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Burn the Witch!!!

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ChamomileTea posted 8/11/2020 18:48 PM

I'm not interested in yet another overly generalized male vs female debate. What I'm interested in is opinions on whether or not wayward wives are singled out for harsher treatment and why that might be. On the whole, I found Onebiglie's posts rebutting the idea that a male's pain is somehow more anguishing to be valid. As an excuse for vile crassness and shaming of other BH's, the "my pain is worse than yours" argument doesn't wash. To speak to the one point some of you seem to want to nitpick, she did utilize the word "often" and her follow-on sentence would seem to be in the same spirit as that softening of the generalization, so I don't think it merits a threadjack.

thatbpguy posted 8/11/2020 18:51 PM

[post deleted for excessive common sense and picking apart new posters]

[And, OH OH OH, ChamomileTea, did you start a doozey! ]

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 6:53 PM, August 11th (Tuesday)]

fareast posted 8/11/2020 18:54 PM

Here's what I was hoping some of you guys would notice if you hashed through a bit of "Burn the Witch"... it's that you're inadvertently hurting each other. I was PROUD of my husband until he cheated on me. It wasn't until a year or so after DDay that I noticed how big the difference was. I started noticing "my husband said this" and "my husband did that" creep back into my conversation. But when it would, I stopped myself cold. I hadn't realized how often I talked about him before that. But after DDay, the words just dried up in my mouth.

I don't have to tell any of you how these guys FEEL when they get here. You already know. But I do think that years out from the raw, we forget how fresh the wound is, and that they MEAN IT when they say "I still love my wife". Most of them were PROUD of that wife before DDay. And I think that most are shamed when met with such assertions as "she couldn't wait to spread her legs for the OM". God forbid that they do decide they want to try R despite all the advice to the contrary they've had. I think most of those ones just disappear, too afraid to tell us that they want to try and therefore unsupported. And don't get me wrong. I'm in R, but I'm not about R. If I could only give one bit of advice to the newly betrayed, it would be: "File for divorce. Mean it. And if the WS can catch up and effectively convince you otherwise, then consider R."

I was hoping that in contemplation of "Burn the Witch", maybe some folks would work out that it's not just about gender bias (although I think there is some), it's about the BH who's still ATTACHED to that witch and how he gets scorched at the burning. I see wonderful commentary by people like Okokok and Sissoon who don't have to use crudity and shaming to make their points.

CT here is my take on your question that kind of has gotten lost in digression after digression about extraneous issues after reading through fourteen pages of this thread and many more over the years. Its not about gender differences or gender bias. It has nothing to do with biology or gender roles. When it comes to why it seems that WWs of newly arrived BHs are treated more harshly, it seems pretty straightforward. Some people act at times like obnoxious jerks. And when a newly betrayed BH shows up with his life in shambles they take the opportunity to post the most hurtful, vile things about his WW, and they could care less if it hurts the new BH and causes him more pain or drives him away. They do it because they can. Period. It is what it is. I dont believe it will change.

Rideitout posted 8/11/2020 19:14 PM

That's probably some of it Fareast, but I don't think that's all of it. I think that men get a VERY conflicted message (general society) about female affairs; I know I did, and when I first reached out for help after my W's A, I got a TON of "You must not have paid enough attention to her" as my response. I think part of the "burn the witch" is a reaction to "He cheats, his fault, she cheats, his fault" which is certainly ingrained in a lot of people's heads.

And I think that most are shamed when met with such assertions as "she couldn't wait to spread her legs for the OM".

Look, I'm in the group we're talking about here, a BH. And I heard EXACTLY that kind of comment. You know what? Hurtful or not, it was TRUE. And for me at least, hearing the TRUTH, no matter how painful, was like a cool breeze blowing through my life that had just been revealed to be a nest of lies and deceit. Did I want to think about it that way? No, of course not. Was it, however, a HELL of a lot more accurate than "Well, RIO, you must have taken her for granted"? I'd like to think so. And, frankly, I still think, even through 1000's of posts telling me otherwise that "She couldn't wait to spread her legs for the OM" is more true than "She just did it for the kibbles". Frankly, there's a large part of me that actually HOPES it is, because that indicates that my wife actually has a sex drive and doesn't just have sex with people for kibbles, which, for me, may as well just read "has sex for money". That thought disgusts me far more than her eagerly wanting the OM; I know I may be alone in this, but I'd much rather my wife be a nympho than a poorly paid prostitute. Nympho I can (happily) deal with, prostitute who will have sex with me to hear "I love you sweety pie", I cannot square in my mind; if she's having sex for reasons other than wanting sex, it's just like a circuit breaker in my mind trips and it might as well be for money at that point, there's no functional difference in my mind.

