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Beginning of the week blues, and wondering what forgiveness looked like for you (WS and BS perspectives are much appreciated)?

I haven't even began to think about forgiveness. I am not sure that we will actually ever reach that point. At a year out, I think my husband hopes to one day to reach acceptance. I don't know when or if that happens either.

The only thing we can control is ourselves. I am trying to think of it the same way... maybe I can one day come to a place of acceptance on so many things. That I did this, I can't unring that bell, that things will never be the same.

I think the best thing to concentrate on is what are you going to do moving forward to become someone worthy of your spouse? What are the things that led you down a path of being able to do this and work towards changing them. I have found that there are so many things I need to change that I can get overwhelmed with all of it. I journal a lot and type on here so I can make the revelations within myself that I can work on. They pop up all the time, and some things are easier to resolve than others.

Start with your whys. That helped me start changing my perceptions and seeing my blindspots.

Read my post in Reconciliation. 7 years and happy.

I'd try to paraphrase, but would probably leave some stuff out.

As a BH forgiveness is inseparable with grace. Grace is a gift and is much different that giving a second chance. Sometimes those have to be earned.

I also feel that things given too freely are often taken as less valuable than things that require investment. It is too easy to take things for granted when they are given too freely.

I'm not sure I will ever forgive myself for cheating on my H. Does one ever forgive themselves for murder? That's essentially what I did, emotional murder. He physically lived through his murder with the knowledge that it was his wife who did it in cold blood. I’m supposed to forgive myself for that? I don’t think I can. What I can do is accept this fact and I'm afraid that's as close as I can get.

I think there is an area that I can offer self-forgiveness. It's something I've been thinking about lately, maybe the next step for me. I let myself down in big ways, I set myself up for a life of betrayal when I betrayed myself first long ago. I never stopped to question myself, my character, humans are meant to rise above animals with consciousness/awareness. With it we can stop to judge ourselves against our morals and standards. I allowed inner and outer forces to deaden my good senses. I didn't judge myself or even take an interest in my better self. I didn’t rise above, no better than an ant on autopilot.

So yeah since the harm was done to myself, I think that is something I can forgive myself for. However, not sure I'm there yet. It will take more time and consistency. I have to prove it to myself I guess, that I can and will always choose awareness.

But all the pain I've caused to others during this time, forgive myself? nope. My only hope is to reach acceptance, apologize to those I've hurt and do better. I think that's all I can do really.

hikingout and foreverlabeled -- thank you for your insights. There seems to be literature both ways, recovery and reconciliation without/with forgiveness. In either case, it points to the same end goal -- to be able to move forward without resentment (R or D). To both your points, I don't think I or BS will ever look back and think about it without some sort of pain, disgust, or shame. For us WS, we (hopefully) see that there were many flaws with the "I" who was able to betray and commit the worst act to a person (aside from murder -- to your point foreverlabeled) possible. No less to our BS who we vowed to love and cherish forever. So, the "I" has to a different (better) person if there is any hope to help BS heal, for us, as decent human beings, or (wishful) hope for R and thriving M. I have been thinking a lot about the key to this is living that the "I" of tomorrow is better than the "I" of today, every single day. Then maybe come to accept these things we did are threads in a much larger fabric? The fabric will always be tainted if you focus only on those threads, but if enough (good) has been woven above and beyond them, then they will naturally be less noticeable and with less frequency. One day maybe...

numb&dumb -- I have read many of your posts actually and they are hopeful. If it's not too troublesome or an imposition, would you be able to provide some detail as to how it came about? Was it a sort-of an a-ha moment or something that gradually just happened? I apologize if that is inappropriate and I know all BS and WS are different, but the stories are encouraging, just knowing/reading that it happened for some couples.

[This message edited by destroyedwayward at 11:11 AM, September 26th (Wednesday)]

If I could paraphrase for my W:

I have been thinking a lot about the key to this is living that the "I" of tomorrow is better than the "I" of today, every single day.

This is very close to her experience. Her growth doesn't stop. R does not have an end. You just start living your life that way and stop calling it R.

