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Burn the Witch!!!

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Okokok posted 8/8/2020 09:31 AM

why does that so often end up in statement's like "man up", or "get your balls out of her purse", or "stop being a cuck".

I'll add "white knight" to the list of insults hurled at men on here who contribute something deemed too unmasculine or, god forbid, supportive of something a woman said, to the discourse.

A while back, I was called out on my use of the term 'cuckold' when commenting on a new BH's thread. I can remember being surprised at the time because not only was I using the term in its strict dictionary-definition sense, but I could remember when somebody said it to me in my very first thread and how it sort of woke me up to the reality of my situation. I thought it was a *good* thing for this guy to be on the receiving end of such a jarring, degrading term.

The guy himself (who hoped to reconcile with his wife) let me know that yeah, in fact he did not appreciate it at all. Fair enough. I checked my premises, rethought my thoughts, and I don't say it anymore; it's just not helpful and is much more likely to be hurtful and insulting.

I've come to see that these sorts of ad hominem attacks can not only be very hurtful to the guy on the receiving end, but they are also *very* lazy ways to get one's point across and often serve to simply ruin what could otherwise be a productive discussion. AKA just bad thinking and bad arguing.

Valid arguments should be able to stand on their own. If it's clear a dude needs to have an awakening of sorts, I don't think he needs to be called a cuckold to achieve that. We can do better than that, and we should.

~

I care very much about BH healing (and infidelity-escaping) here on SI; probably more than anything else since it's what I know the most about. With that in mind, I think it's important for all of us dudes to remember that there is a very wide spectrum of what it means to be a man and how men can exist in the world. All are valid if they don't hurt anyone, and all should be respected here.

EDIT: changed some language in first sentence.

[This message edited by Okokok at 9:42 AM, August 9th (Sunday)]

thatbpguy posted 8/8/2020 09:46 AM

When women in this site say that you have to be a woman to understand the deep and complicated societal history we have with men feeling entitled to our bodies, we get dismissed. We're told that we're misandrist, we're imagining it, and that expecting a wife to do certain things in the bedroom has nothing to do with ownership or control.

Move along to another thread, and we are told that you have to be a man to understand the deep emasculation that a man feels when the woman he owns is "invaded" by another man. He's wired to see her as his property, and we just need to understand and accept that. Apparently no woman can comprehend the depth of male revulsion at the idea that his property was breached and seeded by another man's DNA.

I'm so tired of hearing men tell me that men know men's minds and experience better than women do, that men also know women's minds and experience better than women do, and that men comprehend the implications of what both genders decide to do with their bodies better than women do. I'd be interested to see if any of the men promulgating these theories will acknowledge any case or circumstance where a woman might have a superior understanding of human psychology or greater depth of personal pain than a man.

Excellent post.

Notmine posted 8/8/2020 09:47 AM


Although I did not complete a study on the postings on this site, and subsequently do not have the “numbers”, I agree that it seems that there is an imbalance. I have posted about this several times and have been the recipient of some rather interesting responses . I would implore SI members to pay particular attention to the the disclaimer I make about my lack of data and the word “seems” before going on the attack in this instance - this is a statement of OPINION.

I think it can be very difficult to come here for advice and to share, knowing that your thread will be overrun with BH posting graphic descriptions of what they "know" your WW enjoyed and how she's not the least bit remorseful.

I have posted more than once pleading the case of the suffering BH due to this issue. I feel great sympathy for a BH who comes here, looking for rational assistance, only to be inundated with posters who “know” what their wayward wife’s motivations are or what she was thinking or who she is or who she always has been or to cast aspersions on her character in terms of absolutes. These posts really do seem to be designed to inflame injury to the BH. They are not helpful or compassionate or fair for these people. God help the poor BH who try to defend their wives or want to reconcile. They are then routinely accused of being non-masculine and weak. IMO it takes great strength to reconcile, although it is not always an option or a good idea. That is for individual BS to decide, NOT the rest of us. We often tell a BS to “take what you need and leave the rest”, but to engage in character assassination of the BS or to make pronouncements about another person without evidence to support our thinking is the last thing we should be doing. I think we all come here for help and to help others, but we need to be cognizant of what we are saying. It is unconscionable to put a BS through any more pain. Although I understand that some posters are triggered by events described in posts, especially in the JFO forum, it is blatantly unfair and unhelpful to make statements of opinion masked in absolutes.

