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Some of you may have read my story in a previous thread... Things have not been going well for me. My WH has been undecided and feels like he is unsure he can give up the OW totally/easily. I can see it is painful for him, and I can see the idea of losing me is also causing him intense grief.

I have tried so many things, but have not been very good about the 180. I have been so hurt and sad. I didn't make the marriage a good place to be, not really. That shit is HARD.

We had a couple's session with a counsellor today and I am feeling so fed up and miserable, and saying well I guess I should just let her have you at this point since you won't decide. Our situation is: we live in Germany, are from Canada, and I need to get back to Canada for various reasons. He has been dragging his feet for ages and now OW is in the picture.

Should I expose the affair to the owners of their company and start to make it really uncomfortable for him? The OW is a coworker. Or does that just make me a horrible person? My husband wants to have a "happy" life and I guess he is having a hard time seeing it in the fucking mess that we are in now. No kidding, this is the worst thing ever.

Part of me really doesn't want to lose him. If I leave for Canada by myself, I know he will go back to her. I fear it will just be over forever. I'm so confused and feeling desperate about what to do.

Yes you should expose if you want to save the marriage. Blow it up - sounds like it can't hurt...

I am firmly in the camp of always blowing it up.

I don't believe that you can ever get the result you want by allowing them room to make a decision. Make the best decision for yourself.

The “rule of thumb” is that if you want to try to save the marriage then publically out the affair, but if you want to divorce then keep the matter secret so as to maximize your spouses income for spousal support and for the leverage (note: blackmail is illegal).

Your situation is trickier. You need a lawyer. If you out the affair at work, how will German law view it? Can his employer fire him? Will your husband lose his work visa if he is fired, forcing him to return to Canada? Are there EU or German privacy laws that impact the foregoing? Can you divorce in Germany or only Canada? Which countriy’s laws favor you?

[This message edited by PlanC at 10:49 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Another thing to consider when outing them, is can you support yourself if he loses his job.

Meaning if they fire him, can you support you, or both of you?

What is the plan if that happens?

Are you going back to Canada to work?

You are doing a bit of the pick me dance it sounds, and being sympathetic to him and his pain. This needs to stop. He destroyed your M, and your life. He needs to own this, and see it for what it is, despite any pain or grief he himself is experiencing.

It's like a drunk driver, feeling back for themselves because they wrecked their nice car, instead of feeling bad, for killing another person while driving drunk.

You need to focus on you, your needs, and what you are going to do to get out of infidelity, he can choose to go along, or not, but you need to take control back over your own life.

German law is different from that of th USA, and I think from that of Anglo-speaking Canada.

Would exposing him to the company cause any grief? Germany has different attitudes towards extramarital affairs, I had understood, from a Pew Research Center study on perceptions of extramarital affairs.

So, that means that your exposing tactic, while valid in USA and Canada, might not do anything in Germany.

Have you consulted a lawyer yet? Have you put your finances in order?

Do consult a Canadian lawyer and a German one. If he continues to live in Germany, perhaps German law applies to him, and that could cause financial considerations that might force a decision from him.

OTOH, and this is my broken opinion, go back to Canada, initiate D proceedings, and sue his ass in Germany and Canada. If your WH is working for a startup, which is now common in Germany, any stock that he might be getting would be worthwhile to retain as part of the D agreement, and those shares could appreciate in time.

Furthermore, startups hate D because that dilutes the property and might cause problems down the road. See that as a leverage for a satisfactory negotiation strategy.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has been advised to maintain the pretense of marriage at least until any funding has been secured, and the investors see that their stock won't be diluted or with more partners getting into ownership.

Go get the lawyer, dissolve the nuptial partnership, and ask for your shares in whatever he's working.

And you know you miss the great white north! Winters nearly over...spring is coming...

I seem to remember you saying before that the company he and the OW work for is small. I would guarantee you that everyone already knows they're involved, and are looking the other way.

