SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

BS here.

I would like start out by saying that I beg forgiveness for anyone that I offend by my post.

I have not posted my story yet and have been lurking - hopefully I'll take the plunge soon because I realize I need help - a LOT of emotions to work through. But I ran across an old post regarding a WS expressing how attractive their BS is and the AP was not or was less so and it really triggered me.

As a BS, I find that my natural response to ANY WS statement of "I love BS more than ever" or "I always found BS more attractive" or "I didn't find the AP attractive" or "I did not love the AP" is to take it with grains of salt.

To my BS mind, of course my FWW says that NOW - but it was obviously not what FWW actually felt while in the fog of the affair. She definitely felt the AP was better in some way. But, there were ramifications to the affair continuing. The FWW has a "practical" comfort zone and decided that the AP was not worth losing the comfort zone. Perhaps FWW didn't get what she wanted out of the affair (commitment from AP or the desired ego boost or realized AP has too many issues to continue with). During the affair, the relationship with the AP was some level of sex/emotion/intimacy, while I was about practicality (habits of life, house, bills, reputation, kids, etc...).

No matter WHAT realizations come forth with regard to "Whys" for the affair, the BS is going to be Plan B/C/D forever. Sorry, once Plan B, always Plan B. You only become Plan A because the real Plan A didn't work out (even if the affair was a pipe dream, just an escape, unrealistic, whatever..). The BS is now Plan A only by virtue of relabeling, not reality. Saying otherwise is just a play on words.

I am coming to the realization that nothing my FWW says or does will ever change this. The WS has to convince the BS that, now that they've settled for BS, they won't hurt BS again and WS will pretend that they wanted BS or something they provide all along. And at some point, the BS just has to take it on faith and get over themselves.

To me, that is the reality of reconciliation for a BS. Am I willing to be Plan B forever, because that's what I'm always going to be regardless of what was said or done after the affair to reconcile. FWW might appreciate me NOW (maybe!), but only because FWW's plans fell through.

This is an easier choice to make when I realize that technically, the AP was a Plan B as well. We are always going to be Plan B in just about every new relationship we have as adults - every single person is settling for other than their dreams with each subsequent relationship. You're only there because what came before for your partner failed and vice versa. In other words - welcome to LIFE.

I suppose all of this is to ask ... do I just have to find the strength to let it go and just appreciate/accept what I have with FWW post-affair? Saying BS is attractive is just an ego booster and ultimately of diminished value as BS is Plan B anyway...is that enough for the BS in the long run? (assuming that both BS and WS work through their issues and trust is established!). 80/20 rule?

WS's.... please respond and let me have it if I'm wrong in my assumptions - I know I painted with a broad brush and there a subtleties to every affair and marriage. Part of what I'm saying is just venting my own pent up emotions.

BS's I don't mean to speak for everyone, so feel free to chime in with any feedback.

I'm just very triggered at the moment.

I appreciate bluntness - FLAME SUIT ON!

I suppose all of this is to ask ... do I just have to find the strength to let it go and just appreciate/accept what I have with FWW post-affair?

Is your FWW making the post-A marriage worth the effort of getting over it? Or is she expecting you to do all the work of getting over it while everything goes back to the same status quo from before the A? You can work with the former. Why would you want to work with the latter?

The responsibility is not on you to trust her. Trust is earned. Every time you snoop and don't find anything, that's a deposit in the trust bucket. Every time she's honest and upfront with you, that's a deposit in the trust bucket. Every time she's vulnerable with you, that's another deposit. If she lies, TT, or withholds info, the trust bucket gets dumped out entirely. If you don't have the truth from her, that's a hole in the bucket and doesn't get fixed until she fixes it. Trust can come back but it will depend on what she's doing.

Thanks for the reply nekonamida.

Regarding work being done to reestablish trust, I'll have to post my story (pending).

But for this post, my FWW can fawn on me and do everything I ask and more, but I'll always get triggered regardless of trust and reconciliation, I think, until I just get over it...

That really bothers me...the memory returning to sour my mood. BTW not looking to leave the M at this point (affair was so long ago...)

To me, that is the reality of reconciliation for a BS.

Disclaimer: I never had a chance at reconciliation. Have not experienced it. Would have given anything to have that chance back when I was in the middle of my infidelity situation.

But I've been around here for a while. I can tell you in all honesty that what you have outlined here, and all the Plan B stuff, is not the reality of reconciliation for *all* BS.

I'd be a liar if I said that you weren't pretty right, though, for a lot of them. Probably even a majority, I'd say. Many BS really just can't make it there in the end. Understandably.

There are a few things that are a little off with your thinking here.

And at some point, the BS just has to take it on faith and get over themselves.