Please note that I am aware that this occurs to BW as well, but there does seem to be a disparity. I am also aware that I have previously engaged in drawing similar conclusions about WH when triggered, and I have subsequently changed the way I write to a BW. When I was new, I remember receiving a post from someone with great intentions, who made assumptions, masked as truisms, based on a total lack of evidence. It was painful and overwhelming. I did not post for a long time as a result. This is not what we should want for the newly betrayed.

I see little empirical data that supports much of the commentary about "biological predisposition” and its effects on the individual or society, despite the rather prolific demands and responses of some posters. There is biological evidence to support that the frontal lobe, responsible for problem-solving, is larger in a woman’s brain, and the male’s amygdala, which regulates the “fight or flight” reaction, is larger in a man, but this does not mean that all women are better problem solvers or that all men are more inclined to act out in anger. To make excuses for EITHER gender based on biological predisposition is pretentious and inaccurate. This does not allow for any sense of individual choice or responsibility, and it objectifies both men and women. Biological predisposition may explain some behaviors, but it does not EXCUSE THEM. Seriously, you can find a litany of textual and visual content to support any way of thinking. Misogyny rationalized on the basis of "biology" is bullshit. Misandry on the basis of “biology” is bullshit as well. BOTH men and women suffer under many societal expectations and norms. By taking the side of one gender, you are invalidating most of your points about equity.

I am sure that gender bias exists for BOTH men and women. It does not excuse the way that we treat BH on this site, which was specifically designed to be a “safe place to come and share your pain and feeling of isolation upon discovery of betrayal”. This is what we should be focused on, NOT the unfair practices of a society based on the discrimination and separation of people based on insignificant differences, such as race or gender. We need to strive to be objective, despite the triggers. We need to honor how a BS feels and do our best to share our experience strength and hope to help them through the worst time of their lives without furthering their pain. Just my OPINON.

landclark posted 8/8/2020 09:59 AM

BraveSirRobin for the win.....

DictumVeritas posted 8/8/2020 09:59 AM

BraveSirRobin,

When women in this site say that you have to be a woman to understand the deep and complicated societal history we have with men feeling entitled to our bodies, we get dismissed. We're told that we're misandrist, we're imagining it, and that wanting a wife to do certain things in the bedroom has nothing to do with ownership or control.

I have yet to meet the man who feels entitled to a woman's body. I have an idea of the context in which you made that statement, but that discussion is best left to that thread and has very little to do with entitlement and more to do with restitution of equity. I qualify my last statement if your context was as to sexual acts performed with AP, but denied a BH. If your statement was not made in that context, then I defer and state only the first sentence in this paragraph.

Move along to another thread, and we are told that you have to be a man to understand the deep emasculation that a man feels when the woman he owns is "invaded" by another man. He's wired to see her as his property, and we just need to understand and accept that. Apparently no woman can comprehend the depth of male revulsion at the idea that his property was breached and seeded by another man's DNA.

I do not see my SO as property, but if she breaches our agreement of fidelity physically, she is, and this is through my personal experience and in my mind, defiled by having contained or containing another man's DNA post-agreement and no longer worthy of my resources or protection. This is a fact with lasting mental implications to the extent of causing permanent alterations in the neural pathways of the male brain that might even be interpreted as brain damage. Love and the desire to protect does turn to revulsion.

I can never experience being cheated on from a woman's perspective and I am sure the pain is equal, I am simply stating what I know to be biological facts as well.

I'm so tired of hearing men tell me that men know men's minds and experience better than women do, that men also know women's minds and experience better than women do, and that men comprehend the implications of what both genders decide to do with their bodies better than women do.

Please see my previous comment in this thread.

I'd be interested to see if any of the men promulgating these theories will acknowledge any case or circumstance where a woman might have a superior understanding of human psychology or greater depth of personal pain.