ZoeS

First I will say I'm so sorry you have to endure this, and on top of it all you are in unfamiliar territory. How hard this must be.

I recognize myself in your words, you are feeling terrible because he is hurting.

Are you a people pleaser? Have you realized your happiness depends on HIS happiness? I'm curious because this is what I'm finding about myself.

As painful and crazy as it is, you're feeling bad that he is hurting. My dear, it's time for YOU to feel fulfilled and be happy. You don't truly want to share him, do you? His unhappiness is his own fault, he chose to pick up another relationship while still smack, dab in the middle of one.

Thank you everyone for your advice and kind words. I decided I couldn't do it. I don't want to ruin his career or job, even if he deserves it (and so does she). I don't want to be that person. Who really knows what would have happened anyway. I still hope that he can figure himself out and realize he made the biggest mistake of his life. Whether I will still want him or not, is another story.

He did somewhat end the affair, but I know they are still messaging and talking about the relationship so the emotional part isn't over. I know he has not let her go in his heart, and that is not what I want or need. I need to be the special one, chosen and cherished. I know he does love me and he knows I am special, but right now it's not enough to make him commit.

I am going to go back to Canada for now, as hard as that is, and as much as I fear leaving him alone will mean they start things up again. I have to relinquish control and let him do whatever he's going to do. If that's what he chooses, it says a lot.

I am too enmeshed with him and need to focus on myself and my own happiness, my years in Germany have taken a huge toll on me because it's just been so hard here and not at all where I wanted to be. It's good advice to consult a German lawyer, I will try to do that before I leave and see if there is anything I need to do.

This is the hardest time in my whole life, I feel like I am watching my life burn down and I just can't stop it. I have tried so many things, but it's all like a throwing a glass of water on a forest fire. I know I will be okay, eventually, but it's so so so sad to look back and wish I could have done things differently, and not ended up in this terrible place.

I think going back to Canada and working on you is the right path. I won’t comment on exposing at work as I can see both sides. I would do it, but think the most important thing right now is to go u home and get support from your family.

Yes it’s important to talk to lawyers in both countries and file wherever they tell you it makes sense.

You can’t predict the future. He may show up at your maple leaf door some day, hat in hand, begging for forgiveness. Truthfully that path will probably be harder than if you are just allowed to get over her.

The high majority of A’s dont end up in long term relationships and I’d venture this one will follow that rule. Making this oh so real and uncomfortable for him by serving D papers and you leaving the continent are the right steps for you to take.

Stay strong.

I am sorry this has happened to you. Speaking from experience. My husband couldn’t give other woman up either after DD.

Those 5 weeks after the affair have done the most damage. As time goes on. It will be the same for you.

You have a great job. Let me bring this up. You do not want to be in Germany. He ignored those wishes. This is a pattern of behavior of puffing his needs and desires first.

What is the situation you return home to? Do you have a home? Place to live? Family and friends?

You seem like a very nice lady. You don’t deserve this kind of treatment from your husband.

Is that how you really want this 'prize' back?

Exposing him at work so he and his OW are forced to deal with a much harder reality and hopefully, she'll no longer be worth all the risk for him so you'll start to look like the better choice and he'll come back to you?

THAT'S how you want someone back?

I'm just being realistic here, but 'exposing' him to his coworkers or his family or his kids or whoever is just another spin on the dance floor because you're doing the "Pick Me!" Dance. When you're hoping he'll 'pick you' because he's disrespecting you to your core by having an affair literally right in your face, than all you're doing is the Pick Me! Dance if you expose the affair in the hopes of winning back this supposed prize.

This is just another form of the Pick Me Dance and there's no dignity or self respect in that at all.

Hold your head high and stop begging someone to come back to you when they can't even show you the common respect most of us show strangers on the street.

I'd be on my way back to Canada rather than be his default 'choice' ONLY because I blew up his affair and he needed somewhere to land. There's just NO dignity in that, ZoeS.

