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Burn the Witch!!!

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Thanksgiving2016 posted 8/10/2020 09:01 AM

Ironically men have made these societal rules about how male vs female cheaters are perceived. It’s the good ‘ol boy system that says awe he’s just sowing his oats he loves you honey it don’t mean anything. It’s the same thought process that says damn Billie Bob why ain’t you takin care of the wife in the bedroom. Then the wife either way has the nerve to take half of their “shit” doesn’t matter if you’ve been married 20 years. It’s their “ shit”

[This message edited by Thanksgiving2016 at 9:03 AM, August 10th (Monday)]

Tigersrule77 posted 8/10/2020 09:05 AM

I think one of the earlier posters noted that most people responding to BH's are other BH's. I fit into that most of the time. I comment on some BW's threads, but the majority are BH's.

I think the main difference is obviously due to gender. The BW's threads I read are more often written in a way that projects a need for support and leaning towards R. The BH's threads are more likely to start off considering D. I have no empirical evidence, this is just my take on things.

And for me, I find it easier to relate to the concerns of the BH (custody, alimony, etc.) than the BW (although they are sometimes the same, but BW are more likely to be the SAHS).

It is all perspective, and we all read things differently. What one person may write, intending to be supportive, another may read as an attack. We all have our filters and I'm willing to bet that we all have wildly different interpretations of scenarios.

I will say, one of the most intriguing threads I remember was a BW who changed her itinerary on a trip to Europe without telling her BH and revealed her knowledge of the A by doing so making it impossible for him to find her and beg for forgiveness and ruin her trip. The comments were all of praise for her genius, but didn't really "attack" the WH because OP didn't have anger in her post. She was sad for the end of her M, but was set on D and was only looking for support. She didn't need anyone to tell her that her WH wasn't a candidate for R. Thus, no flaming.

siracha posted 8/10/2020 09:07 AM

Rb
Thanks for the very engaging post , i suppose to a hammer everything is a nail because what i heard in your post was an both and external and internalized gender expectation and again how unfair that is to a person. I am truly sorry you had to put up with any of that .
In my experience i think the more manipulative / charming psychopath usually wins the battle of public opinion and the person with the better lawyer wins in court . I dont think these things typically fall along gender lines
I do take your point on child custody - that is a very good example of society unfairly punishing men as an entire group.

KingofNothing posted 8/10/2020 09:41 AM

I'm not going to put my oar in the water here-- except to say what I went through was unique to me alone. There may have been some "classic cheater" elements, and I certainly was hostile to my ex for a long long time, but that was unique to her. Over time, hostility, hate.. it all fades. I went through divorce without the benefit of an online support group. It's really too bad in many respects, as I made mistakes and did things I'm not proud of. I wish I had some notion of SI.com back then. I do think I treated her like a human being, though, and we ended up on reasonable terms after a while. I didn't pillory her to the community, I didn't attack her on social media, and I don't think all women are like her, even all women who cheat. I despise the actions, more than the person. I am probably overly critical of a mother who cheats and effectively destroys her family by doing so, but that's tied in to my perceptions and upbringing. I'll own that. I certainly don't paint the entire world with that brush, though.

That's as 'scientific' and 'data driven' as I can get on this topic, my own pathetic scientific sample of one.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 9:42 AM, August 10th (Monday)]

sisoon posted 8/10/2020 11:51 AM

RB,

Have you told your story to friends and family? My initial thought about As throughout adulthood was that the BS was to blame, but when a friend told me his W cheated, my immediate response was that she fucked up and hurt my friend. IOW, a moment before my friend told me of his W's A, I thought the BS was to blame for an A, and a moment later I blamed the WS.

I understand not sharing your story with friends and family - I haven't shared mine - but I think your friends and family would give you pleasant surprises. If you've already shared and not received the support you deserve, I'm very sorry - and I have to add: the problem lies with them, not with you.

I hope and doubt that you were ridiculed when you joined SI. I guess that's part of what this thread is about - not needing to say, 'I hope you aren't abused when you post.'

I joined SI because I wanted to ask some questions and to respond to some people. I was definitely afraid of telling my story. When I did, I expected I'd have to defend myself.

I don't know what readers thought of me when I posted about my W's A, but what actually got posted was very supportive.