The most functional family units contain both male and female energies, working in unison and complimenting one another. Children from such a union receives the superior emotional awareness from an healthy mother and the protection and guidance from a strong and logical father.

An emotionally developed and stable woman far exceeds a man in her capacity for empathy to the point that it is called a woman's intuition. This is something so profound that it actually evokes a sense of wonder in a man lacking the ability to such an extent.

Above is an ability attributed to a healthy woman which I have thus far found lacking in various degrees in WWs.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 10:20 AM, August 8th (Saturday)]

ramius posted 8/8/2020 10:14 AM

Men and women are different. And get treated different in different situations. People can say all day oh it shouldn’t be this way and everything should be equal and blah blah blah. But that’s not reality and that will never be reality.

And it goes both ways.

What I have noticed is many times, when the woman is the cheater, many people (mostly women and white-knight males) come up with many excuses/explanations as to why she did it. Family of origin issues, low self-esteem, he didn’t meet my needs, I lost my identity, etc. etc. etc. Lots of mental gymnastics and explanations.

On the other hand when the man cheats, he’s just a low life son-of-a-bitch. A dog who didn’t appreciate what he had.

GoldenR posted 8/8/2020 10:31 AM

I have much more sympathy for BWs than I do BHes. But I mostly stay out of those threads as I wind up saying things that I don't think through as I see things from a male standpoint only.

Example: my gut reaction is to tell her to leave the sack of shit. But I don't think about the fact that she has 3 kids under 10 and she hasn't worked in 11 years and she has no siblings and both parents have passed.

I also dont use proper language when referring to the WHes as I was warned a couple times in my early days here.

But for me...I'd much rather "Burn that bastard fuck!" over the witch.

Lostallalone posted 8/8/2020 10:35 AM

Why are men who works hard. Dedicated to provide a better life for his family. Always seen as the bad guy. Works long hours. Comes home (nice home family enjoys) dead tired. But he's a prick because he ignores his wife. I don't understand. Do woman's friend's always push to cheat? Do they always cover for each other. Sorry I know numerous marriages this happened. Maybe its just me but I don't know ANY guys who do that.
And btw the post thread in question I am beginning to think she is evil. I had my doubts before. But the latest thread she had to dig the knife in a little more. "Glad to see you're not prioritising work over family." I mean wtf. I know I'm a mad hatter. If you want to know more ask I will answer. Trying not to thread jack

Thumos posted 8/8/2020 10:38 AM

Again, I don't see how that's limited to male victims.

It isn’t and I didn’t say that. What I essentially said was that women’s genitalia can store the commingled microbiomes (Not just sperm) in a way men’s genitalia can’t. And that sleeping with multiple partners alters a woman’s microbiome. Yes it’s obviously true that a cheating man can come home and expose A wife to STD’s and the microbiome of another woman. But from what I’ve read about genital microbiomes it’s different.

Thumos posted 8/8/2020 10:54 AM

I assume this is what triggered this thread:

To suggest that you protecting yourself and proceeding with a divorce to heal yourself is the equivalent of burning a witch at the stake is frankly complete nonsense. And really offensive, considering the trauma you are enduring. But it's the kind of thing you will need to expect from some. If I were in your shoes I would ignore those voices trying to subtly (or not so subtly) guilt you or make you take on the mantle of scapegoat.

Move forward. Stay frosty. Keep your values intact, head held high. If you see a TRULY remorseful ex-wife who has taken on the real burden and responsibility of trying to get down to her issues, who has stopped talking and started doing, you can always take another look if you want.

But the priority now should be getting free and clear of a toxic situation. Now.

I’m hard pressed to find anywhere on that entire thread where I told AH to get his balls back from his WW’s purse — or the other statements on this thread people are wildly throwing around that seem transparently like straw men.

I told him to be kind, be a gentleman, hold his high but also protect himself from a vile person who had spent two years degrading herself and abusing him in one of the worst ways a fellow human being is capable of.

That’s not burning the witch. That’s common sense.

