empirical evidence, this is a ridiculous white knighting assertion.

If you have statistics, let's see them. If it's just your opinion, please state so.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:24 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Dictum Veritas:

Let's just say, men almost invariably do not retain and bring home DNA which might be present inside the body for at least 10 to 14 days, possibly, speculatively for life (micro-chimerism) which might result in a possible unknown fraudulent legal and financial commitment for at least 18 to 21 years.

This invokes a visceral and primal emotion in men which is on such a base level, we find it all but impossible not to react to.

He has a very profound point which cannot be denied and goes well beyond a betrayal of trust.

It is estimated that 2-3 percent of fathers are unknowingly raising children that are not biologically theirs.

Yet, the children’s mothers are knowingly deceiving the father by hiding the truth.

At the same time, an adulterous man may impregnate the affair partner thus, possibly forcing a BW to share her husband with another family for a minimum of 18-21 years as well as funds and resources being diverted from her family and children to her WH’s other family.

But, at least, no one is being deceived as to paternity.

In the end, they are both shit people.

Let's just say, men almost invariably do not retain and bring home DNA which might be present inside the body for at least 10 to 14 days, possibly, speculatively for life (micro-chimerism) which might result in a possible unknown fraudulent legal and financial commitment for at least 18 to 21 years.

This invokes a visceral and primal emotion in men which is on such a base level, we find it all but impossible not to react to.

We can speculate whether this is unjust or hurtful. It certainly is from the perspective of a betrayed wife, who is suffering very real and very personal pain, but the factual imbalanced biological impact on a betrayed husband can not be denied.

Great point, and in fact, women's bodies are able to commingle male genital microbiomes with their own in a way men who have sex with other women cannot -- meaning that a betrayed man is typically tricked into a rape/non consensual threesome or foursome with other men's genital microbiomes, not just their semen.

Disgust indeed.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:23 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Without any empirical evidence, this is a ridiculous white knighting assertion.

If you have statistics, let's see them. If it's just your opinion, please state so.

Chill, amigo.

Stating my observations. Feel free to disagree.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 10:26 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Chill, amigo.

Meaning you don't have any empirical evidence to back up this assertion. Which is okay. I don't expect you to. It would be quite a project.

You're free to have an opinion. I do disagree.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:31 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

Then we shall respectfully disagree. On my way for a stroll. Have a pleasant evening.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 10:36 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

I have to admit I had a different mindset about BHs until I joined this site. MY opinion doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things...but I have come to see that BHs are the STRONGEST men EVER . A BH has stayed faithful...most even after they have been cheated on...and to ME...that is very admirable!

Thank you, Want2BHappyAgain, ever the optimist in a group of hurting, angry, grieving, wounded people. It must be tough. As always, admirable and like a salve.

Men who show up here wanting paternity test ARE EATEN ALIVE by women posters telling them they are wrong.

Thank you Prissy4lyfe, in fact we just saw this precise phenomenon play out in the Wayward forum. A BH who simply had doubts after new information emerged Ipost divorce even) and wanted a paternity test was castigated repeatedly.

I will only add the advice that I received after outing my WH.

Female friends advised, “get out, get rid of him and Divorce the serial cheater“

Male friends advised “get yourself a boy toy and revenge affair. Get even with him”

Needless to say I listen to my own heart and follow my own moral compass. I refused to become the Witch.

Affairs are a lose, lose situation. Any WS will tell you that nobody wins.

So if a BH doesn’t have kids or his wife cannot bear children the pain is less?

I wouldn't say less, but let's consider the example of a young BH with no kids. A lot of us would say his WW unwittingly did him a favor. It is painful, but the young BH will go out in the world unfettered without worrying about the damage a divorce will do to kids.

And he will meet many fine, wonderful women who will never do to him what his WW did. He'll understand better the warning signs. He may have trepidation at first, but I'm optimistic in those cases he will find a quality woman with character and have a better life. Certainly much better than if he had stayed with a young WW.

How many of us would like a time machine to go back in time and run away from our WW's leaving them weeping at the wedding altar? Or refuse that first date? Or simply never to have met them at all?

Is the BH's pain less in this case? I don't know, but it is qualitatively different. It doens't have the layers of complexity and mind puzzles that a BH with kids and a mortgage and years of marriage has -- facing child support, alimony, and impoverishment in the face of a woman's heartless betrayal.

I think we can all agree on that.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:48 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

I agree with Prissy. And I think the reasons are more complex than biology and misogyny. But here are some of the things I've frequently seen:

- BH are held to a different standard than BWs. They are more likely to be expected to suck it up and make a choice. More likely to be blamed when R is not working even when their WW is being blatantly disrespectful. More likely to be talked out of D even when their WW is not a great candidate for R. It's like most people expect a BH has to make a choice quickly and stick to it no matter what and no matter what choice they make, someone seems overly upset about it. I find that the posts in BHs threads to be far more shame-y and far less focused on what the BH wants and more what they should do.