But the above doesn't matter much. What BSes need to do to heal is to ignore the chatter and 'conventional wisdom' we have taken in from 'society' and listen to ourselves. There's support available for both D & R. The best way to heal is to choose what one wants - and tune out the crap that tells us we're losers for making that choice.

Stinger posted 8/10/2020 12:00 PM

I do not believe I have ever used vulgar language or imagery to motivate a guy tomdivorce. I do point out the cruelty and personality disordered behavior.

One thing I fairly consistently try to do is discourage BHs from what I see is a relatively common phenomenon of taking any responsibility for the cheating when they start pointing to their perceived deficiencies. This is so incredibly common with the men. They seem to forget that their wives were imperfect and, often abusive and neglectful.

The1stWife posted 8/10/2020 12:04 PM

CTea. I agree that some of the cruder posts have been insulting and lead to some very nasty names for the cheater. I don’t know it seems worse for the cheating women but at times it does.

I believe the double standard still occurs. The cheating wife is viewed much more negatively by society (as a whole) than a cheating Husband.

There are many who do not resort to name calling. I try to be one of them. I will admit I tell one person here on SI recently that I believed her “artist husband” was a sexual predator. I stopped there because I don’t have all the facts. Others agreed this guy was up to no good.

As for the cheaters who continue to cheat and continue to drag their spouse through false reconciliation- I really think there is not much worse you can do to further traumatize your spouse. I just wish that did not continue because it just adds more pain to the betrayed. And we sure do have enough pain already.

Thumos posted 8/10/2020 12:18 PM

they cheat when their needs are not being met...when they've been horribly neglected...and only out of desperation

This sounds like blameshifting. BW’s cheat for the same reason as BH’s - because of lust, kibbles, feels, cake and selfishness. They cheat because they want to, they see an opportunity, and they don’t think they will be caught.

“Unmet needs” and “desperation” are among the most nauseating and false cliches cheaters use to rationalize and justify selfish and lazy choices.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:18 PM, August 10th (Monday)]

Tanner posted 8/10/2020 12:32 PM


they cheat when their needs are not being met...when they've been horribly neglected...and only out of desperation

My WW tried this on Dday. I had to remind her who pulled away, and who busted his ass to make her happy. Nothing I could have done differently would have prevented it other than trust and ignoring red flags.

JanaGreen posted 8/10/2020 12:38 PM

Ok, I've only read the first and last page and probably shouldn't open my big mouth, but over the years I've been reading here, I have noticed a bit of a tendency on the part of SOME of the BH who find their way here to sort of . . . infantalize their WW and absolve them of responsibility due to some perceived fragility of the WW. They are so delicate, so lovely, so weak, they can't be held accountable.

Now these BH need to be shaken awake. Some women are VERY good at manipulating men through "weakness" and tears.

The one that I'll never forget is the BH (and I'm so sorry if it was any of you current readers) who tried to excuse his wife's infidelity because she had had a first trimester miscarriage and thus couldn't be held accountable for her actions - I've had four and I think I actually levitated and my head spun around replying to that one.

I think harsh words and awakenings are sometimes warranted. And I do think that men, bless you guys, sometimes do tend to see their wives and girlfriends through rose-colored lenses more often than we ladies do when looking at our men.

I know I've stereotyped all over the place here and of course exceptions abound. It's just a thing ive noticed. ALL waywards should be held accountable.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 12:41 PM, August 10th (Monday)]

EllieKMAS posted 8/10/2020 12:44 PM

There's support available for both D & R. The best way to heal is to choose what one wants - and tune out the crap that tells us we're losers for making that choice.
Agreeee... ish. IME on SI, the vast majority of BS's 'want' R, especially when they are new and still reeling from a dday.

But how often do we see BS's so hell-bent on R that they stay through ddays 2-infinity? How often do we see BS's that want R that allow their WS to blame-shift and rugsweep? How often do we see BS's continue to deal with a WS 'in the fog' (aka being a cake-eating jackass)? In these cases, I can say I certainly understand wanting R, but as the philosopher Jagger once said "You can't always get what you want."

In my situation, I "wanted" R. But I can say now with the benefit of hindsight R wasn't reconciliation. It was reality - I wanted my known reality back. And about the hardest thing for me to do was to really LOOK at the reality that was. I didn't have a loving husband. I didn't have a good marriage. I didn't have the reality I thought. Once I started really processing the infidelity and he kept acting like a douche deluxe, I realized that Reconciliation vs Reality thought.

