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“Sex is just sex.” My WW has said this to me and though I understand what is being said, I don’t understand how a Wayward can think that way. After all, if it’s no big deal, why keep doing it? And if it’s no big deal and your WW is having some OM’s baby, is it ok because she’s just procreating? That’s just a biological function of the female anatomy.

Instead, I think WW’s have this perspective of sex because either it more easily enables them to have sex with someone not their spouse (It’s just sex – no big deal!), or that becomes their perspective after a multitude of partners. Is any of that true?

It's a deflection. It's like a thief saying "stealing is just stealing." Which is sort of true, but not. For example, stealing money from your elderly mother is viewed by most as more heinous than stealing an apple from a grocery store. And stealing repeatedly from your spouse while lying is not just stealing, it's also betraying trust.

I will give you my WS perspective as I remember thinking this. I can only assume your WW feels the same way.

When you look back on the sex and the cheating, if you are out of the A and remorseful and "woke," you realize that none of it was special or worth it or unique or different or anything memorable at all. You really cannot even remember what you were thinking. It feels like, "It was nothing. It was just sex." I suppose what we really mean when we say this is, "It was nothing to me when I look back. It was not memorable or special or unique or anything I can even recall. It was basic. It was nondescript. It was just sex. I can hardly recall anything."

The emotion that a betrayed feels when they think about the sex is simply not anything like a WS thinks because the betrayed is bringing a host of personal emotions to the act. But without the fakery and the bling of fantasy and the ego boosting of the pretend, in the cold light of day, the whole event is exposed for what it really was--nothing. Just sex. To a BS that sex feels like anything but nothing, but a remorseful WS looks back on it like, "It was so uneventful and devoid of meaning that I can hardly remember."

After all,

1. We affair down.

2. It's about the ego boost, never the sex.

3. It's about our need to feel powerful, not about the AP being special.

So of course it was nothing. Because it was literally nothing to us, just something we did to feel like a rock star for a little while. Awful of us to do? Absolutely. But that does not change that it meant nothing. A means to an ego end.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:21 PM, October 4th (Friday)]

What owning it said.

Ws read a psychology article about deciding after dday and down to every point it just struck a chord and his words were "I'm just like every other cheater" he suddenly realised there were no special rules. His cheating wasnt any less because he had followed boundaries he set (like not taking time from his family which eventually he broke. Not spending money on it, which although it ws a shitty xmas gift he still broke it, not getting emotional which he had started to break a bit) but when peeled back it was all all a smokescreen for pretty shitty choices and empty return he cried that day he looked so broken. He wasnt remorseful yet he was starting to just see it. This was 4 days past dday so first time he pulled his head fully out his ass and immediately he said well that's it done will tell ow it's over. It was just as owning it said once he stepped out of it he could see it for what it was the article spoke about the fun and thrill but did he want to do it every day, and he didnt. Infact frequency had increased and instead of the escape and thrill he had before he had started to experience the weight of it he was a broken man when he confessed he just needed out of the deceit and position but didnt know how or why.

Few weeks later he was really angry with himself as he had to drive near where he had for affair and he himself came home and said wtf why did I go and drive and do that just for sex? Why did I go to such an effort for that? I think consequences and exposure changes what the worth or return is but also forces them to see what they had to do and give up to pursue it.

Not long after dday wh also broke down think when he realised what he had done affected how I viewed him and anything physical with him....wow imagine that.... and he stated very factually sex is just for fun when you're young stupid nothing to lose. When you find someone worh keeping its special and it should be kept special it shouldnt be threatened or given away. Sex between two people who love each other is amazing and I've smashed that. Yes my dear you have.

He had to see what he had lost vs what he had gained and while at the time.im sure it was enjoyable and thrilling it really was just sex. Nothing special nothing exciting nothing worth this mess. And in comparison what he lost was far more than sex. It was far more than what he ever could've gained.

So it's just sex to gain. But it's far more to risk and lose both for ws and bs. It is minimising in a sense but it is also showing comparably its nothing really in the light of day. Not its effect or fall out of course. If only they had the sense to realise this.

I've asked ws why he thinks he wont again. Hes inherently selfish. But that has changed. But his simply reply is I now know what the thrill looks and feels like but I also know what is actually out there and it's just not worth it. Hes under no illusion the same thing that attracted him to affair is still potentially eye grabbing the ego boost attention risk thrill etc. But once you get past that it's just bloody sex and not comparable to what he loses.