So sorry about all of this. I'm caught up on all of your posts. What I'm not entirely clear on is if you have kids. Do you?

I'm glad you've gotten yourself to a place where you're moving in some positive directions. Still, there are some things in your posts I'd like to address.

I don't want to ruin his career or job

Just remember that if you do decide to expose their affair to the company, it would be *him* that has ruined his career. Not you. The company is free to make its own decisions and probably has policies made to deal with employee relationships. There are many reasons to choose to expose or to *not* expose. I didn't expose, for example, because I think it would have ultimately hurt me financially in my divorce. But if that's not a concern of yours and you really want the affair to end (it hasn't yet), then exposure is probably your best tactic. Does the OW have a husband? If so, he should be told as well.

I can see it is painful for him, and I can see the idea of losing me is also causing him intense grief.

Huh. What a poor guy. Tough life he's got, having to choose between his wife and girlfriend.

Competent people never put themselves in a position to have to make this choice. Remorseful Wayward Spouses choose their spouses and end contact immediately. People still having girlfriends while married *after* their spouse finds out, and moping about it, are immature people living immature lives.

My WH has been undecided

"Undecided" is cheaterspeak (and cheater actions) for "I'm still secretly committed to my affair partner, and we're secretly having sex and dating and writing love notes and planning for a beautiful future together. Buuuuut I'm too afraid to leave my wife, mostly for financial or social reasons, so I'm going to continue to lie to her and use her for a while, probably as long as she'll put up with it. So far it's working out great."

have not been very good about the 180

It's ok. Don't look back, just keep moving forward. You're still so early in the process, it's hard to get good right away. Have you seen this list? http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

These are your "rules." Commit to living this way *without wavering* for 24 hours. Just see how it goes. I bet you'll notice some incredibly positive changes in your situation. If you have questions about the 180, ask. If your husband changes his behavior and you need advice on how to respond, come here and ask before doing so. But keep moving forward.

We had a couple's session with a counsellor today

May I ask why? How can you have an effective "couples" session when your husband actively has a girlfriend?

I've talked about this a lot on here, but there are many pitfalls to doing joint counseling with an active cheater. 1) the WS will just lie during the session. Even little lies will cloud the counselor's (and your) judgment and the therapy you get will be bad as a result. In some extreme cases, the BS can end up being blamed for many things because, frankly, the "story" of the marriage/situation will be skewed. 2) therapists are not necessarily well-versed in the dynamics of infidelity and can actually make things worse, shooting from the hip or going with conventional wisdom (e.g., "What's done is done, no sense going into it now. We have to figure out what drove WS to cheat in the first place.") This (and more) will kill you slowly.

Part of me really doesn't want to lose him.

Sure. Of course. It makes sense that you feel that way, lots of us have been there, myself included. But please try to ask yourself: why would you want to spend one more minute with a guy who secretly got a girlfriend, lied to you about it (and is still lying), and still has this girlfriend? He is treating you like a piece of subhuman trash. You are not subhuman trash. You're a person. Your husband -- the person who you're supposed to be able to rely on more than anyone else in the world -- is treating you like a worthless non-person. Your husband has a girlfriend. As you're reading this, he's either communicating with her or thinking about her.

Getting your mind wrapped around that very harsh truth will help you in your 180 process.

I fear leaving him alone will mean they start things up again.

He did somewhat end the affair, but I know they are still messaging and talking about the relationship so the emotional part isn't over.

He is currently in an active relationship with her. Everything you've written so far indicates it, and it's been seen here thousands of times before. There is no "somewhat" ending an affair. There is no maybe they'll start things up "again." It is a currently active affair.

This is the hardest time in my whole life, I feel like I am watching my life burn down and I just can't stop it. I have tried so many things, but it's all like a throwing a glass of water on a forest fire. I know I will be okay, eventually, but it's so so so sad to look back and wish I could have done things differently, and not ended up in this terrible place.