DevastatedDee posted 8/10/2020 13:41 PM

Agreeee... ish. IME on SI, the vast majority of BS's 'want' R, especially when they are new and still reeling from a dday.
But how often do we see BS's so hell-bent on R that they stay through ddays 2-infinity? How often do we see BS's that want R that allow their WS to blame-shift and rugsweep? How often do we see BS's continue to deal with a WS 'in the fog' (aka being a cake-eating jackass)? In these cases, I can say I certainly understand wanting R, but as the philosopher Jagger once said "You can't always get what you want."
In my situation, I "wanted" R. But I can say now with the benefit of hindsight R wasn't reconciliation. It was reality - I wanted my known reality back. And about the hardest thing for me to do was to really LOOK at the reality that was. I didn't have a loving husband. I didn't have a good marriage. I didn't have the reality I thought. Once I started really processing the infidelity and he kept acting like a douche deluxe, I realized that Reconciliation vs Reality thought.

Yeah, that's true. I have to stop myself from being more blunt than I already am sometimes because I have to remember that immediately post-DDay, no one is thinking straight. We have no clarity at that point. We thought that we had a certain life and then are suddenly shown that we didn't in fact have that life and it is an incredible mindfuck. It takes time to really see what reality even is and untrain our brains from seeing what we used to see. Most of the suffering I went through was trying to make sense of this madness and re-conceptualize my own history with reality mixed into it. I personally benefit from "harsh" feedback, but not everyone does. I had to keep drilling it into my own head, "yes, he actually did lie about working to go fuck prostitutes and come home and kiss you on the mouth. Yes, he actually did turn you down for sex because he'd already orgasmed with at least one other woman that day. No, you weren't imagining it that he didn't find you so attractive anymore because he was sleeping with younger women. No, he did not respect you at all and was making a complete fool out of you and probably got off on that." I needed to really see what he did, because he had lots of words that made it all sound less horrible. I needed to face what really was because dear god you may make a fool of me once, but I don't want it twice.

So when I read a BS believing in excuses or wanting to stay because of love and it is so obvious that the WS isn't R material and doesn't respect him or her, it pains me. I guess sometimes I'm like that pain in the ass ex-smoker that just says "I know it's hard, but you have to quit now! It will be so much better without that drug and you'll be healthier!" Not everyone is ready to hear that or wants to hear that. And sometimes I probably get all "omg save yourself" when someone is walking a path that isn't ultimately going to lead to divorce. I don't have it in me to hang out waiting for someone to learn empathy and all that because I personally am not R material as a BS, but I have to be careful projecting that onto other people. Some people can stay and work with the WS through the R process and make it happen. It's just really really hard to not want a BS to run away and save their mental health when you are further along and see so many red flags and know that there are so many paths that one can take in life to be happy.

But that's not specific to BWs or BHs. That's across the board.

EllieKMAS posted 8/10/2020 13:49 PM

Dee you do you girl. You helped me SO many times early on with your you-ness

That's the beauty part of a forum like SI though, is all the different viewpoints that are offered. Some posters (like me) will appreciate bluntness, others might not. I think the trick is meeting a BS where they are at. Sometimes that's hard for me to do too.

Thumos posted 8/10/2020 13:50 PM

I have noticed a bit of a tendency on the part of SOME of the BH who find their way here to sort of . . . infantalize their WW and absolve them of responsibility due to some perceived fragility of the WW. They are so delicate, so lovely, so weak, they can't be held accountable.

Jana, I almost did this myself after DDAY (before I began posting on SI) bc my WW pushed a strong narrative about how persuasive and persistent and what a player her AP was. I put a stop to it by saying “so you were that easily misled and pressured?”

I too am disappointed in the what I would call the “fainting couch” phenomenon for WW’s.

And I do think that men, bless you guys, sometimes do tend to see their wives and girlfriends through rose-colored lenses more often than we ladies do when looking at our men.

The phenomenon here is typically known as pedestalizing and yes generalizing but it does seem to happen more with BH’s.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:52 PM, August 10th (Monday)]

Slowlygoingcrazy posted 8/10/2020 14:23 PM

Yes 100% there are different attitudes towards BHs and BWs.

