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I never ever look at my husbands phone as I trusted him totally nothing would have made me think that he would ever cheat on me, it just wouldn't happen but then it did happen.I was waiting for the kettle to boil and a message came up on my husbands phone form "S" saying yes to meeting in London on Tuesday on my husbands return to Kuwait where he has been working I thought what the hell so I looked at his phone what the hell "S" was a 26 year old who turned out has been having an affair for 3 years, she was 23 when it started and he was 48, they worked together and turns out I don't know him at all, she is 30 years younger than me and 25 years younger than him and all hell has let loose. I want a divorce but he wants to carry on as he never had any intention of leaving me for her so whats my problem?? He says he wants to stay with me and we did 6 counselling sessions which he hurried through and did two a week to get it over and done with and as far as he thinks its all over but I can't get her or it out of my head and I can't forgive him, I read every single text that they sent to each other and he has never been like that with me and its the texts that have hurt me more than anything and I really don't know what to do.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:36 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

You have a lot ahead of you. First, understand that “rug-sweeping” the affair will not work. You will be suspicious and resentful and he will think he got off lightly which will encourage him to cheat again and just be more careful.

So, to save your marriage he will have to BECOME a safe partner in fact, not just in words, by SHOWING you through his ACTIONS that he is truly honest and transparent.

This is going to be especially hard given that he travels for work. Can he find another job, at least for the next few year while he commits to change?

Will he go to IC on his own to probe why he thought this behavior was OK?

Will he give you access to phone and all social media?

Will he take a polygraph?

Get the book “How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair” by Linda MacDonald, which is a pithy, pointed primer on what he needs to do and how. You read it first, so you will know what to look for. Give him a short deadline to read it (it is short) and find out if he will do the work. HE has to take the lead in re-building, not you.

You have a hard road ahead and I wish you luck.

Hi Jude,

So sorry you are here. You'll get a lot of help here and support. You're among friends. The reason you are struggling is that your WH (Wayward Husband) is trying to get you to sweep this whole thing under the rug and you just can't do it. That's fine. You shouldn't be asked to do it.

Going to counseling together when something like this happens is a lot of people's go to response but it is really not appropriate. When you go to a marriage counselor they are there to "fix" the marriage. They want to get into things like communication skills and love languages. I'm sure you left those 6 sessions with some feeling that your WH's Affair was somehow your fault or some fault of the marriage. It was not. That is why marriage counseling is not appropriate.

Instead what is needed is for your WH to get to the root of why he did this to you and your marriage. And that why does not include anything related to you. He needs to find the moral failing in his character that would cause him to view this as acceptable behavior and he needs to work on fixing that and ensuring that you feel safe in your marriage at all times.

Do you have a complete picture of the timeline of this affair? Do you know how often they met, when they met, what they did, how much money he spent on it, who else knew about it, etc.? Have you seen their full communication? Do you know if they are still in contact? Has he become completely transparent with his location and electronic communications with you? These are the kinds of things he needs to be doing now.

Lastly I don't think he is remorseful. Wanting to get through the counseling as a check box rather than focusing on your healing is not a good sign. He is still taking for granted that you will stay with him. He needs a wake up call.

I'd start by asking yourself why you feel a need to forgive him.

I think people tend to put way too much pressure upon themselves to forgive, for a wide variety of reasons. It's taken me over four years to reach that point and to be perfectly honest I never gave it much consideration on my own. The only time I ever pondered, or explored, forgiveness was when I read threads on SI about it.

I really don't know what to do.

That's why most of us join SI, the greatest club that no one ever wanted to join. Welcome to the club.

Take some time a read the two threads "pinned" to the top of the Just Found Out forum: "The Tactical Primer" & "Newbies... Important Information-Please Read."

"The Healing Library" is another great place to start (you'll find a link in the yellow shaded area at the top-left of the page). Inside the "Articles" tab you'll find dozens of excellent essays written by veteran SI members.

I'd also recommend two great books by Dr. Janis Spring. "After the Affair," and "How Can I Forgive You."

Keep reading and posting, Jude63. I know you'll find some great support and guidance here.

I’m so sorry for you. I too had a 20+ year younger OW as his Affair interest. Single young and free. How do you compete with that when you are working, a mom, kids, a husband who travels and been married 25 years (at the time of the affair)?