I also shared a number of times with AH a detailed analysis for how he could deflect misguided attempts by his church community or Pastor to proof text Scripture as a way of blameshifting and encouraging him to swallow his pain and rugsweep. The religion discussion was wholly relevant to his situation because it is right up in his face. It was not only relevant, there was a pressing need for it bc AH had church members up in his grill trying to pressure him this week.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:56 AM, August 8th (Saturday)]

hikingout posted 8/8/2020 10:58 AM

I didn’t read the comments closely so forgive me if this has been said.

I think in most ways this behavior hurts the bh’s the most. There is a toxic masculinity that often when I read it I think “dude this is still the guys wife we are talking about here and do you not have any patience for this guys confusion?”

They say amazingly gross and imagined scenarios to the man and really push them for divorce way more than I see the bw’s
here get pushed for it.

I have had so many bh’s message me (with my husband having full access if he wants it and full approval) to say they can’t say these things in the forum because of the toxic comments. They have asked me to help their wives and they have admitted they have no idea what they want but that they have learned they can’t say it publicly. The egging on gets to be too much. They retreat to discussions outside of the board. They say I have been talking to so and so, and it’s always one of the bh’s that aren’t in the burn the witch club.

I didn’t read all that thumos wrote past the first page - but it’s ironic because I have watched others treat him this way all along. I can’t believe he wouldn’t argue some of that just wasn’t helpful.

As far as being a ws on this site, I don’t feel like there is a disparity between the sexes. I think we are pretty equal opportunity on getting the two by fours when we need them. Sometimes I wish we would lay off newbies instead of chasing them off and that they should post behind a stop sign in early posts...but generally very little difference in terms of gender.

DictumVeritas posted 8/8/2020 11:01 AM

Thumos, I have personally not read anything offensive in any of your replies. I found them metered and insightful.

Just as an aside to your previous post in this thread. If you want to read a real biological horror story, research micro-chimerism.

SisterMilkshake posted 8/8/2020 11:02 AM

When women in this site say that you have to be a woman to understand the deep and complicated societal history we have with men feeling entitled to our bodies, we get dismissed. We're told that we're misandrist, we're imagining it, and that expecting a wife to do certain things in the bedroom has nothing to do with ownership or control.
Move along to another thread, and we are told that you have to be a man to understand the deep emasculation that a man feels when the woman he owns is "invaded" by another man. He's wired to see her as his property, and we just need to understand and accept that. Apparently no woman can comprehend the depth of male revulsion at the idea that his property was breached and seeded by another man's DNA.

I'm so tired of hearing men tell me that men know men's minds and experience better than women do, that men also know women's minds and experience better than women do, and that men comprehend the implications of what both genders decide to do with their bodies better than women do. I'd be interested to see if any of the men promulgating these theories will acknowledge any case or circumstance where a woman might have a superior understanding of human psychology or greater depth of personal pain than a man.

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

99problems posted 8/8/2020 11:07 AM

I'm surprised to see the posters in this thread arguing primarily about biological differences between men and women .
I do believe that there are.
But does nobody stop to think about societal differences?
Men are quick to resort to anger (myself included). We have been taught by movies, books, folk tales, songs, that a man commiting acts of violence, against those who have wronged him with "righteous" anger is a hero. Anger is an emotion that we have learned to shield ourselves with as small children, far before we experienced the pain of infidelity.
I will say, also, that BH, when bringing up the topic of their pain in a group of friends or a social group, are met with confusion, awkward pats on the shoulder, and overheard comments like "he's taking this really hard." BH's are supposed to just muscle through and emerge victorious with a beauty queen new girlfriend and a Colgate smile. If they don't there is a palpable sense of doubt and derision from friends and even sometimes family.
I'm not saying none of this happens to BW. I believe BW suffer in different ways which are just as damaging and unfair. Infidelity is unfair.
I'm not as familiar with what BW go through, as I have never experienced those things personally. I do read here to try and gain perspective.
But it does make sense that there would be different reactions on a forum to the different sexes' experiences, as the posters primarily come from a culture that treats the sexes differently. It would be strange if this was not the case.
In a similar forum in a very different culture I think the results would be very different. My 2¢

jb3199 posted 8/8/2020 11:08 AM

What say you SI? Are WW's treated with more contempt than WH's???

I think ramius states it simply: men and women are different....and that will never change.