No there was no single Ah-Ha moment. It was like one day I realized I had forgiven this or that. There are too many aspects impacted by Dday to address everything at once. It is thousands of little betrayals and hurts. You can't treat it as a single entity. Even the aspects you think about the lying, sexual infidelity, the loss of innocence, the robbing the M of focus/attention. Those are really categories that contain lots of items.

It was gradual over a long period of time. No single event stands out for me. It was like one day . . .oh, I guess I do forgive her for this. Later on I would forgive her for that. On and on that process went. I will say that forgiveness does have a cost for anyone that is like me. I've never felt comfortable with the forgiveness is for me interpretation. I tend to focus on grace instead. Google the "cost of forgiveness" you will see some great articles that talk about that further.

I had to learn to practice grace. Little by little. I had to see my W faced as many consequences as I did, if not more. We both had to believe in our deepest selves that the A was not about me at all. It was a choice she made without my involvement, knowing that I would never agree with it, yet I have to live with those consequences. That one is very important for a lot of BS. To get that to the Nth degree and demonstrate that to your BS so they accept it as truth. FWIW it impossible to do that with a good level of trust being built.

Trust had to be restored. How can you have a heart to heart when you can't/won't believe the person saying those words. How can you really prove a feeling without words ? If you find a way please let me know because I've never found one.

The thing about grace it is a concept very foreign to a lot of us. We don't always recognize it when we see it either. I think that my pride wouldn't let me get there. My W had to show me grace first and carefully explain to me why she was working towards letting something in the past go and how. Those conversations were very healing and allowed me to see she took ownership for her choices. She took responsibility for any part that contributed to it (even when it was my fault). My W is a remarkable woman and she was able to show me that a little of that long before I ever did. I admired her for being able to do that and it caused me to examine within myself why I do something I valued and admired.

Try practicing grace yourself, include your H in that process and communicate with him about it (even if it does not involve him). Just be clear it is not a "I did bad and now found Jesus," but rather your choices have shown you that you lacked a certain humility. You held grudges, etc. You can't expect him to forgive you unless you work on being able to forgive others. Why are you due forgiveness/grace but certain others are not ?

Communication without emotional flooding is also a key aspect of this. You have to be able to talk about very painful things without becoming defensive or angry. Those opportunities turn into new hurts all too easily.

I'm writing because my view is a little different from n&d's - not better, not worse, a little different. Maybe I just use different words.

To me, 'forgive' means 'give up any desire for revenge or for the person I'm forgiving to be punished.' I wanted to R with all my heart, but I never expected to forgive my W. Luckily, a lot of folks on SI told me forgiveness wasn't required for R.

At 2 years out, I decided I could not come up with a way to R and to punish my W without adding to my own pain, so I stopped plotting revenge. One day 3.5-4 years out, I realized I had forgiven my W (by the definition I use).

It was no big deal for me. It just happened. I believe I forgave because my W earned it, but it could have been grace ... maybe I forgave even though cheating is unforgivable. Maybe I forgave because, as M1965 once said, one forgives a person, not an act. IDK, and I see no way of analyzing my motivations.

It was such a non-event to me that I didn't mention it to my W. She read one of my posts some months ago in which I mentioned it, and it was a big deal to her.

I think the biggest reward for my W is learning to change her self-talk. She beats herself up a lot, but she is slowly turning the attacking voices down. If I had realized that 4 years ago, I would have told her I forgave her, since it would have been a way to show emotional support.

I forgave my ExWW but could live with her no longer. Should moved in with my former friend and the father of her child. To hold that over the head of someone who was out of my life would have only hurt me.

n&d,sisoon - the details of your forgiveness and reconciliation are both heartbreaking and uplifting. As a WW, your stories provide great perspective into what BS is feeling. As pointed out by the WS in earlier posts, we did this to ourselves. I know that my own acceptance will not come easily, so cannot even imagine what it asks of BS to accept or forgive. BS is a kind man, who has been hardened because of my betrayal. What he has to endure to process all I've done is insurmountable. So, if his recovery and maybe R is to come, I know it'll be completely due to his grace. I wake up every morning wishing that his "self" is restored just a little bit. I never stop wondering what I can do to help this.

fooled -Forgiving seems to have enabled you to let go of some hurt. The attack on you by WS (that we commit as WS as a result of our own terrible flaws) is devastating. I'm so sorry for all you underwent and may continue to carry as a scar.