I mean kind of. But it's not *blind* faith. That's just a kind of rug-sweeping. The WS has to prove themselves over and over and over for a LONG time. Then the BS can have something approaching real faith in them.

If you've been lurking, then maybe you've come across the notion that it takes 2-5 years to heal and/or reconcile. It's a long time.

We are always going to be Plan B in just about every new relationship we have as adults - every single person is settling for other than their dreams with each subsequent relationship. You're only there because what came before for your partner failed and vice versa.

I don't think so. I definitely have never felt that my subsequent partners were some kind of "settling" and that the woman of my dreams was actually the last person I was just with. Not how it works. Every subsequent relationship (for me) has been better than the last.

I say that only to point out this: most healed, fully-reconciled people here claim that what they build post-affair with their spouse is actually a brand-new relationship. And in many ways, with a brand-new person. Many say it's much better in the end, if they can really get there. Something to think about.

I suppose all of this is to ask ... do I just have to find the strength to let it go and just appreciate/accept what I have with FWW post-affair?

It's a project. Lots of work. For both of you. But yeah, in the end, on some level, if you're going to reconcile, you have to find the strength, and yeah, you'll have to appreciate and accept what you have post-affair. It will take time, if you get there at all. You DON'T have to "let it go." It will always be a thing.

~

I'm not sugarcoating this for you, and I don't mean to give the impression at all that this is easy or even possible. I really do believe that it's a small percentage of couples who truly reconcile in the end. A larger percentage of those couples remain "together," but many of those scenarios are not good.

Looking forward to reading your story eventually. You're among friends here.

You are absolutely correct. We all know that they Affair Down.

WH didn’t fuck another woman because he didn’t Love me any less or find me less beautiful, less sexy, less intelligent, less interesting, less attractive than before the A. So he says.

The AP by his own admission was rather ugly and dull.

In fact she is the opposite of me. He calls me his gorgeous natural beauty. AP was plastic and fake all over. Even the gushing words that came out of her mouth were all fake!

He’s absolutely proud of me and proud to be with me.

He would never have been seen in public with her, except at gym. He was embarrassed by the dresses she wore in public. He went so far as to say she looked like a man in a dress.

MY WH is an egotistical narcissist. He respects No One.

by WH account, when AP questioned why he wouldn’t leave me for her, he replied with brutal honesty.

He told her that he could never love her. What he saw in her was just a temporary Fuck Buddy, to get back at his wife.

By this stage AP had fallen in love with The very fake him

So WH Was always conflicted. The AP had to constantly stroke his ego to keep him going back for more.

All every stage during the affair my WH was trying to force himself to be less attracted to me.

I have honestly told him that I would never ever get involved with a man like him and had I met him for the first time since our separation, wouldn’t give him even the slightest glance.

It’s not his looks. His personality is very very unattractive 🙏🏼

LO,

I would guess my W found me more useful for practical reasons as well, also possibly because she didn't have to worry about getting STDs from me.

There is however an intensity of attraction in an affair which burns like a fire. Except for the hysterical bonding time, which is driven by fear not attraction, most BSs never get that in their lives if they stay with WS.

Oscar Wilde in his novel the picture of Dorian Gray put it this way, I'll paraphrase "having loved you she will never be happy with someone of her own class......and she will be wretched"

I will say that when I rugswept the affair and thought I could make her love me by my loving her, it helped make her affair a romantic memory of a golden time in her life. So how the affair was dealt with back then does have an effect on recovery.

I can comment on the narrow area of the attraction if that helps - I think sometimes a WS will have the situation you describe of plan a versus b, but I think mostly it is just the WS is plan A and they want to eat cake, all others come second during the A as it isn’t about you or the OM ultimately, it is about her selfishness.

I find my H more attractive than the guy I almost had an affair with. I never wanted to lose my H - not because of security but because I love him and am attracted to him and we have a great life and dynamic together. I can truly say I do not want to go back to that place and am glad I came here and never took it “there.”

[This message edited by Justsomelady at 9:39 PM, June 17th (Wednesday)]

Cheaters are often terrible long term planners. Their plan A is to fuck their AP and stay married to you in perpetuity. Plan B is self protection mode seat of the pants whatever minimizes damage. Maybe that's you, maybe that's the AP. Maybe it's them having false R then back to plan A.

I am the ws.

I am going to share my feelings about it. They are my own and really not a rebuttal to what you are saying. In fact, after dday there was part of me that knew no matter what I said or did for whatever period of time would be called into question or seem invalid after what I had done.

It’s terribly hard for a bs to understand that the action of having an affair is not exactly like dating or meeting someone legitimately. I mean, you know it at the surface, but the feelings of it and what is happening is built upon things that are entirely different.

First, you have a life with someone, usually a sex life, and for me both of those things had been a good and positive experience. You aren’t really looking for someone to do that with you are looking more narrowly at some perceived need that isn’t being filled and it’s usually unexpressed and unrealistic.

