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On closure...

Adlham posted 9/12/2020 03:42 AM

Came across this and thought I would share.

There is NO need to have that “one last conversation” with a toxic individual in your life.” The closure will come when you look deeper inside yourself. It’s not your job to fix someone when they are unwilling to fix themselves. Starve them of your bright light with silence.✨✨
Jesse Lifson

And you know what? He is 100% right.

It just takes a little time for your heart to understand.

And you know what? That's ok, too.

Much love to you all.

OwningItNow posted 9/12/2020 09:03 AM

It’s not your job to fix someone when they are unwilling to fix themselves. Starve them of your bright light with silence.

I really like this, and I will keep this in mind. In the last few years I have fully lived this and walk away from toxic people, those making zero effort to become better people. I just stop interacting with them. But for many years, I felt compelled to continue to try with them.

What are we trying to accomplish? I think in love relationships we do not think we are trying to fix them. We believe we are trying to fix their faulty thinking. Often about us.

Whenever someone on SI is told, "You can't fix her," they follow with, "I know that. I'm not trying to fix her," no matter how obviously untrue that is. I think it's because in many SI cases at least, it's the WS's faulty thinking about them and the M that the BS cannot stop trying to correct or alter. The "one last conversation for closure" is almost always "one last attempt to fix my love's toxic thinking about me." It's so very sad. I've repeatedly been that sad person over the course of my life.

When someone is toxically rejecting of us--our value in their life, our worth as a person, our innate right to be respected--what drives us to want to change their mind rather than run far away? Whatever it is in us, these are not good instinctual qualities. Toxic beliefs about us should be offensive to us and cause us to revile the speaker. Too often our unhealthy instinct is to prove them wrong.

Why do we value what our partner says and thinks more than we value what we know to be true about ourselves? Why do we want their toxic love so badly?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:05 AM, September 12th (Saturday)]

Adlham posted 9/12/2020 17:07 PM

For me, I think it has a lot to do with having quite the unsuccessful childhood (aka, full of abuse).

I feel like I'm no one special but I have overcome a lot so I could improve my life. If I can do it, everyone should be able to!

Obviously, that's faulty thinking, too.

And letting go of the outcomes and the things we can't control is so hard.

Don't even get me started on how freaking long it takes for your heart to catch up with you brain!

You make so many good points, OwningItNow.

Thank you for those!

LadyG posted 9/12/2020 17:44 PM

Why do we want their toxic love so badly?

It took me a while to summon the courage to reject my WS and the Toxic Love that kept us together for far too long.

The ‘last conversation’ he said it all... all the love I was giving, couldn’t fix him.

The Silence is healing and liberating.

That’s a beautiful quote, Adlham 🙏🏼

TheLostOne2020 posted 9/12/2020 17:51 PM

I've never really thought about trying to get closure. Closure from a liar doesn't mean much. If I went to my ex and asked her about it she would just try to lie to make herself look better...So why bother?

Adlham posted 9/12/2020 23:47 PM

When I used to think of closure, it was more of wanting him to acknowledge that he was a pos and to just say he was sorry.

Yeah, right. But in my defense, I was only in my 20's.

Letting go of that need was really liberating.

Edited for typo.

[This message edited by Adlham at 11:48 PM, September 12th (Saturday)]

OwningItNow posted 9/13/2020 00:20 AM

Yes. Just wanting them to say sorry and admit they messed up! We want that type of closure so badly from them! And in some weird twist of nature, that's the thing they cannot say and mean. They just can't do it.

I get an image in my head of when I was little and playing around. Someone would have something of mine in their hand (usually my brother) and I'd try to pry his fingers loose to get it. He'd fight with all his might to hold onto it. That's the way I envision an apology, which is a type of admission of fault.

We want it so badly, need it so badly, and try to pry it out. "Please admit it was not us, that we are good!" And with every fiber of their being, every ounce of energy, they try to hang on to their idea of themselves. "I will never admit that I am this type of horrible person! No!!!"