I apologize in advance for the following rambling:

It's been a tough few weeks confronting my actions and the full range of the consequences I face and not to mention, forced onto BS. I think I'm entering the "owning it" phase and have been in the "grieving the M" for a couple weeks now. He has not initiated any talk about the cheating, us, physically intimate interaction, or what he needs. So, I offer/ask daily in these areas and provide whatever he is "ok" with receiving. I have always been the communicator in our relationship. I confessed to EA/ONS and now write weekly emails summarizing what I am discovering on my "whys" and what I'm working on. I am taking action in all the love languages. 3 months'ish out, though I know the outcome is out of my hands, I can't help reading into everything BS does (hence my looking for "signs" I guess of whether he may eventually accept or forgive). I don't know if what I'm doing is helping him...

I know I must be patient and be prepared for whatever/whenever he does want to share. I am focusing on the remorse I feel for him, but I can't help the occasional times that I am just so scared. Thank you all for sharing and for listening.

write weekly emails summarizing what I am discovering on my "whys" and what I'm working on.

That's a great idea. Wish my WH had done that. Seems to kill at least two birds: 1: WS is doing the work of checking his/her progress - what DID I learn about/change this week? and 2: BS is "in the loop" of what's being learned about/changed to help WS become a safer partner.

wish I'd seen this 8 months ago....

You are so early in this process, it's quite the journey y'know. Based off your morning rambling alone, you seem to be on the right track (and started off on the right track). I'm trying to think where I was three months out, and all I can remember is a lot of pain. HB was ending and the anger stage was setting in, showing up completely at four months out. Tough times.

I can tell you though forgiveness was the furthest from either of our thoughts in any kind of direction. I would caution you to not get hung up on that. I was grateful just to be back in my home with him. That was good enough for me at the moment. And "signs" are confusing as the roller coaster is always on the move. Just be consistent.

I guess there are some exceptions as always but we can't really look to our BSs for things like support, love and affection. Not this early and even for some time to come. It takes humbling ourselves in ways we probably couldn't imagine before, accepting the rejection and yet still offer all that we can in support, love, and affection.

Keep in mind how long it usually takes for our BSs to get on the other side trauma, they say 2-5 years.

gmc94 - I wish you luck with your WS. BS and I used to exchange emails then text often. As things settle (in terms of the newness of a relationship), we did less of these things. I harbored ill feelings for the complacency (of this and other things) which I chose to become resentful and use as one of my 'whys'. I think of these "little things" now and I wish I could approach so differently. I can only hope that my BS will allow me the chance. Thank you for your positive feedback.

foreverlabeled - you have replied to my posts before and I want to thank you for those responses and your current feedback. I must drill into my head that patience is key. The 2-5 year timeline is so very daunting especially (as you said) at this early in my journey. I admit that I am very envious of the "exceptions". I have read hours upon hours here on SI. When I see similarities of what BS feel the WS did right, I can't help but think "I'm doing the right things it seems, and that BS is healing and able to offer gift of R. Maybe my BH is and can too?" Then, the truth sinks in that there is no amount of right things that will correct the wrong done. (One poster so aptly wrote) WS can only hope for redemption, which implies re-invention. I admit struggle with staying consistent and focused on what actions I can take to foster his healing, while being rejected. I realize that remorse must be practiced to fluency here. Another BH in a previous post pointed out (though difficult to accept but very much understood) that a WS is often the BS biggest trigger. He has barely looked at me for nearly a month. It is disheartening as I feel my presence is an impediment to his recovery. Another selfish admission that it is heartbreaking personally because it feels like he is and will remain out of love (which I am fully to blame).

Thank you again. All your words encourage me to continue to offer whatever I can to BS as well as possibly inspire forgiveness.