My issues were very much my own. I could describe that in great detail, but for the sake of getting through let’s just say that I had been a people pleaser who did more and more to be loved to the point I exhausted myself and resented how hard it was. I hated my life because I didn’t take care of myself or act authentically. I basically stuffed my feelings for so long.

That wasn’t my husbands fault. He didn’t even know.

So often when the affairs happen people are in their lowest spots. Who do they find to have an affair with? Other people who are also in low spots. They don’t have a pick of the litter here- and it doesn’t matter. Affairs are usually about being able to pretend to yourself that you are someone you are not. The affair partner is nothing but a shiny mirror to look into to reflect that image back to them. Also making ourselves believe we are so very special that Someone is choosing us over their mate (Even though they aren’t by a long shot), and only someone so special can be part of something so special. It’s fantasyland. Self-adulation. You can do that with virtually anyone willing to pretend that with you- there is nothing special at all about that.

So often when you see the person someone has an affair with, not always but more often than not, the AP is more than a few steps down from the bs. If not appearance wise (still usually is) but definitely character wise and many other personal traits. The reason it doesn’t matter is because that’s not what the person is seeking.

Oh I was young, vibrant, sexy, interesting, funny, charming, carefree. Guess what? I am really not any igf those things. Affairs are not based in reality. They are based on lies. Lies we tell the ap, lies we tell the bs, and lies we tell ourselves. We revert to teenagers and act ridiculous. It’s disgusting.

I was a disgusting piece of shit being ogled and ogling another disgusting piece of shit.

But I wasn’t always a disgusting piece of shit. And I don’t have to stay that way forever.

My husband decided to try and reconcile with me because he knew I wasn’t always that person. I had been a really good wife for decades. He felt hopeful I could be that to him again. In turn, I spent the next three years doing nothing but working in myself and trying to make amends towards him and rebuild a marriage we both want. He doesn’t owe me anything. He could still decide to divorce me and I would always understand no matter how long that would be after dday that I was the one who broke it.

I believe as time went along I have earned some of it back. In some ways we are closer than we have been our entire marriage. We both hate how we got here but we don’t hate being here.

Reconciliation is a personal choice and it’s not for everyone. It’s okay if it’s not for you. No one should flame you for that. But those of us trying I think we do have to believe that people can get better and they can change. My h isn’t my plan b. I can support myself, as can he. Our kids are grown. We are both able to go out and find other loves and lives if one of us chooses to do so. We choose each other today, and we do that again tomorrow. And to be truly honest, thank god I didn’t end up with my affair partner, that would have been the worst decision of my life. I would have made it based on how he helped make me feel while I played pretend, rather than how I really felt about him. I didn’t see him at all, just what was in the shiny mirror, I was his mirror and he didn’t see me either. He was a serial cheating philanderer who would have never stopped that lifestyle for me. I will add that I was several steps down from his wife in a lot of ways as well.

I will take the man who really sees me warts and all and still chooses me. And I see him and feel true feelings for who he is and not just what he makes me feel. He is a faithful and good man. That will never be my plan b. I will gladly spend the rest of my life showing him he is my only plan if he allows me to.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:24 PM, June 17th (Wednesday)]

She definitely felt the AP was better in some way.

I believe that we all process life through the filters of our experiences, but the feeling that an AP was "better" is not coming from a place of fact but rather interpretation. For example, she kept her relationship with you, so one could also interpret that she test drove someone else and found him to be inferior to you. It's all in the way we process information. IC has been an invaluable source of help in getting me to reframe many murky, gray, damaging beliefs about myself, and that process changed the trajectory of my life.

Consider that your current beliefs are your feelings and thoughts based on today's filter. They are not facts. Many actions, life events, and experiences can show a BS that they are indeed not Plan B. It seems to me that you are going to need to confront your strongly held beliefs that there is nothing your WW can do, nothing you two can experience, no epiphany you can have that will change the hurtful view of your situation. Never say never, ya know? Our beliefs change all the time. Do you understand that?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:30 PM, June 17th (Wednesday)]

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

I will preface again - please forgive me if I offend or seem aggressive - I am simply trying to pinpoint what I am missing for my own sanity.

For my purpose here, let me replace the term BS with "sacred bond between two people" (from here referred to as BOND). The BOND is many things to me - respect, love, trust, intimacy, mercy, ability to give constructive criticism, humility toward one's partner, life plans, support for each other's growth, growing a family, emotional support, working hard to provide a stable life, etc...

Instead of returning to that BOND and nurturing it to deal with her issues, or to at least say that she was breaking that BOND and moving on, FWW decided that a relationship with AP was the way to deal with it.