This is not your fault. I'm not saying your marriage was perfect or that you've been a perfect wife. No one is. But the decision to have an affair has nothing to do with your actions. You were there in the marriage right beside him, walking the same coals of adulthood. And you didn't cheat. Think about that.

Everything else about your last paragraph is raw, emotional, brilliant. This is what it feels like, you're right. And you're also right that you'll eventually be OK. You just need to put one foot in front of the other. You can do this.

[This message edited by Okokok at 9:21 AM, February 21st (Wednesday)]

Thank you so much Iwantmyglasses, I like to think I am a nice lady :)

NoMercy I agree with you totally (as usual). That is exactly what I ultimately decided, that's not the way to do it for me. It felt desperate (although I admit I was feeling kind of desperate).

Okokok, we do not have kids. Thanks for the reality of your post, you're so right of course. The counsellor session was booked with the idea that he was coming to a decision so it could help. I guess she thought he had ended things. I can read his work chat so I KNOW they are still talking about the relationship. He admitted it somewhat anyway. The counsellor tried to get me to reveal that I had evidence/sources, but I wouldn't. I can tell that in her opinion monitoring the spouse is pointless because it makes them defensive and childish and won't really prevent them from doing anything. They can always find a way if they want to. This is one of the reasons I won't be going to her again. The emotional side is ongoing (though much less), but the physical side has stopped (at least for now). But I know. I know. It's active.

After the useless counselling session yesterday when I said I was leaving Germany, we talked on our own. We spoke much more openly about a lot of things, and he shared his feelings about why he is struggling with the decision. We talked more than we have in such a long time in a meaningful way. We talked about how bad things got in our marriage and why, and he admitted he was rewriting history and only seeing the negative aspects. He admitted it was all his fault and anyone else would have left him long ago. He told me he is scared I will never forgive him and whether we can be the best versions of ourselves with each other. I know that a WS is full of crap, but this all felt genuine and I couldn't disagree with it. He also admitted that whether or not the affair feelings are an illusion, it's not how it feels. He would like to try to let her go, but worries he won't be able to. That I won't be able to live with him having these divided feelings for whatever period of time. He worries she is really something special, even though rationally she has a lot of problems and the relationship would probably not work out (she has a 4 year old kid half time and he does not like children at all). He has this idea that it's brave and romantic to follow your heart and risk it all. These ideas hold him back. At the same time, he knows I am special and wonderful and can't imagine his life without me. To work on our relationship and face up to everything he did is also brave. I know. What an asshole. Still, at least his honesty is improving. Is this the fog? Am I just an empathic idiot?

He also has this "core wound" which he has been working on in therapy which is a hyper critical negative inner voice, which constantly tells him he's wrong, worthless and unlovable. It causes him to hide who he is because of shame. It has caused him a lot of anguish for many years and affects him a lot. At work, and in relationships. I know, it's not excuse at all, but it's hard not to feel sympathy for him. I know for certain he isn't making that up. If he's using that to manipulate me somewhat... that could certainly be true. My sister thinks he is just so screwed up it can't be fixed. But yeah, I am a chump and still care about him and love him. Maybe I am codependent. He honestly does have a lot of great qualities, except for the lying and cheating of course.

I felt decided about leaving and not coming back until May to pack my stuff, but when he says he wants to try it makes me want to try. It makes me want to come back earlier and see what happens, and see if he really will come back to Canada with me in June. Or is that a recipe for disaster?

It's true, I don't know for certain that I can forgive him, but I would be willing to give it a chance and see. I'd rather that than everything end with him staying in Germany with her and our whole life together just ending in such an ugly horrible way.

This post makes me feel like an idiot, but these feelings just seem really real, and a lot of what he says seems truly genuine, even if it's not what I want to hear.

You aren’t an idiot. You are a woman in the chaos of infidelity. You are scared to lose your husband.

Reconciliation is so hard. Do you have any idea of horrible it will be for you to drive to the grocery store in 6 months or a year? Have a memory of and Interaction with him. Thinking about how he was with AP?