Pity we dont see it as just sex.

I think it was nothing to my WH, just a natural progression for the "high" he got from secrets more than anything else. Ego kibble AND orgasms all wrapped up in a "you're not the boss of me" bow.

I think when a WS says that (to themselves or their BS), it's a giant bucket of minimization. That can further fuck with the BS' reality in the immediate aftermath (eg why am I so devastated over "nothing" sex?) - before they become educated about the trauma response.

I believe BSes have a super hard time accepting that their WS viewed it so callously... that our spouses basically threw us under the bus for "nothing" or "nothing special" or caused us the most imaginable pain, for "just" an orgasm. Yet we sure as sh*t feel those tires rolling over our hearts.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 2:03 AM, October 5th, 2019 (Saturday)]

that our spouses basically threw us under the bus for "nothing" or "nothing special" or caused us the most imaginable pain, for "just" an orgasm.

What if they didn't even have an orgasm? Then what did they throw us under the bus for?

If you'd asked me this before I was married, I would have told you the same thing, sex is just sex. It really was "just sex" to me, it didn't mean anything beyond "I'd like to have sex with you". Didn't mean I liked you, respected you, wanted to see you again, or anything about the person I was doing it with. It was "just sex", but, at the same time, it was incredibly important to me. Just because it wasn't tied up in emotions, or didn't mean anything about the other person, didn't mean that it wasn't valuable or important. But extrapolating anything about my partner "He must like her/want to date her/etc" would be a grave mistake. It was just sex; the vast majority of time I spent having sex was with people where it was "just sex".

My WW has said this to me

Huh, didn't expect that one, this is almost always a male response to the A. I don't see many WW's say that, in fact, I can only remember 2 who've I can recall in years who said "it was just sex". Almost always, it wasn't sex, sex was just a way to keep the things they wanted from the the A coming. Perhaps others can come along that will help more with this particular aspect.

Instead, I think WW’s have this perspective of sex because either it more easily enables them to have sex with someone not their spouse (It’s just sex – no big deal!), or that becomes their perspective after a multitude of partners. Is any of that true?

Well, when I said it (or thought it), it wasn't to easily enable me to have sex with someone else. It's because that's how I felt, sex and emotions were not at all linked for me, as I said before, looking at sex as a guide to "how I felt" about someone (other than "attractive enough to have sex with") would have been terribly unreliable. My emotions and sex were entirely divorced, I loved a girl I never had sex with, and had sex with lots of women who I could barely stand (their personality).

that our spouses basically threw us under the bus for "nothing" or "nothing special" or caused us the most imaginable pain

It isn't that we got nothing; it is that the sex was a part of a larger drama that we needed as a bandaid on some hugely painful part of our soul, but it was not the end game. What we got was this fantasy high that we were wanted, important, and powerful. Serial cheaters need that high because their self-esteem is permanently low, while some cheaters go through a very empty time in their lives and choose selfishly only then.

I once heard an author speaking about gun violence say, "People who join street gangs are not motivated by homicidal tendencies, although that's the outcome. They are motivated by suicidal tendencies, the belief that they can't survive, can't make it. It's themselves they have given up on, not others." It's exactly like that for many us who fully knew cheating was wrong but did it anyway. Somebody saying I was awesome when I felt anything but was an emotional drug, and I didn't care if I died of an overdose. So the sex? It was not special and neither was the person. I just wanted someone to make me feel that I really mattered.

So strange to me....being with someone I didn't love or know for a long time would be like eating some food I think is gross. I couldn't make myself eat it. I see beautiful people but they don't bring up those thoughts or feelings.

The connection is everything to me.

It took a long time to understand my WS infidelity. It's just sex to him.

But here is the thing.....maybe I was just sex too in his mind. So what's the difference anymore if you are having this one or that one? Flavor of the day and only the exotic one is memorable.

Why desire your partner at all after that?

maybe I was just sex too in his mind.

I'm going to entirely speak for myself here, but, hopefully this helps.