[This message edited by destroyedwayward at 7:20 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

Hmmm...you asked for stories of forgiveness, so that's what you got.

Let me add that your healing, your changing from betrayer to good partner, would best be done by letting go of the outcome. Whether your H forgives you or not is beside the point. That is simply not something you can control.

What counts is what you do. Someone - funnelcakes? - wrote about 'doing the next right thing.' You control what you do, so you can keep doing the next right thing. That's pretty much all we can expect of ourselves. We can ask the same of others, but they're free to accept or reject our requests.

@destroyedwayward

I am sorry you are feeling the blues and scared and worried that you aren't doing enough or the right things, or what the right things are. I hear you. I feel this way very often.

As the WW I too often wonder what can I do to help him. How many opportunities did I miss while stuck in my shame and self protection? How can I possibly ever make amends. And if I'm not careful I can crush myself under the weight of it all which makes me completely incapable. So, instead I try to put one foot in front of the other and I give every interaction, every thought, every moment my best.

Forgiveness seems to mean different things to different people. I don't expect my WH to ever forgive me. I do hope that he will find peace and healing and that we can build a new marriage together. That is what I work towards.

I don't know if I will ever forgive myself. I don't think about it, it feels moot to me. I don't feel it is necessary to forgive myself in order to do what I need to do.

I heard the phrase: "Forgiveness isn't a cognitive decision, it's an emotional journey" Maybe that's helpful, maybe not.

Either way, just wanted to you know I hear you, Mondays suck, sometimes they suck for days. And in those moments of weakness and blues and trying to pick yourself back up-- know you're not alone.

Just my 2c here. I would highly recommend that you do NOT bring up or ask for forgiveness. My FWW did this within days and all it did was piss me off. About 2 1/2 years after d-day, she said that she would forgive me for having an affair. That pissed me off, too.

Forget about forgiveness for the foreseeable future. There are far more important things to focus on.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 9:36 PM, September 28th, 2018 (Friday)]

Hearing all of this from the WW here makes me cry. 😢

I love that any of you feel enough remorse to even feel or think any of the things you are expressing here. I beg god to.bring about any of this kind of feeling from my own WW. But its always dismissive this could happen to anyone, "these aren't affairs..." and it kills me a little more every day. Id be gone from this place and give in to the eternal darkness already, but my children would be hurt by this, and so I try to soldier on. But I've never felt more dead inside, more worthless than I do.right now.

But you guys give me hope, I read this section often because you guys even asking the questions shows me that there are women out there who are trying to make amends and put right this horrible wrong.

I just wanted you all to know that.

Emptyshelldad, I've been following your journey in JFO. No one deserves this its mean and cruel, and for you to have to go through it again, my heart drops to my stomach thinking of you. It's not the apology you need, but I am deeply sorry for your pain. I do hope you find your way to healing and the things you DO deserve. I know you love your WW but she is remorseless, mean and cruel.

Does she know about SI? Would you feel comfortable sending her here? Of course she would have to be willing and I doubt it.. but I just think if she spent some time here and posted someone could give her a dose of some hard truths.

Anyway, my best thoughts are with you ESD

Sorry about the mini thread jack DW, I am glad that I can encourage you. You will need it, I promise you that. Harness that shit

Right now as sisoon mentioned,

I think the biggest reward for my W is learning to change her self-talk.

This was my initial starting point with my work. The amount of negative thoughts towards myself were relentless, no one could say worse to me than I was already thinking. My self talk was harsh and degrading. I see it here in your words, the negative talk. Do some research on how you can challenge your negative thoughts. Your BH needs you to be at your best and I know all too well how impossible that feels 3 months in, my IC was encouraging me to do this at less than a month out, I couldn't change all the thoughts but it was a start, I made it a habit still, and it did help further down the road with my BH and myself.

Another thing he said,

'doing the next right thing.' You control what you do, so you can keep doing the next right thing.