A wayward in reconciliation must be humble. Can this man be humble?

You are a kind and understanding woman. People like your husband love to use people like you.

He is your husband. He is supposed to protect your heart. How cruel of him to do this and continue this affair.

Your husband is saying exactly the words my husband said. When I finally got a lawyer. This is when he ended affair. It wasn’t because of me. He didn’t want to lose his financial standing and retirement. Almost 2 years later he tries. But I KNOW. I know every word he said. I know all he did. The therapy, the work I have done, the sacrifice. The shit-sandwich. I’ve done this all for my children. For my children.

I am curious if you ever wanted children? Did you give up wanting children to fall in line with his dreams?

Please continue to post and keep us updated. I truly want to know how you are faring. Listen to your sister. She has knowledge and a perception we do not!!

Hi ZoeS

I hope there is some way I can support you - I am also in Germany. I've lived here for nearly 18 years and am currently separated from my German husband of 14 years (I'll give you 3 guesses as to why).

Do ask a German lawyer (Rechtsanwalt fuer Familienrecht) if it would be best for you to file here or in Canada - you very likely have an option. I didn't as we got married here and have only spent one of our married years outside of Germany. Germany is a community property country (50/50 split of marital assets) and does not recognize any basis (i.e., infidelity) for filing - only that the marriage is unsalvageable. There is a one year waiting period (Trennungsjahr) but couples draw up and sign a separation agreement to cover spousal and child support until divorce. You are not obligated to divorce at the end of this year: many remain in the Trennungsjahr as it is financially more beneficial to the less-earning/child-rearing spouse than divorce. Alimony is generally paid for only a third of the length of the marriage at the time of divorce.

Now to the more personal concerns you have. Go home. Love yourself. Create distance between you and your source of affliction, physically, geographically and emotionally. Practice self-care, surround yourself with family and dear friends. Get back on your feet. If he wakes up to the horror he has created one day, he will move heaven and earth to find you. If he doesn't wake up, you don't want him. He's not the man you married. Protect your heart and let the rest develop as it will.

I wish you all the best and am thinking of you.

Everything you're tossing over in your head is very heavy, understandable, and real. It all makes sense.

I guess this could be a place where you may need to take a leap of faith and really dive into the 180.

We have to be clear here: without this man stopping his relationship with his girlfriend, there should be no "I'm willing to give it a chance" or "maybe I'll wait until June." Right?

but when he says he wants to try it makes me want to try.

The first step in him trying is for him to stop communicating with his affair partner. His girlfriend. How long are you willing to give him to take this first step?

Let me give you two pictures of your possible future:

Future #1

You keep going like this, just as you have for the last couple of weeks. Because everything is so confusing and scary and intense, you just do it because you're scared of the alternative. He keeps having a girlfriend. Secret things that you don't even know about will continue to happen. You'll feel it in your bones, he'll lie and half-truth about it. He'll treat you like you're crazy for continually asking him about this stuff and eventually you'll stop asking because you don't want to hurt him or be a "bitch." He'll say things like "See? This is the shit that makes me not want to stay married to you." Because who would want to stay married to a bitch? Eventually you'll find evidence that he slept with her again, or they made out in his car, or they've been exchanging emails every day. Some of those emails will talk about how bad a wife you are, or how shitty you are in bed, or how stupid he thinks you are. And then you'll come back here after D-day #3 (or 4, or 5). This could take weeks, months, years.

Future #2

You take a moment to fully recognize something that's very important: right now you're treating your husband like a priority, and he's treating you like an option. That's what you are to him -- one of two options. And then you fully recognize that even though it's not your fault and you didn't ask for this, this dynamic is not acceptable in any marriage that you're willing to be a part of. It's sad, unexpected, and hurts a lot -- but you recognize in your heart of hearts that you cannot exist as a wife in that kind of marriage.