When it comes to why it seems that WWs of newly arrived BHs are treated more harshly

Part of it is just "men talking to men" that you're seeing here. This is how, personally speaking, I talk to other men; no "sugar coat", no "politically correct" just "here is is man, do what you will with it". The other part, and this will likely inflame some, but a WW is statistically significantly more dangerous to the M. Men D cheating wives at a much higher rate than women D cheating men. Part of this is probably bias, part of it is probably gender differences, part of it is that women are much more likely to have "exit type" affairs, and part of is just plain bigotry, but the statistics here are clear, a cheating wife is much more likely to end a M than a cheating husband. So it's partially, IMHO, a "wake up call" to BH's as to how serious what happened is, it's like the somber conversation about cancer from a doctor, you're really not likely to survive this, and, if you want to, get ready for hell, because it's going to be a long, hard road. Now, I really think that most of this is because of the nature of the A rather than gender, a man having an exit affair, IMHO, has about the same chance of M survival as a female having one (IE, not good); but men are much more likely to have other types of affairs, cake eating being high on the list, and those pose significantly less direct threat to the marriage. Now, women have cake eating A's too, and men have exit A's, but I think it holds that it's pretty gender segregated for the A types. And this also informs and guides some of the suggestions; a random WW is likely thinking about "how to leave the marriage" where a WH is less likely to be thinking that, more "How much cake can I stuff in my fat face". Different problems, for sure, and honestly, I think the "cake eater" would in some ways be harder for me, but they are just different. You don't need to "snap a cake eater out of it" (usually), they're under no illusion they are in love or that you've got to go to make room for the AP, they are just stuffing their faces as fast as they can. When caught with the hand in the cookie jar, the question isn't "didn't you like my cooking" the question is more "why are you such a f**king glutton".

ChamomileTea posted 8/11/2020 19:19 PM

That makes me sad, Fareast. I do think that some of these new BH's when they stick around long enough and read more deeply into other threads, can still get good messaging, things which help them cope. When you look at these kind of threads as small example vignettes of a larger societal problem, it's easy to see how so many men are NOT prepared for the full emotional assault brought on by intimate betrayal. Just as in real life, they're chock full of "don't be a beta male" and "get your balls back". But the intense emotions of infidelity don't respond to being stuffed down like the scraped knees and bloody noses of boyhood are. They linger, for decades even, if they're not dealt with.

OwningItNow posted 8/11/2020 19:46 PM

When you look at these kind of threads as small example vignettes of a larger societal problem, it's easy to see how so many men are NOT prepared for the full emotional assault brought on by intimate betrayal. Just as in real life, they're chock full of "don't be a beta male" and "get your balls back". But the intense emotions of infidelity don't respond to being stuffed down like the scraped knees and bloody noses of boyhood are. They linger, for decades even, if they're not dealt with.

Yep, yep, yep.

This is why my H and I are raising fully aware and valued boys. There is no "stop crying and man up" here. I want them to be ready for anything and able to cope. I know they will be happy even though they will meet with disappointments. They'll have the skills to deal.

Onebiglie posted 8/11/2020 20:31 PM

I did not say that I represented ALL women

Because I was talking about the majority of BW. I was certainly NOT speaking for WW who deliberately put their children in the position of potentially being broken.

Unlike almost ALL BHs I didn't make a judgement on BH (being somehow less committed to their children) because I'm a woman, the way that most BH made a judgement about BW as WOMEN somehow not being able to appreciate the pain of BH. I'm NOT the 1 who projected my contempt for WH onto BH. It's BH who are doing that to BW because of their WW.

HOWEVER I AM willing to say IN MY OPINION with clearly good reasoning that ALMOST ALL WH are less committed to their children than their BW. Because duh.

Shouldn't have to explain that to anyone here. I can find a study just like BH here quoted studies which may or may not even be credible suggesting 'WH are happy with their wives therefore betrayed WOMEN have it easier'. Just because the 'easier' was not used doesn't mean that's not what was meant so DON'T patronise me.