And yes he was dumping me to be with the OW. Numerous times he said he wanted a D.

It doesn’t sound as though your H is doing anything more than the bare minimum to “stay married”. That’s not Reconciliation. But you already know that.

I don’t know how recently you learned of this affair but it took me years to forgive him. Truly forgive. I said it all along but I knew I really felt it years after DDay2.

He’s not doing anything to make you feel safe or loved or making amends? Not saying words - I mean ACTIONS like transparency, accountability and actions/things that show the Affair is over. Showing true remorse.

Welcome.

1. He has not earned forgiveness, and therefore you have no reason to forgive him, and even if he were remorseful, and really doing the real work of R, you can't just forgive. It doesn't work that way for many of us.

2. He is pressuring you into staying, by doing the minimum, and not showing in actions that he is really doing the hard stuff. Fixing his shit, and becoming the man you believed he was.

3. He needs to get into IC for himself. Not MC for you both.

You need to focus on you, your needs and your healing.

Infidelity is a huge trauma that takes years to recover from, there is NO quick fix. It is difficult at best to R with someone who has cheated, and does the real work from the get go, without a truly remorseful spouse, R is impossible, and you do not have a safe partner. In many cases it's just a matter of time before a repeat performance occurs and they cheat again.

Keep reading here, keep posting. We have walked this path before you, and while your situation is unique to you there are some universal truths that hold no matter what the situation is.

I'd start by asking yourself why you feel a need to forgive him.

I would take this a step further and say that you can both forgive him and leave him. This is completely acceptable if that is what you need for your own mental health. I have forgiven my xWW but was not able to stay married to her.

*hugs*

Has he ended the affair? Do you have it in you to reconcile if he does? He doesn't sound remorseful.

He says he wants to stay with me

What does Jude want?

You hold the cards here, honey. You can't control him, but you can control you. You do you.

he never had any intention of leaving me for her so whats my problem

Jesus H. Christ....they just don't get it, do they?

Take your time, Jude; you don't have to make any decisions now with regard to R or D. But I'll be damned if I'd let him in your bed with his dismissive attitude...he can sleep on the bloody couch!

Hugs,

Lala

Edited for typo

[This message edited by Lalagirl at 12:04 PM, October 1st (Tuesday)]

Some suggestions to help you feel more in control:

Go see a lawyer - so you know what your options are. You don't have to do anything but it gives you knowledge, and knowledge is powerful in these situations.

Does she work with the same company? If so, one of them has to go - you can tell their bosses or your wh can quit.

If she is married or with someone, tell them. They deserve to know. Does she know he is married? If not, inform her. You can also tell her family.

Tell everyone and anyone - it shines light on the affair and affairs are like cock roaches, they tend to flee when light shines on them. Plus, it does not allow him the chance to put his own spin on things and make you out to be the bad guy. It also helps hold them accountable.

Pull credit reports, pull your financials (both yours and his). It will show you where he has utilized marital funds to pay for his dates etc. Show the results to him in black and white. I personally made my FWH work OT to pay off his debt he incurred when he had his A.

Go see a doc, get tested for everything. Make him go too. Have HIM admit why you both need testing.

If you are in a state that allows for suing the AP for alienation of affection, do it. Might not net you much, but man it would be so in your face and all legal like.

Tell him you want to GPS his phone, car and you want 100% transparency on all social media, phone, emails etc.

If he cheated during work trips, go with him from now on. OR again, make him quit.

Some men don't want to give up the marriage, so he might be telling the truth there. They compartmentalize the two relationships. Not saying it is right, but it explains how he can say he never intended to leave you. Course, that doesn't mean you can't decide to divorce him.

Show him what he tends to lose if you do divorce - child support/visitation (if you have kids together), alimony - loss of the family home etc. Do it calmly too - that really bugs them.

If he had a car that he did things with her in it, sell it. Basically he has to do the heavy lifting to rebuild your trust in him and the relationship.

lastly, this is just for you too - take care of yourself. Eat healthy, try to get enough sleep, see a doc for medicinal help short term if you need it, exercise and find a hobby - it will help keep your mind occupied. Drink plenty of H20 - and remind yourself, HE is the one that did wrong, you are not in the wrong - you kept your vows. Give yourself time to figure out what you want - it has to be your timetable bc no one else can tell you how to get over the death of your marriage as you knew it. If it turns out you are unable to R with him - you have the info from the lawyer - plus you can always file for D and then stop it at any point. This is now your show...direct it how ya want!