You weren't. He married you. The secret to figuring this out is to look outside of sex. IMHO, it was blatantly obvious, or should have been, to most girls I dated that it was a "just sex" relationship. I did lots of things that made that obvious, most notably, refusing to be exclusive. But I'd also decline invites to family functions, to be around her with her friends, or basically, anything that would have involved us spending time together without the possibility of sex. Sound familiar? Well, to me it does, I just described my W's A perfectly, if there was no chance for sex, he wasn't going to meet up. No surprise at all, it was just sex to him, if she wasn't "putting out" he wasn't going to take the risk to see her. Neither would I, why deal with that drama and not get anything for it?

Anyone asking this question, look at the other evidence. And if you're married, you have STRONG evidence that says "It's not just sex". Now, if you were just dating this guy, he was blowing you off, and then you wound up here telling the story of him cheating on you, I'd tell you the opposite, you're probably "just sex" to him. But anyone married, there's more to it. Speaking personally, no godd*mn way I'm getting married to a "just sex" partner. A lot more has to come to the table to make me consider that, personality, interests, humor, attractiveness, family/FOO. Tons of considerations, of which, I'd give exactly 0 f**ks about any of for an affair, or a just sex relationship.

Just because someone is capable of a "just sex" relationship does not mean that all sex for them is "just sex". I speak of this for myself, but I suspect this applies pretty broadly, I CAN totally compartmentalize sex, in fact, I spent most of my life doing just that, but I don't ONLY know how to compartmentalize sex, it can mean more to me, and does, with my W.

I'm fond of food analogies because I feel they closely mimic sex in a lot of ways and I think they are relatable to a lot of people. I can enjoy fast food when I'm hungry. But it's "just food", I'm just eating because I'm hungry and it's there. It doesn't imply anything about the place I got the food or the person who served it to me. It might even really enjoy the food, it still doesn't mean I care a hoot about the chef or waitress. I also enjoy my wife's cooking immensely, she's an excellent cook and makes food I really enjoy. But, when I eat her food, it's more an expression of how she feels about me, she took the time to cook something she knows I really like. I can enjoy the food and know that the person who made it for me loves me, and I love her. But it's not because of the food, it's because of the "other things" that I feel that way.

People who join street gangs are not motivated by homicidal tendencies, although that's the outcome.

Some, for sure, this is true. And some are socio/psychopaths who join a street gang specifically for the chance to get involved in the violence. One is perhaps redeemable, the other less so, if not a street gang, they will still be acting out their psychopathic tendencies elsewhere. They don't "fit in to the gang" and accept it's norms, they make the norms. So, relating this to A's, some people are motivated not by the "need to fit in", they are motivated by the other aspects of the gang. Not that one is better than the other (in affairs, in gangs, obviously, the born killer is probably worse than the situational killer), but they both exist.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:48 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]

“Sex is just sex.”

If it were so simple, then does that mean the BS can go out and have sex with someone else anytime they wanted?

”Hi, honey, guess what? I just had sex with a co-worker today to celebrate the successful completion of a project!”

Somehow, I don’t think be WS would be very receptive of that....

RIO,

Some of us are divorced. In my case, the whole damn marriage was "just."

rideitout,

WW put out to keep the meeting her

emotional needs, regardless how good or bad was the

sex. it was just sex.

WW regardless of how good the sex was tell their

BH that it was just sex, everybody enjoys sex as a

damage control statement to prevent them inflicting

more pain on their BH

I don't remember where I found this, maybe here somewhere, or on the web, but it's a good read:

It’s Just Sex…

I definitely understand that betrayal is much more than just sex. In our EMS Online class we were asked to define what betrayal meant to us. My answer? Betrayal is giving to someone other than your spouse what should only be shared between the two of you. In their FAQ’s about infidelity, Affair Recovery defines an affair as “a betrayal of the marital relationship, for it violates the covenant that two people made.”

During our first week of EMS Online, we learned that Infidelity, as Frank Pittman, MD (one of the leading authorities in the field of infidelity and the author of Private Lies) says, is nothing more than the keeping of secrets. In my mind betrayal is sharing intimacy with someone other than your spouse. That intimacy is sex, yes, but oh so much more. Its desire, emotions, touch, laughter, tears, and whatever else should be reserved for your spouse but is given to another.

Betrayal is giving a part of yourself to someone who has not promised to love, honor and cherish you till death do us part.

Betrayal is sharing of secrets with someone other than your spouse. It’s giving your intimate thoughts to another. It’s handing an outsider marital and personal information they have no business knowing.

Betrayal is sexting even if there is never any face-to-face contact.