- The need for the BH to act decisively causes posters to feel the need to post more extremely and I think this is a reason why you see graphic, unnecessary descriptions of the WW's actions. They are not necessarily posted to say anything about the WW as much as they are being posted to illicit a certain response from the BH.

- BH are more likely to defend their WW even when she doesn't deserve it and I think it makes posters want to be more harsh in their posts in order to open their eyes. I see a similar amount of harshness towards WH who are defended by their BWs here. It's just not as common and therefore less recognized.

- WW are far less likely to be labeled as abusive even when they are physically abusive and BHs are not given the same advice to GTFO either. What is being seen as "burning the witch" may actually just be an elaborate response to something that would be pointed out as abusive in a thread about a WH without the elaboration but given the same seriousness and weight.

- BHs are less likely to be given the benefit of the doubt whether it's an abuse accusation, refusing to contribute to R, or any other kind of accusation the same way BWs are. Even some WWs are given the benefit of the doubt over their BH when both post here despite the WWs have a poor recent track record of truth telling and a history of re-writing. This often leads to more posters choosing sides and backing one or the other and I don't see that happening nearly as often when a BW and WH both post here. Can't blame people for going with their gut when each is saying something different but I think it just adds more to the general feeling of there already being a gap between how BWs and BHs are treated in general on SI.

This attitude actually lead to one of my favorite male posters quitting SI for good. He got almost as much hate as he did support for D'ing his WW. Even mean PMs. And he didn't do even one single thing wrong other than decide R wasn't for him after TT, broken NC, and some particularly cruel things his WW did during the A. No abuse, no RA, no secret infidelity in his past. Some people were just that upset with him that he didn't choose R because they thought his WW sounded remorseful and she was also a poster here. And it wasn't like he made his choice in haste either. He has been saying the A may have been a dealbreaker from the beginning. The further issues were just shit icing on the shit cake he decided he was done eating. To this day I don't really understand why some posters felt the need to shame him for making a choice that many others are supported in other than some people felt very strongly about choosing to be team WW in his case and may not have been seeing that they were kicking a fellow BS when they were down.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 10:51 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

At the same time, an adulterous man may impregnate the affair partner thus, possibly forcing a BW to share her husband with another family for a minimum of 18-21 years as well as funds and resources being diverted from her family and children to her WH’s other family.

Kanye has some pitch perfect lyrics about this.. Still true 15 years after he wrote them.

It's like most people expect a BH has to make a choice quickly and stick to it no matter what and no matter what choice they make, someone seems overly upset about it. I find that the posts in BHs threads to be far more shame-y and far less focused on what the BH wants and more what they should do.

Spot on, and I thank God you are here, nekonamida. Seriously. Your insights have meant so very much along the way.

Feel free to burn the WH at the stake. The BH will supply the wood.

I have not seen a BH come to the defense ever where it is not uncommon for the BW to defend the WW.

Laws favor women as they should. This can cause problems for innocent men.

The research from Glass and many others found that the majority of WH were happy to very happy in their marriage the flip was true for WW.

A Bh must legally protect himself. A BY must deal with someone who is not happy with him or the marriage.

Yes it is noticeable, simply because betrayed men have virtually zero resources for help outside of SI...I’ve never seen anything nearly as helpful. Whereas society in general is quick to help women in need far more.

Commonly in modern society male cheaters are reviled, and rightfully so, however the betrayed male is most often blamed for any matter of failures. This is unacceptable and likely adds to the frustration and effort displayed here by many of our members.

The anger and frustration caused by a system that is commonly anti-male, and rewards infidelity through the use of “no fault” divorces is a cancer on our society, so much so I tell everyone I know that’s considering marriage to get an iron clad prenup. Outside of that, I commonly warn against marriage completely, especially for men.

If I could do any one thing in my life over, I would have stayed unmarried forever.

Yeah I’m a little jaded, but how could anyone affected by infidelity not be?

What say you SI? Are WW's treated with more contempt than WH's???

Yes. In my opinion, absolutely. And it is strictly piled on by BH. This thread is a perfect example.

When a BH starts a thread, other BH will load the thread with their thoughts. It is often 75% or more BH comments, much like this thread. BW, in my observation, are as likely to help a posting BH as a posting BW, but BH are drawn toward other BH who are posting. These are general truths and not indicative of any certain BH because some post everywhere, but it is common for other BH who post less to only do so in BH threads.

So the input is generally from the BH in the first place, and what is the advice? It's almost always, "Leave. She isn't remorseful. She enjoys other men more than you. You're a fool." Seneca's recent thread comes to mind.