I will not be 'mollified' by your sugarcoated euphemisms for the word 'easier' the way you think BW are 'mollified' with money or WH's empty promises of not abandoning their BWs (even though they already did by cheating but thanks BH for suggesting it's all better because they didn't physically leave), or because he's 'happy'.

Because BW are so desperate with such low standards that all we care about is money, not being left nevermind if he actually doesn't actually want to be there. It is possible for a WH to lie about being happy with his BW & still cheat in secret or be unhappy & it shows he doesn't really love her or want to be there. But all BW care about is that he stayed with me right?! He wants her, thinks she's more beautiful and fun and a better person but he's here so I 'won'. All better.

I get to clean and cook and take of his children and he SAYS he loves me so I should feel all better. It's somehow easier for me than a BH.

And I'm also not 'mollified' by any BH who thinks they have it worse's 'all cheaters are bad', you missed the point.

You should have affirmed and not minimised BW's pain. You don't get credit for saying the WH is wrong. It's obvious. You do however deserve my disappointment for suggesting it's more painful for BH therefore by default you think it's worse for WW and 'not as bad for WH to cheat' because you think BW can bounce back. You've convinced yourself it's easier for us.

I did NOT say BH are less committed to their children. If I wanted to, I would have. Not like BH have been any less blunt than that. What?! The worst you can think of that a WH does is make his wife cook dinner for AP. Pathetic-you clearly aren't taking us seriously.

Do not misrepresent me. I said I admire BH & they like BW, care for their children. But if you think it's untrue that the majority of WH are equally or more committed to their kids than their BW I call BS. And you don't need a study for that.

You wanna tell me men have a harder time with the sexual side of the A because of emasculation like it's common sense. Sure, I'll tell you women are generally mpre committed to their children becausw common sense. Your WW no, but other women, yes. That's biology right? Women and children. The bond is obvious. Hello, of course. That's why BW get blamed for As cause they 'care more about the chidren than their husband. Poor neglected WH'. Betrayed WOMEN get that bullshit.

BH are obviously more committed to their kids than WW and WH. But it's probs easier for you to find another wife than a BW. Yoy want a 20 year old. Sure! Society says yes. BW however can't even get a guy her own age or older. She's damaged and a mom.

You can't say a BH can't get over the affair so he HAS to leave but a BW who can't get over it and stays for her kids is somehow less in pain. She can't stand to see her kids 50% of the time. She will not have the confidence of a second start romantically like a BH does.

But if you want studies to show women in general are more committed to their kids, go ahead and google it. It's clear. (Clearly WW aren't included in that) and You don't get to include your BH supporting statistics then say mine is anti-men. You can't have it both ways. I can easily say your studies about men being happier when they cheat having a correlation to successful R is complete bullshit. Because it is. You can't tell me those BW are happy or truly have successful marriages. So don't give me stats expecting me to take it seriously but say mine are indicative of a society against men. Remember men are still a large part of that society so don't you dare blame women. As if women don't have their own problems STILL.

Especially BWs. Don't mispresent me. I'm a good woman. I didn't have the luxury of a forgiving husband like your WWs so don't punish me further by acting like I have it easier than you.

And bpguy i know your wws A deeply affected your life but in general men have it easier finding love later in life. Women are looked at as damaged. Even red pill agrees. And you may be the exception-that's fine, i wouldn't want to generalise hurtfully like BH have done. That's not my intention.

Stinger posted 8/11/2020 20:45 PM

I don't think it is anymore painful for a BH. But, you did say that women are more devoted to their kids and family.You did not limit this to WHs, or, if you did, I missed it. I will re-read.

Stinger posted 8/11/2020 20:47 PM

No empirical data, but I never got the impression that WWs are treated more harshly. I see them no differently than cheating men.

Onebiglie posted 8/11/2020 20:48 PM

Stinger, Booyah and Siracha I did not say that BH were less committed, but WSs generally are less committed their children. Don't misrepresent me and ignore the rest of what I said if that's ehat you've done. If you have that only further proves that you aren't taking BWs seriously.

However the offense you've taken is the same as I felt seeing BH think it's doable for a woman to think she won in the affair. We lost. If BWs disgaree go ahead but this is my opinion. I lost. I didn't win just like BHs didn't win.