I stopped reading here months ago because of the toxic attitude towards women by the red pill crowd. I decided to check back today and see this thread so I’m guessing nothing has changed.

Some of the more appalling things I’ve read here: a poster telling a BH that he needs to make abortion a condition for R; a BH describing how he enjoys making his WW feel pain during intercourse. Neither were met with “Holy shit dude that’s messed up”

JanaGreen posted 8/10/2020 14:33 PM

Slowly, that's awful.

I mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago that I've noticed red pill speak on SI lately. Maybe I just didn't know what it was and thus didn't recognize it before. But yeah.

OwningItNow posted 8/10/2020 14:34 PM

a poster telling a BH that he needs to make abortion a condition for R; a BH describing how he enjoys making his WW feel pain during intercourse.

I remember these. I also was horrified. And then this crowd goes on to say something akin to "Well, I can demand she eat glass and walk on hot coals while smashing her fist into her face because I didn't cheat! She can say No if she doesn't like it, and then she can GTFO!!!!"

Completely sadistic bullshit.
Scares me actually.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 2:41 PM, August 10th (Monday)]

ChamomileTea posted 8/10/2020 14:34 PM

I'm personally grateful for the vitriolic responses that I received as well as all of the encouragement and advice I was provided with. Thanks to both, I was able to clearly see where my lines were drawn - especially based upon my reaction to those specific hostilities or suggestions.

I think maybe it's possible for you to be "grateful" at this point because you defended yourself from the pile-on rather than just running away. I remember quite a number of times when you'd get fed up and tell people to knock it off. There are lots of BH's in JFO who just disappear.

hikingout posted 8/10/2020 14:48 PM

Jana, I almost did this myself after DDAY (before I began posting on SI) bc my WW pushed a strong narrative about how persuasive and persistent and what a player her AP was. I put a stop to it by saying “so you were that easily misled and pressured?”

I too am disappointed in the what I would call the “fainting couch” phenomenon for WW’s.

Again, as a female WS here, I don't notice a lot worse treatment between genders. Some of the males get plenty of 2 by 4's. It really depends on how much accountability the WS is taken to what feedback they receive rather than it seeming gender specific.

I also do not subscribe to the idea that WW's should have a "fainting couch" phenomenon or that the BH should be blamed.I have spent a lot of time posting to some of the BH's here that they need to stop taking responsibility for their WW's bad decisions.

At the same time, I have publicly said that my affair would not have happened without the grooming and pursuit of the AP. This does not take away the decisions I made. It can be both things are true. They do not have to exist mutually exclusively. It just means that I would't be in the category that was creating profiles online or chatting up men on facebook. It doesn't take my responsibility for engaging, continuing, lying, etc.

But BH's saying stuff to newbies like "He made her wetter than you do", or "he had bigger junk than you" or "she was never attracted to you". And basically using "don't be such a pussy" type of language.

The truth is I think you would find that while the decision to D is supported whether you are a BH or a BW, you will find the BH's are egged on differently towards it. And, rewarded more if that's their decision. I don't know why it seems like it's that way, but I feel like I read a fair amount of both BW and BH threads and that is my perception...without empirical evidence of course ;-)

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:50 PM, August 10th (Monday)]

ChamomileTea posted 8/10/2020 14:59 PM

But how often do we see BS's so hell-bent on R that they stay through ddays 2-infinity? How often do we see BS's that want R that allow their WS to blame-shift and rugsweep? How often do we see BS's continue to deal with a WS 'in the fog' (aka being a cake-eating jackass)? In these cases, I can say I certainly understand wanting R, but as the philosopher Jagger once said "You can't always get what you want."

For me, these kind of threads are particularly difficult when it's a BW. Oftentimes, they just want to talk about the emotional aspects of being in that kind of limbo and have ZERO interest in getting out of that limbo. And from behind the keyboard, you KNOW they're spinning their wheels and that the answer HAS TO BE getting out of limbo. But they're just not ready yet. They have to see it for themselves. So, this is where I've had a hard time learning how to just walk away, and I have offended a few learning that lesson. It's easy to get overly invested when you're empathizing with someone, but hard to recognize when your empathy has turned into advocacy for your point.

I do think that BH's are sometimes in that same kind of limbo, just wanting to deal with the emotional aspects, but they aren't quite as overt about it.

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