Betrayal is flirting with someone other than your spouse.

Betrayal is pornography, spending time with images instead of your spouse.

Betrayal is speaking negatively about your spouse to justify your behavior.

Betrayal is lies, deceit, sneaking around and knowingly hiding your behavior.

Betrayal is taking time away from your spouse and kids and giving it to strangers.

Betrayal is selfishness so intense that consequences do not matter.

Betrayal is lack of respect not only for your spouse but for yourself and your marriage.

Betrayal is catastrophic to the betrayed on so many levels and in so many ways.

Betrayal is knowing that your spouse dishonored you and your marriage by choosing intimacy with someone else over you.

Betrayal is all of the above and so much more. To the betrayed spouse betrayal is anything that disrupts the marital intimacy and breaks the marital vows. The unfaithful is definitely aware that their actions are wrong because no matter how much they justify their misdeeds in their minds they keep them secret from their spouse. Their pride and selfishness impel their actions. Their shame and guilt keep them silent.

Betrayal is so much more than just sex.

Edit to add:

"It's Just Sex" rates right up there with "I made a mistake" After being caught in their year long affair. Minimization at it's best. This is one of the biggest indicators that they don't "Get it".

[This message edited by kickedintheknads at 12:53 PM, October 5th (Saturday)]

I was talking to an old friend of mine once and he said it's so peculiar that people go through all of the lies and planning and risk to their marriage "for a few seconds of a spasm". It certainly doesn't sound worth it when you put it like that.

Sex can be just sex, but it doesn't have to be. It's all about the people involved and what they want it to be.

I'm in an open relationship now- we can have other casual sexual partners or actual romantic relationships. If I just have sex with a friend or feel like having a one night stand, then yeah- it's just sex. We use protection, have a little fun, and go our separate ways. It's not intimate or emotional or bonding in any way.

I've even had sex that's purely recreational with my husband. But sex can also be deeply intimate and connective, and that's NOT just sex.

Either way, I find the comment irrelevant. If a WP's philosophy is that it's just sex and no big deal, then why didn't they try to negotiate an open relationship? Clearly, because they knew it was in fact a big deal to the BS. Big deal or not- being open, honest, and ethical is paramount in a marriage or LTR.

There's a thread in Reconciliation discussing this, too.

When you look back on the sex and the cheating, if you are out of the A and remorseful and "woke," you realize that none of it was special or worth it or unique or different or anything memorable at all. You really cannot even remember what you were thinking. It feels like, "It was nothing. It was just sex." I suppose what we really mean when we say this is, "It was nothing to me when I look back. It was not memorable or special or unique or anything I can even recall. It was basic. It was nondescript. It was just sex. I can hardly recall anything."

Reminds me of one of my favorite all time performances from an actor: Raul Julia in Street Fighter. For you, the day M. Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

That day that destroyed your life? That's haunted your nightmares for years and reduced you to an anxious, damaged, depressed, shell of yourself?

Barely even recall it, It was just Tuesday.

Going back to OIN's quote:

it is that the sex was a part of a larger drama that we needed as a bandaid on some hugely painful part of our soul, but it was not the end game. What we got was this fantasy high that we were wanted, important, and powerful.

I guess what also matters is how much 'better' the sex was while in the fantasy high. Sure, after the affair balloon is deflated, everything looks different, but what were those feelings/sex like while the affair was active?

They are motivated by suicidal tendencies, the belief that they can't survive, can't make it. It's themselves they have given up on, not others." It's exactly like that for many us who fully knew cheating was wrong but did it anyway.

I can echo this. When I had my RA I had given up on myself. I was upset by catching my STBX groping and rubbing upon his co-worker on my birthday night. I felt like I died. Then I was mad and went right down the slippery slope as soon as my co-worker paid me ANY attention. I jumped right out of the fire and into the frying pan. It did hurt my WS what I did I saw his pain and despair and I felt horrible because I knew that same feeling. Affairs are committed by people who aren't healthy. I was not healthy. My STBX was not healthy.

Sex isn't just sex when it's destructive to others and to the self

but what were those feelings/sex like while the affair was active?

No clue. All I know is what I know now. All I am is who I am now. Trying to access what I thought during this messed up, foggy, painful time is like trying to remember how I felt about something when I was seven years-old. It requires me to guess or suppose because I am not that person anymore.