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Low self esteem

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 landclark (original poster member #70659) posted at 3:37 AM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

My WH has been going to IC. He had his third appointment today. I think this is absolutely necessary for him, whether we R or not. I truly appreciate the work he’s doing and on the surface, he’s doing and saying all the right things to prove that he can be a safe partner for me. I say all this because I in no way want to be dismissive or seem ungrateful, or whatever the right word is.

The IC believes that this is all a result of low self esteem. That low self esteem is the root cause. My WH seems eager to accept this to help explain his behaviors. There’s also talk of disassociation and thrill seeking, but main focus has been low self esteem. I do absolutely think that he has some esteem issues. I knew this back when we first dated. Funny enough he used to worry about me cheating. Anyway, she says that he may not even realize he has low esteem. That sometimes it’s subconscious. He was a very awkward short teenager that blossomed in college to a tall, good looking man. I completely get how high school can stay with you though.

Here’s my concern. I don’t feel like this is ultimately a valid why. Yes he has low self esteem, yes he may not consciously realize it, but he did consciously choose to cheat. That’s absolutely a conscious choice that he made that went on for years in some way. Instead of finding other ways to feed his ego, feed his need for thrill, he chose cheating.

Am I being overly critical here? Maybe it really is that simple for some people? I’m a very internally motivated person who likes to understand and examine why I do and feel the things I do, and I just feel like this isn’t digging very deep. I’m only 8 weeks and a few days from dday and could just be overly harsh right now. Lol He is also only three visits in, but last two visits have focused on this topic.

Any thoughts? If you tell me yes, it’s sometimes that simple, I can accept that. Just looking for other opinions.

Thank you!

Me: BW Him: WH (GuiltAndShame) Dday 05/19/19 TT through AugustOne child together, 3 stepchildrenTogether 13.5 years, married 12.5

First EA 4 months into marriage. Last ended 05/19/19. *ETA, contd an ea after dday for 2 yrs.

posts: 2061   ·   registered: May. 29th, 2019
id 8406880
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Unhinged ( member #47977) posted at 4:28 AM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

I think your WH needs to dig a little deeper and figure out why he has such low self-esteem.

Married 2005
D-Day April, 2015
Divorced May, 2022

"The Universe is not short on wake-up calls. We're just quick to hit the snooze button." -Brene Brown

posts: 6787   ·   registered: May. 21st, 2015   ·   location: Colorado
id 8406909
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downunderchump ( member #70918) posted at 6:06 AM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

That’s a total cop out. Plenty of people have low self esteem and they don’t cheat. He needs a better IC.

The problem with these glib diagnoses is that it gives the cheater an out but also puts the BS in the terrible position of trying to help build the poor muppets self esteem up at the same time as dealing with the trauma of betrayal. Which means the BS misses out on their healing.

posts: 58   ·   registered: Jul. 2nd, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8406923
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Countingsheep65 ( member #56000) posted at 6:24 AM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

I don’t believe that’s a valid “why” either, I call it BS, just a excuse for his shitty behavior, they know what they are doing.

posts: 452   ·   registered: Nov. 11th, 2016
id 8406928
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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 10:00 AM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

It makes sense because as you mentioned, you noticed it early on in your relationship. However why he chose to cheat bears some digging.

He could have taken up sports or a hobby or something else. Why he chose to cheat needs to be explored.

IMO there is no other reason for cheating other than “because the cheater wanted to”. The cheater knows it is wrong but doesn’t care. They choose to cheat despite that.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 12 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

posts: 14833   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8406939
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PeaceLily210 ( member #48607) posted at 2:08 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

While I believe it is valid as a reason why, it's not complete. It's a very shallow beginning and he needs to continue to dig in. WHY does he have low self esteem? While many people do, and it does lead some to this behavior, WHY did he specifically choose this behavior??

For my WH, the low self esteem was just the tip of the iceberg. He had to dig a lot deeper into the FOO issues, how he was taught to cope (or not) with life issues, needing validation from women (mom issues), escapism, entitlement, selfishness etc.