Then lace up your bitch boots and tell him how it is going to be from now on. Don't rug sweep, don't allow him to gas light you - bc whatever he says - triple or quadruple it. expect TT, and expect him to take it undergrown.

JUDE: I am so sorry you are here, but I’m glad you found us. You will get a lot of good advice her, I know I did! Take what you need and leave the rest.

You asked about forgiveness. I think your question is thought provoking. I was told as a youngster that forgiveness included forgetting all about it, as if it never happened. When I grew up, I realized that I am incapable of doing that, especially since my WW (Wayward Wife) has committed adultery multiple times with multiple men. How the heck am I supposed to “forget” that!? Not only can I not forget what she has done, that would also be unwise. There is a famous saying, “Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it.” What, then, does “forgive” really mean?

Someone else shared with me that “forgive” means to “give up the right to bring up that subject anymore.” That seemed to make a lot more sense, but lately I have modified my definition of the word. To me, forgiveness is: “Giving up the right to bring up the subject for the purpose of perpetual bludgeoning.” You see, I’ll never forget what my WW has done to me. I would have just as much luck forgetting that as I would forgetting the day our triplets were born. That’s not going to happen! However, I do need to talk to my wife about what she’s done, and I don’t know how long I’m going to need to keep that door open.

I agree that you can forgive him and still Divorce him. “Forgetting” it will just be rug-sweeping, and that will only cause you and your Marriage harm.

He has not earned forgiveness, and therefore you have no reason to forgive him, and even if he were remorseful, and really doing the real work of R, you can't just forgive.

See how that fits in? Not only has he not asked for forgiveness, he hasn’t earned it. He hasn’t earned the right for you not to bring it up for beating him over the head with it. He has no idea (and perhaps not concern for) the depth of pain and trauma he has inflicted on you. For you to stand back and just take his abuse (And, yes, adultery/cheating is abuse, along with minimizing your pain, gaslighting, etc.) without fighting back and defending yourself is nothing less than martyrdom without cause. Sometimes you have to fight back with gloves off for your WS (Wayward Spouse) to get the message that you’re not going to just take it anymore. You don’t stop defending yourself until they stop throwing punches. ("You did x, which is why I cheated", "You need to get over it", "It's no big deal, it was just sex," etc.)

Eventually, you will have to forgive him, if not for your relationship’s sake then for your own mental health. To carry around a grudge or anger is damaging to you, mentally and physically. So what does that mean? You will have to get to a point where you close that chapter of your life and move on. The next chapter may or may not include him – you’ll just have to wait and see. But, you are not there, yet – not even close! Put that on your “to-do” list, but at the very bottom. You will get to that when you are ready, not when he wants it. And if he doesn’t think you’re “getting over it” quickly enough, remind him that he didn’t get your approval on when to meet with her, so you don’t need his approval on when to “get over it”! This would never have come up if he didn’t cheat – plain and simple!

Lastly, do what MamaDragon says. She is giving you good advice. And when you go to the store to get brand new bitch boots, make sure they are steel toed!

Just remember that here, you are not alone.

I am quoting Sisoon here, who is quoting M1965:

I think it was M1965 - wrote that one forgives the person, not the act. That solved the problem for me by reminding me to consider infidelity in the context of the whole person.

I thought that worth mentioning here.

Jude, are you sure he has ended the A? Do you have access to his phone, email, social media, etc.? Did he send the OW a NC letter?

He sure sounds like someone who is still cheating and rushing you along to forget about it. He doesn't sound sorry in the slightest. 3 years is a LONG time so unless you are 110% sure it's over, it's not over.

Never forgive

Ever.

He hasn’t been truthful.