At it's simplest form this is all we can do. We KNOW whats right and whats wrong, as long as we strive to do the next right thing, taking it minute by minute if we have to, you will always be on the right road moving forward.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 9:25 AM, September 29th (Saturday)]

@sisoon - The folks on SI have been so insightful. Thank you for pointing out the need to let go of the outcome. Actually, not even the need, it's the reality. The outcome is beyond my control, my motivations to heal must be for the purpose of healing and rectifying what made me think it was acceptable and made me capable of cheating. It does make it seem less out of reach when put this way... "the next right thing".

@mysunandstars - your post reads of someone with such conviction in this journey. Your encouragement is so very appreciated and you are very kind to offer this to a total stranger. "I don't feel it is necessary to forgive myself in order to do what I need to do." This is absolutely so right. After all, I spilled and spoiled the milk (so to speak). And this -- "Forgiveness isn't a cognitive decision, it's an emotional journey" was like a (much needed) smack in the face. I've committed to memory already. Thank you SS.

@unhinged - noted. Unfortunately, I already made this mistake. =( It was framed with very specific apologies and asked (not demanded or as a closing statement after blame-shifting). Growing up, I was often taught that an apology must come with admission of fault to whomever I've wronged. I guess this naturally just comes with asking for forgiveness. I can certainly see how this is absolutely insulting in the case of infidelity. I blew up his world, and said sorry and thought forgiveness is possible. Short-sighted, selfish, and inability to grasp the full extent of the consequences on BS and the life he built around us. Thank you for keeping it real.

@esd - as foreverlabeled said, it is not the apology you need from who needs to be giving it. But, I am so sorry for your pain and the destruction we as WW bring, unilaterally, with no regard to you at the time we make wrong choice after wrong choice. Truly, I hope you find peace, with or without your WS. Stay strong for yourself and your kids. You must.

@foreverlabeled - I never thought about it this way "Your BH needs you to be at your best" because as you so accurately pointed out, I am so ashamed. I struggle greatly with finding my footing again. In these months, I've learned that in the past 2 years or so, I have strayed from even trying to be my best. I let so much resentment consume me. I'd lost so much sense of self-validation. And when I perceived having been completely abandoned (thinking that was conceived in my formative years), I couldn't do the brave thing and face myself. I will keep your advice regarding self-hate close to heart and mind, forever. Again, extending my thanks for your support.

There are 3 main pieces to forgiveness that my IC and I have been talking about, at least in affairland.

Forgiveness is mercy: not giving someone what they deserve. A wayward deserves divorce and to be abandoned by the spouse they betrayed, the same way they abandoned their BS. The first step in forgiveness is deciding not to enforce this consequence of betrayal.

Forgiveness is not justice: evening the scales. Getting even. In affairland, this would most often be seen as a revenge affair, but could also take the form of demanding or expecting a WS to compensate somehow for that which cannot be compensated. This desperate search to level the scales of justice means forgiveness has not happened yet.

Lastly, forgiveness is grace: giving someone what they do not deserve. This piece is the most difficult for those trying to R. It means not just accepting that things will never be "fair" or just, but also choosing to extend the gift of trust, of vulnerability, of a happy marriage, to the WS who does not deserve it.

Obviously, grace in that regard should only be given to a spouse doing the work to be safe. But this is what forgiveness in R means to me.

That last piece, grace, takes years. The 2-5 year range we see is largely due to that piece. I think many BS can get through the first 2 steps quicker, but end up in that resentment phase that we need to resolve in order to truly give grace to our WS.

TW - thank you for this breakdown. It is a very practical approach to the concept which is much appreciated. It is evident how the last part (giving grace) is the hardest and also mentioned by previous posters. It is a tough pill to swallow especially because as the BS, the wronged party, you are essentially saying "ok, you proved you can wreck my life, but I am choosing to give you another opportunity to potentially do it again". Impossible task. I have read other posts that compassion and empathy by the BS (in no way is this owed to the WS even if they do all the right work) could play a part in forgiveness. I've just recently gotten that I have fundamentally changed BS so while he was someone who gave these so freely before (compassion and empathy that is), he may no longer be. And I did that. I know I am not deserving of anything from him right now, so am very thankful for the support and feedback received here.

[This message edited by destroyedwayward at 5:18 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]