I think it's unfair to say that it's not valid for one person because others didn't respond to low self esteem by cheating. Everyone responds differently to the things life throws at them.

I was abused as a child and developed behaviors and poor coping strategies because of that. I have a friend who was also abused as a child who developed equally dysfunctional, yet different harmful behaviors and coping strategies. That doesn't mean that our behaviors aren't equally due to the abuse.

So, in answer to your question, you are NOT being overly critical. You are 100% correct that there is more to it. It has taken my WH 4+ years, 2 ICs and some MC to get to where he is now and while I've seen significant and real change, he still has much work to do. Real change isn't easy and there's no quick path to it.

(edited for clarity and spelling)

[This message edited by PeaceLily210 at 8:11 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]

He cheated - It was bad
He changed - yes, they can change
We both put in the work and continue to work on our healed M.
R is possible!

posts: 1867   ·   registered: Jul. 15th, 2015   ·   location: By the sea
id 8407000
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 2:18 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

Remember: you don't know what the IC actually said; you know only what your H heard and shared.

There are many ways to describe why a person cheated. IMO, my W cheated because of self-hate. I'm OK thinking of that as 'low self-esteem.'

Other people emphasize the 'external validation' aspect of As - the WS gets ego kibbles from aps. That's true of my W, too.

The real key is what the WS does to solve the problem. I think low SE is inculcated into everyone in Western culture. How do we keep our SE high?

How does a person or WS develop high SE? (ETA: does that mean I don;t see WSes as persons...? )

How does a person avoid betraying anyone when his SE is under daily attack from media messages?

The thing is: it's not easy to change from low SE to high SE. And as difficult as that is, it's only part of the work WSes need to do.

[This message edited by sisoon at 8:19 AM, July 17th (Wednesday)]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31199   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8407004
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deephurt ( member #48243) posted at 2:38 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

I believe all ws’s suffer from low self esteem and have disassociative traits to their personality. But it’s only the surface whys. How and why did he become that way and why did he have to hurt you to make himself feel better. He has a lot more digging to do. Tell him he needs to continue to ask why until there are no more whys that can be asked.

me-BW
him-WH


so far successfully in R

posts: 3775   ·   registered: Jun. 13th, 2015   ·   location: Canada
id 8407015
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mamabear22 ( member #62311) posted at 3:02 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

Interesting post.

I would be happy if my FWH and his IC would recognize that he has LSE (Low Self Esteem).

I have thought for quite a while that it was a big factor in the affair. His LSE was a big factor as he was seeking attention and the attention from AP made him feel good. Also a big factor was the gratification he got from the attention he received from AP. That new love high and excitement.

I think that the IC should be helping him learn to have a better SE and not require the attention from others.

Like 1stwife said

IMO there is no other reason for cheating other than “because the cheater wanted to”. The cheater knows it is wrong but doesn’t care.

I believe this too, but believe that the cheater wanted the attention, and gratification from the high of the affair.

But had he had better self esteem then maybe he wouldn't have been excited to get the attention from someone else.

I do believe that, at least in my case that it was many components that aligned at the wrong time. His low SE, and someone that had equally or worse SE that hooked up. I don't feel he had a real attraction to her (how could he

)but if it had been any one giving him that attention he was looking for they would have been the one. Actually he did have a couple of EA with others that I believe saw where it was heading and checked out.

What I think my FWH needs to figure out is why that was not enough from me, I thought our marriage was the best that it ever had been. Why did he need to seek attention outside our marriage? the only thing I can come up with was Low self Esteem. like you landclark,

is it just that simple?

Me - BS (42)
WH - 48
6 month emotional and PA
I think that was all, still TT
Married 21 years
DDay - August 2017
Reconciling - at least trying to.

posts: 392   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2018   ·   location: canada
id 8407029
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 landclark (original poster member #70659) posted at 8:20 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

While I believe it is valid as a reason why, it's not complete. It's a very shallow beginning and he needs to continue to dig in. WHY does he have low self esteem? While many people do, and it does lead some to this behavior, WHY did he specifically choose this behavior??