So you start the 180, beginning the next time you see your husband. You're not mean or cold, you're just calm, distant, stoic. You feel at peace. You breathe calmly. You squeeze a little lemon into a glass of water and take a drink, with a little smile on your face.

You stop asking your husband his whereabouts. You stop talking to him about the affair, past details or current. You stop yelling, fighting, begging, imploring. You're not critical or judgmental. You stop saying I love you, you don't hug or allow yourself to be hugged (just politely say "no thank you"). You don't give gifts, schedule dates, tell him you miss him, tell him he's cute, etc. You don't do any of that. Again -- you're not mean! You are cheerful, outgoing, independent.

No matter what you're feeling inside, *this* is the you that you allow your spouse to see. The cheerful, outgoing, independent, happy you.

You meet friends for lunch and have a great time. You go for walks, put effort into old hobbies or new ones.

You make those plans to travel back to Canada. And you look into the divorce process, get the papers, start filling them out. Don't be afraid, this is a process that you can stop at any time.

In short, you move on with your life. And by taking these steps, it won't be just an act -- you're actually moving forward!

****

Scary, huh? But maybe doable?

That's what the 180 looks like. I want to be clear that it is *not* intended to be a manipulation tactic to trick your husband into choosing you over his girlfriend. But it is a tactic (or series of tactics) designed to help you regain control of your situation and to help you move forward in positive, healthy ways.

That said, a perfectly-implemented 180 often has the added "bonus" of really waking up a WS. Probably within 24-48 hours, he will notice the change in your attitude and behaviors. When he asks about it, you simply say "It's clear to me that you've decided not to give up your girlfriend. So I'm figuring out the best ways to move forward with my life." And variations on that response.

When he gets weirder or more specific, or it appears his behaviors are changing or he's being more manipulative...or even if it starts to look like he's "waking up," feeling remorseful, losing the girlfriend, "choosing you"...you keep the same attitude and behaviors going but come back here for advice.

Then, when the time is right and if you feel like it's the right move for you, you can make a decision about whether or not you're willing to try to reconcile with this man. He'll have to be giving a lot for that to be the healthy choice for you, but ultimately it will be your choice, and you'll be making it in a much clearer, more mindful set of circumstances.

And if he doesn't get there, well then you'll already be well on your way to rebuilding your life. Without children in the picture, this will be an easier process than you think.

What do you think, ZoeS? Do you think you could try the 180 and see what happens? REALLY put effort into sticking with it for a few days? Everyone here can tell you from experience: if your goal is really to salvage a relationship with this man, the things you're doing now will not work. That's not to say that you *can* save this thing -- that takes two of you doing very hard work for a long time, and you can't control his actions -- but what you're doing now will *only hurt you* in the long run. You have to go another way.

I typed a response yesterday, but didn't send it because I just couldn't figure out how to word it right.

But I think THIS is exactly what I was trying to say:

I am going to go back to Canada for now, as hard as that is, and as much as I fear leaving him alone will mean they start things up again. I have to relinquish control and let him do whatever he's going to do. If that's what he chooses, it says a lot.

You asked for tactical help- as if you want to "win." And you have already won. It might not feel like it, but no matter what happens, you have "played" with integrity and grit and what's best for you. Keep going.

Thanks again everyone for your replies and sensible advice. I appreciate it so much.

Yesterday WH and I spoke, and I had the impression that he was sure about trying to let her go and move forward with me. I said I would think about it. I heard back from another counsellor I had contacted and made an introductory appointment (because I thought WH decided and we need a better counsellor). I later found out that WH hadn't decided, he "felt a longing for moving in that direction" that but was still struggling. UGH. Anyway, I did the 180 last night when he got home from work. No thank you, I don't want a hug. He was pretty shocked by that. He made an effort to do some small things around the house for me (and make sure I was noticing him doing it). Yes, thank you for cleaning up the cat vomit but that's not enough right now.