The additional issue is while BH clearly lay the blame at the feet of their WW, it seems most threads on hating the AP are started by BW. So the WW get the lion's share of the blame for illicit sex no matter who is condemning it. The issue is far larger than SI. I don't think the BH here are different than men anywhere, in my estimation. It's only my point of view after many years reading here and elsewhere.

I don't feel sorry for WW as much as I feel sorry for BH trying to think clearly about their WW. I think it can be very difficult to come here for advice and to share, knowing that your thread will be overrun with BH posting graphic descriptions of what they "know" your WW enjoyed and how she's not the least bit remorseful. I honestly feel like, in the quest to win the mind of the BH, another BH will actually try to strip away the last of the poor guy's self-esteem. I mean, "She's making a fool of you! Man up!" feels like a betrayal of one man by another man. How can they kick someone when they are down like that and try to justify it as "I just want to save you"? That's the same as the abusive asshole that hits you and says, "I only get angry and hurt you because I love you so much."

It's bigger than SI and runs through society in general. I don't really understand why women always get the blame, but it's true. And I honestly wish some posters would look at their behavior a little more closely. The judgment and hostility is really unhealthy, and I think these members need to be doing some work on this deep seated anger. This is an area that concerns me.

Just as a by-the-by, my brother is a police Commander and recently told my sister how many different date rape drugs are now out there and how often they are getting calls. He said the most alarming change is how many sober women thought they were with friends or groups of safe people only to wake up unable to remember anything. These drugs are being given to them all the time, not even just in alcohol. This bothers me so much because it indicates that there are more and more men who feel entitled to get sex by any means necessary, and they know they have a ready-made villain. "Well, she shouldn't have..." and people will often buy into it.

Look, I am NOT trying to say WW were raped. Not at all. I am just feeling that the double standard is men are normal to pursue while women are to blame if anything happens. Period. And that's the way lots and lots of posts read. So I agree, ChamomileTea.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:36 PM, August 7th (Friday)]

I've been debating on whether to chime in on this one. I find myself both agreeing and also being really farking irritated at it.

A BH gets a shitty deal, to be sure. Our imperfect 'justice' system is absolutely NOT fair to men in divorces. Custody, spousal support, etc are heavily biased toward women. I don't agree with it in the slightest and have utmost sympathy for BH's dealing with that on top of having a cheating wife. It blows.

Also not arguing that there are indeed biological differences between men and women.

My issue with these sorts of threads is the vague vibe (imho anyways) that a BH is always hurt worse than a BW. Like somehow a BW's pain is less 'valid' because she doesn't have a penis. That underlying message really irritates me and isn't particularly helpful to anyone I don't think.

Being cheated on is AWFUL. I don't give a shit whether you're a husband or a wife, or a boyfriend or girlfriend, or whether you have kids or not. It is a humiliating, heart-breaking, painful as fuck situation no matter what. True, I'm not a guy so I can't 'get it' from a guy's pov, but I can still offer support and empathy based on my own unique perspective and experience. And whether a situation is 'better' than mine was doesn't make that person's pain any less real and profound than my own.

Without any empirical evidence, this is a ridiculous white knighting assertion.

If you have statistics, let's see them. If it's just your opinion, please state so.

I didn't ask for "empirical evidence" or "statistics", Thumos. I asked for opinions. And so far, there seems to be quite a lot of different takes on the question, which is good because it's all food for thought.

For men, since any cheating includes the possibility of being cuckolded (which causes a severe primal disgust), AND older men, even with children, have decent prospects.... men tend to tell other men "just walk away, bro, there's plenty of fish in the sea that won't cheat on you, and losing the money is worth it." Beating on the WW is just part of that communication.

I can't imagine that "severe primal disgust" is limited to men. I was so sick to my stomach for the first few months after DDay that I'd have divorced my WH on the spot if doing so could have provided any relief from the queasy pain in my stomach. So, no... I don't think you guys corner the market on that. And while some men are quite finicky about dating and mating, there are many others who, while in their "wild oats" years, aren't nearly as fastidious. So, I'm very hard-pressed to understand how "primal disgust" causes "beating on the WW is just part of that communication", particularly when it's done with great attention to crudity.

While I think most of us have probably said things in support of another poster that aren't kind. I've called more than one WH a "jackass" or some such, I think it's another thing to post in a way that's deliberately provocative in order to elicit a shame response. We might remind someone to take off their rose-colored glasses and really LOOK at the unenviable traits we see in their cheater, but why does that so often end up in statement's like "man up", or "get your balls out of her purse", or "stop being a cuck". These new BH's in JFO typically come in already suffering some weird sense of shame, like they could have stopped it if they'd just spent more time with their WW, or made better money, or had been better lovers. So, what purpose does that serve? (Not singling out this one poster... but it's a good point of discussion.)

Edit: dupe

[This message edited by GoldenR at 1:33 AM, August 8th (Saturday)]