This is exactly what I am getting at. I have no doubt that that the low self esteem contributed to it, but why choose the route of cheating? IMO it's not as simple as I have low esteem so I choose to cheat. There is something deeper there. Why was it so easy for him to do it? Even after the first time, he kept doing it, with no issue. Why was it so darn easy?

I have pushed back on him to really find his why while working on the low SE.

I thought our marriage was the best that it ever had been. Why did he need to seek attention outside our marriage?

I was also under this impression. I would never think that four months into marriage it suddenly wasn't enough for him.

Me: BW Him: WH (GuiltAndShame) Dday 05/19/19 TT through AugustOne child together, 3 stepchildrenTogether 13.5 years, married 12.5

First EA 4 months into marriage. Last ended 05/19/19. *ETA, contd an ea after dday for 2 yrs.

posts: 2061   ·   registered: May. 29th, 2019
id 8407196
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 8:35 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

Low self esteem might explain the craving for outside validation, but it doesn't make an otherwise honest person choose to lie and deceive. Either you're honest at your core, or you're not, right? He's not. Why is that? Is it something he's willing to explore and repair?

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs); Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 10

posts: 7098   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8407201
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hdybrh ( member #69288) posted at 8:48 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

"The IC believes that this is all a result of low self esteem. " vs "The IC believes that this is partially a result of low self esteem.

Big difference... as others have said. Three sessions in is just scratching the surface. A why does not mean a justification. His Whys are not simple probably yet to be uncovered and may never be fully understood. Low SE may be one of many valid "why's." As a BS it would be great to get a good answer to Why!?! but perhaps no answer(s) will ever suffice. IC is and should be intense hard work over the long term.

Low self esteem may be a good first place to start unpacking the issues that led to infidelity. Good IC is about healing the whole person not just recovering from the A. And digging into the why behind low self-esteem will be telling as well.

Really hard to be patient with the process but as long as he's not accepting low SE as an easy explanation/justification and is willing to dig more (and the therapist is ready to dig) and be open, remorseful and accountable than he could be on a good path.

posts: 189   ·   registered: Dec. 31st, 2018
id 8407207
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 landclark (original poster member #70659) posted at 9:14 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

Low SE may be one of many valid "why's.

Valid was probably not the right choice of words on my part. I just believe there is more to it.

Really hard to be patient with the process but as long as he's not accepting low SE as an easy explanation/justification and is willing to dig more (and the therapist is ready to dig) and be open, remorseful and accountable than he could be on a good path.

I think he is definitely remorseful, but I guess time will tell. It is very hard to be patient though. So hard.

Me: BW Him: WH (GuiltAndShame) Dday 05/19/19 TT through AugustOne child together, 3 stepchildrenTogether 13.5 years, married 12.5

First EA 4 months into marriage. Last ended 05/19/19. *ETA, contd an ea after dday for 2 yrs.

posts: 2061   ·   registered: May. 29th, 2019
id 8407216
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cocoplus5nuts ( member #45796) posted at 9:41 PM on Wednesday, July 17th, 2019

You will probably never be satisfied with his whys. There is really no valid reason to cheat (except extreme mental illness that results in a complete psychotic episode). Nothong any cheater comes up with, even if it's the truth, will make sense to a noncheater.

My fch had low self esteem. You wouldn't have known it from the outside. He didn't know it. He needed external validation and acceptance. If he felt he wasn't getting that, he felt like a failure, a bad person. He got the external validation and acceptance, i.e. ego kibbles, from the MOW. He was getting his ego fed, which made him feel good, so he cheated. That's really all there is to it.

Of course, he should have talked to me about how he felt. Or, talked to a professional, or his unit chaplain, or his father, or a real friend. He certainly had plenty of opportunities since he went to counseling with me whenever he could. But, he didn't. Instead, the chose to cheat.