We care too much for the opinion they hold, and they care too much about holding on to their narrative. Sigh.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:22 AM, September 13th (Sunday)]

Booyah posted 9/13/2020 06:36 AM

Thanks so much for sharing this insightful wisdom Adlham and OwningItNow!!!

For me it's very helpful with a few people in my life.

So true on the heart catching up....

99problems posted 9/14/2020 11:01 AM

Yes, I struggle with this still, but logically understand that it will never happen.
My emotional reason is also beginning to catch up with my logic, slowly, but surely.

And I also understand that if, for whatever reason my stbxww did give me this little speech, that it would be a lie just like every other thing she said and would be entirely worthless anyway.

So why sit around wishing for someone to give you something that has no value?

We make our own closure. We close that door ourselves. The door only exists within us and nobody else can even grasp the handle, much less close the door.
It is our door to close, open, or set on fire and destroy.

I am choosing to nail the door shut and push a heavy safe in front of it, then glue the safe to the floor and fill it with concrete. :)

KingRat posted 9/14/2020 14:43 PM

I agree with everything you say. Closure is something we ultimately arrive at ourselves. However, affairs are unique in that they result in an ambiguous loss. This is much different than a concrete loss, in that the grieving process is tolled until we can identify what the loss is and its significance.

For example, let's look at a concrete loss such as death. Every person understands this loss intuitively. As such, closure arrives quickly and we can almost immediately begin the grieving process. Nonetheless this is still very traumatic and takes time to process.

An example of an ambiguous loss is a severe brain injury. These often take 6 months (and even more) to even define the loss, or does the person make a full recovery and there isn't a loss at all? We can't arrive at closure because we don't know if the door is even closed. There many examples of successful Rs; at the seem time, there are many affairs that lead to divorce. So we can't grieve until we close the door, we cannot close the door until we determine the door if the door is open or already closed. This is mostly not dependent on the BS's actions, so the BS is in a reactive/discovery state.

Many times the end result is a physical presence but psychological absence, and the BS is responsible for "pulling the plug". Which is what I believe you were referring to in your OP.
The BS is, in effect, put in a Terri Schiavo situation and must weigh the reality that is dictated by facts and logic supported by with the emotional bias. But that decision can only be reached after a period of time in which we can support whether a loss has, in fact, occurred. In Terri's case, it unfortunately took 15 years. But it would be unconscionable if they were ready to pull the plug after one day.

[This message edited by KingRat at 2:53 PM, September 14th (Monday)]

Evertrying posted 9/14/2020 17:27 PM

About closure,,,,

What I never understood is when the wayward feels the need for closure with their AP. I have seen it here time and time again. I assume it mostly happens right after dday and for some idiotic reason they "owe" something to the AP to "close" the affair. What and why?

They are both shit bags at the time. Why the need for closure?

cancuncrushed posted 9/20/2020 23:19 PM

I agree. They are still attached or consumed with that relationship. It just shows me more that I was never a factor The relationship between us was over. He was trying to save something. But was detached.

That took the longest time to accept. He was far gone. I thought I could reach him. He would see and fix this.

He had already started a new life. New dreams. I was still trying to understand I didnt know he stopped loving me. I was trying to fix this.

It was a very long painful path of. Realization. I learned he was a serial cheater. He was an alcoholic. He was a narcissist. All combined. He never loved me. It was all about him getting away with something. That is my closure. I had to accept there was never a marriage. I was misinformed about all of it. There is no closure for that. Closure was realizing zero is zero
No conversation is necessary I no longer wait for a clear understanding or conversation /apology.

Adlham posted 9/21/2020 00:01 AM

I'll be honest. Some of it is ego.

I wanted him to acknowledge that I'm right and he sucks balls lol

It's been a process to let that all go. It comes up from time to time because of how much he hurt my daughter through the years.

If there were any sense of justice in the world, I would be allowed to break every bone in his body with a baseball bat and get a damn trophy when I was done.

But alas...

He still says really awful things about me. Dude! It's been 20 years. Get over yourself. You fucked up that relationship. Not me.

But it wouldn't do me any good to make a grocery list for a family a 5 listing all the ways he sucks because he's too fucking stupid to get it.