Without data to back it up, I do believe that same genders tend to reply more to same gender threads....at least as it pertains to the betrayed. For whatever reason, in the Wayward forum, the replies seem to be less lopsided. And if men are a little more brusque, in general, then the threads tend to show this. I could argue that betrayed female threads tend to show more sympathy. Not saying that one is more correct; it's just my interpretation of how I see things.

But I would be surprised if any BH was asked his opinion about a WH, that he would be any less dismissive than his opinion of a WW. The boards here may not show 'equality'(that gender thing that ramius mentioned), but the disdain for the cheater would be as close to 'equal' as I could imagine.

It 'take him to the cleaners' much different a message than 'burn the witch'? Many betrayed want their pound of flesh. It often feels the closest that they can get to leveling the playing field....so to speak. I think most here want the wayward to feel harsh consequences....as their betrayal was one of the harshest things that they could ever do to us.

hikingout posted 8/8/2020 11:18 AM

Thumos - I don’t think thread is about you. This happens al over this site especially in the just found out forum. The responses some of the bh’s get in there are so harsh that I can’t read in there. Those men are suffering the biggest blow and I think Idiot mcstupod his the nail on the head that the other bh’s see it and get angry for him and they respond in that way. It’s a natural way I see me. Interact. To be men, be strong...and that means be angry. Angry is safe because it’s sadness’s body guard. But - this post isn’t directed at you this conversation has been a thing since I got here. In fact I think you have gotten a fair amount of these pushes yourself.

Thumos posted 8/8/2020 11:21 AM

didn’t read all that thumos wrote past the first page - but it’s ironic because I have watched others treat him this way all along. I can’t believe he wouldn’t argue some of that just wasn’t helpful.

Hikingout maybe I have selective memory but I can’t recall a majority of posters on my year-long reconciliation thread where people were ugly or unhelpful - certainly don’t recall instances of BH’s saying the types of caricatured things being floated here as straw men.

I do recall a handful of times when someone said something really divisive or hateful but they were in the distinct minority and we moved on.

Mostly I was getting a really balanced perspective from both men and women and both waywards amd betrayeds.

Wouldn’t you agree?

DevastatedDee posted 8/8/2020 11:23 AM

Thank you, BraveSirRobin. I do get tired of questioning my gender here. Our genitals do not make us who we are as individuals. There is nothing cute about a woman sitting around with another man's sperm inside her or a woman performing oral on a man hours after his parts were in some orifice of another. And count me in the HPV group, though it hasn't turned cancerous so far.

I do also see more explicit harshness directed at BHs here, and it's not okay. We all come in here wrecked and destroyed.
We all come here needing the same things. These supposedly vast gender differences aren't so apparent when we're all in pain together.

susielee posted 8/8/2020 11:25 AM

"Another mitigating factor is that I think (?) that females don't feel the emasculation aspect of being cheated on, which let me tell you ladies, is SEVERE.

"

I do agree to a point. I can say however, that many women do feel the female version of emasculation. Many of us are so hurt and embarrassed that our husbands basically said to us, you don't do it for me anymore.

I was only 40, and attractive; but it hit me like a ton of bricks. Oh God the pain of the sexual rejection. It didn't matter to me that other men showed interest in me. They didn't matter, because I had not given myself to them with my whole body and heart and then been discarded.

So, I do think some of us get it, maybe even most of us.

I am long past it and have had a wonderful loving man in my life now for years, but I do remember the pain of rejection. Both emotionally and physically.

hikingout posted 8/8/2020 11:27 AM

Thumos- I would say more now than earlier. After the guys felt you had gotten “stronger” You aren’t new anymore here. Most of what happens is when you are newer. I have seen people tell you to man up in various ways during times you were uncertain. And I have seen people be very hard on you. So yes I think if you want I know what we are talking about go back and read or go to just found out. You guys are very hard on each other and I think that was more the basis of CT’s post. She is not imagining this, but perhaps the true slowly boiling of men is that this is really that you guys don’t see it. I am floored that you think this post was specific towards your responses, because it’s so obvious to me this is all over, anywhere you look.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:28 AM, August 8th (Saturday)]

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