This morning I said I would cancel the appointment with the new counsellor because when I booked it I misunderstood where we were. He asked if I had booked the ticket to Canada, I said no I struggled to yesterday but was doing it today. He asked if I was going until May, and I said, yes I think that's best, I need to move forward with my life.

So then he said, he wants us. He wants the best version of us. I asked what that means. He mentioned all the things that needed to be improved with us and in our marriage (I won't list all that here but I agreed). What he didn't acknowledge enough was that his own misery was largely about him and his problems not our marriage. Anyway, I said, okay that's nice but I need to see some action. He said, what specifically, do I need to pursue you. I said, well not exactly but show me you are committed and sincere and you have to stop talking to her. I was overall sceptical. He asked if I could allow him to be sad about her sometimes and not be mad, I said I understand you're a human with feelings but I don't like that. He said I didn't need to decide if I wanted to try right then, and that I could think about what I want. I could still go to Canada if that's what's best for me and he can stay and handle his work here and start dealing with getting rid of stuff in the apartment, and basically other logistics. It is true, that he has a massive project due in 3 weeks that has been going very badly because he's been such a mess. He said he would work some weekends and evenings if I wasn't here.

So I am back for advice. I cut the conversation short this morning but I'm sure it will continue when he gets home from work. I AM going to Canada even if he wants to try because it's better for me. But, what do I ask from him and expect him to do at this point? I'm leaving in 6 days. I mean, what I want is a tidal wave of love, remorse, self sacrifice and effort. If I don't get that, it's not going to work. But do I ask for it or just keep doing the 180 and see if he starts doing it on his own? I need him to not only stop talking to her on a personal/private level but also let go of his feelings for her. I don't want to be married to someone who thinks someone else is a super special, viable life partner alternative. I don't want to witness a mourning period and I want to be prioritized. I need everything that he isn't giving me and hasn't been giving me for the past year. I also want him to continue working on his own issues in individual counselling. But I would love some advice about how to handle this and what I should be expecting now, what I should be asking for. The other counsellor we are seeing tomorrow, and I am sure he can help us develop a plan. He can also include me in meetings via Skype while I'm away.

Should I stay away for 2 months or just leave it open ended? I could just buy a one way ticket. In any case, I'm coming back in May to pack my stuff and get my cats.

Do I trust him here while I go to Canada for 2 months? Not really, no. I will monitor the situation and see what happens. I will be prepared for the worst and not invest my heart in it at this point because I can't. How closely should I be monitoring? Is the work chat enough or should I take other measures?

It is possible he is pretending to care about my wellbeing so I will go, and he will just start up again and see how he feels about it. I don't believe he intends to do that, however he has manipulated me before. If he is serious about moving back to Canada he will need to take actions like giving notice at work, and notice on our apartment (in Germany you need to give 3 months notice). If he picks up with her again, I will send him divorce papers.

But all of this is bringing me back to the point where now I get to decide: do I want him? I have made all this effort, but do I want to R? I personally think it's okay if I don't know. Is it okay? I'm sure he would prefer guarantees but I don't think I have to give it. I appreciate the comments about how hard R is, and I truly don't know if I can forgive him right now. But he hasn't really done anything up until now to warrant forgiveness so I think that's to be expected.

I don't want him to come to Canada just to follow me. I want it to be what he really wants. If he feels he's leaving dreams behind here in Berlin, that's no good. I don't want a miserable man that can only half-ass R and M.

Iwantmyglasses: I have always been ambivalent about children, but yes, being with him meant it wasn't happening and it has been an issue between us (especially the last few years). I still feel pulled in both directions about it. If I was with someone who really wanted kids, I probably would have had one.

BeStill: Thank you so much. I think I can file for D in Canada once I am there, and all or most of the assets are there so it makes sense. I have already spoken to a Canadian lawyer. In Canada the 1 year waiting period is waved in cases of infidelity.

Okokok: Thank you for so specifically helping me with the 180. You were so right, it made a difference and I feel different as well.