You can’t move forward without knowing everything

Thank you all so much for your kind and thoughtful words. When I saw the message from the OW he was out getting the weekly shop and as soon as he walked in the door I confronted him, but just before that I had sent her a text asking how long she had been having an affair with my husband and she had sent one back saying that was not what was occurring and when he saw that he sent her a text saying that he had told me everything and that he could no longer have any contact with her as he wanted to save our marriage and she sent one back saying thank you for being a wonderful friend and she was there if he needed a shoulder to cry on. I don't think he has had any contact with her since. I then spent the next few nights reading every single text, she has a boyfriend who she started seeing at the same time as she was sleeping with my husband and has since gone on to open a cafe in St Leonards near Hastings UK and have two children with this guy within two years whilst having an affair with my husband, but they are not my husbands.She clearly has a thing for older men as her current guy is 20 years older. I am ashamed to say that I told the boyfriend everything as she had told my husband the name of the business that they had opened and I rang him, I try to tell myself that I did this because she lied to me when I confronted her but I think I was just being nasty and vengeful. My husbands attitude is that he can't change the past and we can just carry on as we were. He was due to go back to Kuwait a few days later but called his boss and said he wasn't going back as he needed to save his marriage, I guess his boss knew all about the affair as he wasn't surprised by it all.

You should not be ashamed for informing the OBS. It was the right thing to do. He has a right to know the truth about his life just as you do. Good for you.

DO NOT BE ASHAMED FOR TELLING THE OTHER SPOUSE.

That was a brave and good and right thing to do. It is totally unfair to not tell the other spouse, as he deserves to know and be informed so he can decide what he wants to do.

It sounds like maybe the fog is clearing a bit for your H, but I would check his phone for texting apps, including games that allow chats, I would also look for a burner phone, and put a VAR in his vehicle, as his actions are more of ok I will do whatever you say until things calm down, not Holy Shit I destroyed us and you and will do everything possible to make it right, no matter how hard or how long it takes.

The OBS (other betrayed spouse) needs to be told. Good for you.

I'm only going to provide my opinion about the topic of forgiveness. My WW was never going to leave me. She just was carrying on two separate lives. She told him she loved him once in response to his ILY. It was early in their adultery which was 4 years with lots of travel and sex.

Forgiving isn't for him, the WH. It is for the forgiver. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. You can forgive and divorce. You can forgive and have setbacks.

My first IC (a Christian counsellor) was pushing me to forgive. It wasn't a hard push - more like a suggestion. However, the more it came up the less likely I was to do it.

The Lord Jesus pleaded with God hanging on a cross to forgive those who turned on him and were crucifying him. That's not me. It was over 5 years after DDay1 when I forgave my WW. Even then it was a slow process. I lost a huge burden when I did it - a burden I didn't have to carry anymore.

So, my take is that it is for the forgivers good to forgive. It has to be done on the betrayed's schedule. It can't be rushed. It has to be genuine. There are relapses.

You are in for a long, painful journey no matter which path, R or D, you take. Don't rugsweep. It'll make things worse in the long run, IMO. From what you've written thus far I would suggest your WH isn't at a place conducive to attempt R. He might never be there.

I then spent the next few nights reading every single text, she has a boyfriend who she started seeing at the same time as she was sleeping with my husband and has since gone on to open a cafe in St Leonards near Hastings UK and have two children with this guy within two years whilst having an affair with my husband, but they are not my husbands.

How do you know this? Did OW's boyfriend do a DNA test?

My husbands attitude is that he can't change the past and we can just carry on as we were.

Oh, you mean where he gets to have a secret girlfriend? NO!

You can't carry on as you did. That's not possible for you. And you're worth more than being his fall back plan at home after he's done screwing around with OW. He's either all in or you are all out.

I am ashamed to say that I told the boyfriend everything... I try to tell myself that I did this because she lied to me when I confronted her but I think I was just being nasty and vengeful.

I told the OBS (other betrayed spouse) everything I knew and how I knew it all. I don't feel any shame at all. In fact, I'm quite certain that I did the right thing, for a whole bunch of good reasons.

My husbands attitude is that he can't change the past and we can just carry on as we were.

Feel free to encourage a change of attitude. If he really wants to save his marriage, carrying on as you were just isn't going to cut it.

Print this thread and give it to your WH (wayward husband) to read. Do NOT tell him where it came from.

"Things that every WS needs to know"

By HUFI-PUFI

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=324250

(or you can find it in the "Wayward Side" forum)

[This message edited by Unhinged at 7:53 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]