The question is, why, in spite if all those available and known options, did he choose to cheat? I don't know if I'll ever get an answer to that.

Me(BW): 1970
WH(caveman): 1970
Married June, 2000
DDay#1 June 8, 2014 EA
DDay#2 12/05/14 confessed to sex before polygraph
Status: just living my life

posts: 6900   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2014   ·   location: Virginia
id 8407237
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HouseOfPlane ( member #45739) posted at 12:37 AM on Thursday, July 18th, 2019

The IC believes that this is all a result of low self esteem. That low self esteem is the root cause.

Just as the much of the pain felt by the BS is due to a hit on self-esteem.

DDay 1986: R'd, it was hard, hard work.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?”
― Mary Oliver

posts: 3383   ·   registered: Nov. 25th, 2014
id 8407315
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cancuncrushed ( member #28156) posted at 12:49 AM on Thursday, July 18th, 2019

Everyone has low self esteem, at some point...

You learn to face it, over come it...deal with it....some have it worse then others...does it make you a cheater? I don't think so.....a cheater still cheats because they chose to....

Every person in the world would be cheating if this were the absolute truth...

Don't accept the easy excuses....he may not know why yet....but I doubt this is it..

a trigger yesterday

posts: 4775   ·   registered: Apr. 6th, 2010   ·   location: athome
id 8407319
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gmc94 ( member #62810) posted at 1:12 AM on Thursday, July 18th, 2019

The question is, why, in spite if all those available and known options, did he choose to cheat?

bingo.

EVERYONE has problems. As Sissoon pointed out, most of us have some form of low SE... but we don't cheat.

I can think of a million "reasons" to cheat. From my FOO to low SE to damn, sex feels GOOD! But I never cheated, despite opportunities (there was a point where my SE was so low that once a guy hit on me, I left the event went straight home asked my husband if I was reading the other man's signals correctly... he said yes, and then got extremely PO'd.... of course, I had no clue at the time he was balls deep with his girlfriend).

How did cheating become acceptable behavior to the WS?

Like others, I think its important for the WS to dig through all of those whys, as I don't see how else one digs through their issues to make changes to become a safe partner.

But

I also believe that the ultimate answer is pretty simple: Because I could and because I didn't care about any consequences. IMO, at bottom, that's how they chose cheating over the million other choices every WS had, from divorce to counseling to taking up knitting. They did it bc they could and did not give a damn about us or any other consequence - because if they cared, they would not have done it.

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

posts: 3828   ·   registered: Feb. 22nd, 2018
id 8407329
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BellaLee ( member #58324) posted at 12:41 AM on Saturday, July 20th, 2019

Hi @landclark so sorry you're having to deal with this. In my opinion and experience, I do think low self esteem can play a huge part but as you rightly pointed out, it's still a choice your WH made consciously.

I don't think the cause of infidelity is ever simple or straight forward but what is really important, is that the offending spouse makes no excuses and take full responsibility for their actions and choices.

It's great that your WH is doing all he can to rebuild the broken trust and going to IC. I hope and pray that he stays committed to keep doing this as long as it takes and for healing and R to come to you and your marriage.

posts: 270   ·   registered: Apr. 18th, 2017
id 8408213
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 9:42 PM on Saturday, July 20th, 2019

The question is, why, in spite if all those available and known options, did he choose to cheat?

Hmmm...I think better questions are ones like:

What is he willing to do to switch to self-love and high self-esteem? (If he's not willing to do the work, he's not a good bet for the future.)

Is he doing the necessary work? (One set of indicators is how he treats you and himself. I suspect that all a BS needs is continuous improvement. If your life together is getting better, maybe your WS is doing the work.)

Do you want him even if he does increase self-love and drastically reduce self-hate (which is what low SE is IMO)?

I look for change for the better. Understanding why someone is a POS is no guarantee that the person will change her/himself.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 31199   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8408438
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