Or to get over it any easier than a BH. It's not a fraction of 1% easier and I will not be told otherwise just because you questioned if your children were your and I can't relate to that. Because you didn't question things I had to question and that doesn't mean it was harder for me.
In my opinion it's I'm equally as offended by that as you are at the idea that you're less committed to your kids. Those are MY feelings. They're not far fetched since all of us have heard and most will agree infifelity is so painful some have said it's as or more painful than a child's death so yes i am as offended by the idea i have it easier as you are at the idea that you are less committed to your beloved kids.

Stinger posted 8/11/2020 20:53 PM

I have no idea what you are talking about, Siracha. Rating people? Slut shaming?I cannot recall ever doing that. How does one rate people?

JanaGreen posted 8/11/2020 20:53 PM

I'm with you on a lot of what you said OBL, but as a divorced mom I can tell you that there are plenty of men out there who don't see a divorced BW mom as damaged goods and you wouldn't want the guys with that mindset anyway. And being single and happy is better than married and miserable any day, even if you never meet someone.

Just sayin. There's life out there, it's isn't doom and gloom if you D. Quite the opposite in many, many ways.

Onebiglie posted 8/11/2020 20:55 PM

The only thing that stops me wishing I could trade places with a WW is that I could

Never ever

Give this pain to a faithful man.

That's the only thing. Other than that I would die for a faithful forgiving BH. Must be nice. No offense remorseful WWs but I wonder what it's like to be loved that much.

BH maybe you could regard BWs as highly in the loyalty they show. BH R cause they love in spite of the pain.

On the flip side this thread suggests BWs R cause the pain is less and the money 'security' helps. My WH stayed whoop di do. Doesn't love me like a faithful man though. Wouldn't forgive me for cheating like a BH, even as a madhatter he would never give me a 2nd chance like he requests of me. I'm trying to forgive and he still doesn't love me as much as a BH loves his WW. What do I have to do to be loved so unconditionally. I don't have anything left to give. Chose a ow over me 100 times, im just the safer option for the 'permanent' choice but not the better choice cause he still risked losing me.

Stinger posted 8/11/2020 21:01 PM

Yeah, I re-read. I can see you were not saying women were more devoted than men, just more than cheahusbands are, I agree. Any cheater has shown less devotion to kids and family, regardless of gender.

And, I have no argument that it is every bit as traumatic for women. I think it is crazy to get in th oma debate about whose pain is great ed r.

Stinger posted 8/11/2020 21:21 PM

Honestly, in all my years attending and coaching my kids in sports, I never saw one father act like a dick to his kid, like the father in the Great Santini or Vic Morrow in Bad News Bears. Never saw a guy or any of my friends fail to comfort a crying son.

I guess that happens but I think it very rare. FWIW, I did see the lack of empathy toward our kids in my cheating XW. SHE was one cold blooded person.

I just think both genders have a certain % of aholes th hat are hard hearted. I think they get it from having a parent that is the as me way. NPD begEts NPD.

Stinger posted 8/11/2020 21:22 PM

I have no idea how my keyboard makes all these weird typos.

thatbpguy posted 8/11/2020 21:35 PM

And bpguy i know your wws A deeply affected your life but in general men have it easier finding love later in life. Women are looked at as damaged. Even red pill agrees. And you may be the exception-that's fine, i wouldn't want to generalise hurtfully like BH have done. That's not my intention.

I know. I like your posts and agree 90%. Keep it up.

Stinger posted 8/11/2020 21:45 PM

Difficulty finding love late in life? Isn't that what cats are for?

DoinBettr posted 8/12/2020 00:20 AM

Wow! Just wow. I mention I don't like my masculinity to be called toxic but because I can physically hurt a woman more I have to accept it.
See the messages you ladies give boys? Being in shape is bad and so does anything doing with being strong emotionally.
I haven't attacked women once, just said I didn't like that phrase, so please see, You ladies are hurting your own cause.
No wonder I can't imagine how any guy (I have a son and daughters) would see being a nice guy has value in this era.
Even chivalry is seen as devaluing women in this decade.
Mic drop.

Limboaz posted 8/12/2020 01:24 AM

I wonder how many men have to say they are offended by the term "toxic masculinity" before people stop using it on this forum?

It's one of those lazy words in the English language that drives me nuts. If there is a situation where a sensitive boy or man has unreasonable expectations put on them to be more manly, then call it out in a specific way rather than using a lazy term like toxic masculinity, which links the words toxic and masculine (apparently on purpose).

The other thing is I don't think it is reasonable to expect a bunch of angry betrayed men to be excessively polite, and to use sugar coated words. It will never happen.

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