And then his dad attacked me, too. Couldn't help myself. I have wanted to tell him off for the last 20 years, as well. And he is not a dumb man.

I still feel good about that one!

Obviously, I'm feeling pissy tonight. Most of the time I just don't care.

But what he did (didn't do, actually, which was be a damn dad) is unforgivable by my definition.

And I'm ok with it. I hated not be able to protect her from that kind of hurt. So I nurtured that anger, you know? That's my kid!

I think this is the part where I'm supposed to remember that closure with a toxic person is just silly!

The1stWife posted 9/21/2020 08:01 AM

Why do we value what our partner says and thinks more than we value what we know to be true about ourselves?

Darn good question. Wish I knew the answer.

Chili posted 9/21/2020 10:46 AM

The other thing I used to confuse myself about "closure" was thinking I could make an attempt to part ways in an adult, logical or decent kind of way with some last conversation. To not just ghost out of the blue. But to try and explain. To leave things "clean." To have grace. And not really hoping to get that "I was an ass" admission (of course that would have been nice, but knew it was a lost cause).

That approach hasn't worked yet with anyone I've had to walk away from - romantic, platonic, whatever.

Suppose it falls into the "you can't talk to crazy" category.

I always seem to get victim or rage or one more interaction displaying the exact reasons I knew they could no longer be in my life. Sigh.

Just walking away with no explanation just feels so....passive aggressive which is my least favorite look.

99problems posted 9/21/2020 10:49 AM

I wanted him to acknowledge that I'm right and he sucks balls lol

This so much!!!!!
Not that it would help anything. I'd just like to get it in writing and make a cross stich of it and hang it in the living room.
Weird? Yes. I am.

Adlham posted 9/21/2020 22:02 PM

Oh, hell yes!

If I ever got it in writing, I would do the same damn thing!


maise posted 9/22/2020 04:01 AM

I had a conversation with a friend recently about a person in her life that lacks complete accountability for themselves. Something I notice in both she (and I previously) was our flawed thinking that if someone didn’t do something bad to us then we felt we had no good reason to cut them from our lives. The thing is though, if they’re toxic and emotionally incapable of being a positive in your life then letting that person go or creating the best boundaries of distance for yourself is not a bad thing for you to do. I told her this. This is a person that brings her so much stress and negative energy - she feels depleted and used. Not healthy. A question I asked her once was, “what do you get out of this?”

Anyway, something else I learned as I cut people from my life that brought negative energy was that having a conversation of “closure” or even explanation of why I was being distant was useless. This person is not capable of accountability for themselves (one of the main reasons the relationship is toxic to begin with) so if said conversation is attempted (and I’ve attempted it with plenty of these types of people in the past) the only responses I’ve received are denial, minimizing, justifying, victimizing, strong defensiveness, and not one ounce of accountability. Meh, no thanks. Best to spare my energy, and just distance without a word. They can think whatever. Only people that have accountability for themselves are worth the conversation, and even then it’s up to me on whether said person is someone I find the need to have that convo with, MO.

Bigger posted 9/22/2020 06:24 AM

For example, let's look at a concrete loss such as death. Every person understands this loss intuitively. As such, closure arrives quickly and we can almost immediately begin the grieving process. Nonetheless this is still very traumatic and takes time to process.

Not arguing about the above statement.

When my dad passed away my mom was told by several people – priests, her widowed friends, consultants – that the grief process would take about two years before she started feeling “normal” again. This despite my dad being old and battling cancer for some time, his passing was expected.

When my oldest brother passed away his wife was told the same. Despite his passing being rather quick from being diagnosed to death.

We tell people that it takes 2 years before you can evaluate if R is really working and worth it.

Research shows that when queried 12 months after divorce most regret divorcing and/or state they could have saved the marriage. Same group queried 18-24 months after the divorce will say the Big D was a great decision.

I think that we humans simply need an average of 24 months to recover from trauma.
With work you might get that down a bit, or you might get from stage A to B in 2 months instead of 3, and to C in 4 months instead of 6, but the complete journey is probably closer to the 24 month-mark.

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