When FWW had her affair, the affair was Plan A to either deal with or escape her issues. The BOND was placed on the back burner. By default, Plan B.

To say it was just selfishness, that wasn't about sex, or it wasn't about the BS are phrases that make me feel like minimization of the fact that the BOND was denigrated and nearly burned away.

To me what I'm saying vs what some of the wonderful support crew at SI are saying, almost seems a case of "Potato - PotAhto"... word and mind games to assuage guilt or to build up the BS's trust and ego again. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. By doing so, the WS is trying their darndest to reintroduce mercy and love and humility and support from their side of things into the BOND.

But my mind tells me that I and FWW can't retroactively go back and say "The BOND remained Plan A." How could it? The affair HAPPENED. That doesn't just stop being the case because FWW says the BOND is Plan A now. That is rewriting history and to me seems intellectually dishonest.

Please note - I am not saying WS does not legitimately love BS during R. I am not saying WS does not in hindsight see how wonderful BS really is. I am not saying WS is a bad person or cannot grow.

What is getting me is the very idea that the BOND that I honored, the FWW that I cherished... meant nothing to her as she engaged in her selfish short sighted behavior. No matter what has happened since the affair ended, she stepped out on the BOND and I was given a back seat while she allowed someone else to be in the driver seat. That will never change no matter how much she comes to love me nor how matter how much trust she rebuilds.

And that is what is nagging me. I just have to get over it at some point after she puts in enough work. Otherwise, why even R, right?

Is it just my ego getting in the way at this point?

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 12:13 AM, June 18th (Thursday)]

LO20,

*A betrayed here, and will qualify that I have never experienced R, as I dropped my cheating fiancee PDQ, as I have little patience/tolerance for infidelity.*

Just to throw in an alternate way to think of the dynamics. Instead of the issue as a 2 component problem, look at it as a 3 component problem.

- First component (Plan A) is the WS themselves.

- Second and Third components are the BS and AP (placement does not matter)

So, the WS Plan A has always been Plan A (i.e. themselves). They held 'true' to it.

Then comes the BS and the AP. It really did not matter much to the WS, as the WS considered both to be interchangeable, as they are not a 'core' requirement for Plan A to work. The BS or the AP were never Plan A.

So, all this debate about who was always Plan A is semantics. Plan A was always, and will always be, the WS.

The question now would be, who is/was Plan B?

RocketRaccoon / Justsomelady / others

I see what you mean about WS being Plan A.

So...this means that I (or our BOND) was Plan C behind FWW and AP...?

Same question applies though, doesn't it? At some point, our BOND was less of a priority than the AP.

I can live with FWW putting herself ahead of our BOND from time to time - it is just being human. But the AP ahead of me, even though it has been over for a long time and she has made some efforts...feels like thick peanut butter stuck on my palette. Maybe I'm just quibbling over pointless details now.

I don't know...I think I see what everyone is saying, but my brain is just stuck. I have probably buried this for so long that my thoughts are all jumbled and I need to examine them again.

I think I need to take a melatonin tablet and go to sleep and dream and see if I can get this buzzing/nagging feeling out of my head.

At some point, our BOND was less of a priority than the AP.

Yup, because nothing else mattered except for Plan A.

...feels like thick peanut butter stuck on my palette.

At least peanut butter tastes good.... but I know what you mean.

Maybe I'm just quibbling over pointless details now.

The mental turmoil you have, is natural. 'How could they?' is a standard question BS ask themselves, and will drive BS crazy because it will not make sense. Sorry to break it to you, but it will never make 100% sense, unless you are/were a MH.

The WS mode of thinking is very alien to BS.

LO, what I've observed here is that the details matter. There are many different "types" of affairs. We call some "exit affairs", for example, or "cake eating". But even those broad descriptors fail to capture the nuance and inter-spousal dynamics of any individual A.

At the risk of generalization, broadly speaking, some affairs arise because the WW feels a sense that the marriage is over, or dying. The WW craves affirmation that she perceives she is not receiving from the marriage. In those types of affairs, it's probably not even possible to "rank" the degree to which the WW is attracted to the AP versus the BH. They're different.

Some affairs arise because the WW feels like she simply wants something more than what she is getting from the marriage, or different. In those types of affairs, I think it is accurate to say that she is more attracted to what she is getting from the totality of the circumstances with the AP than what she is getting from the marriage with the BH. Here, the details start to matter. Was the AP younger/fitter/more muscular/better hung? Or was there simply a thrill involving illicit new sex? Or was it some admixture of those kinds of thrills? Also, was she sexually ignoring or even denying the BH during the A? As I said, details matter.

I understand that, for a BH in a circumstance like that, a WW who starts to fawn over the BH suddenly after Dday feels like a liar, just as much as she was a liar when she was denying the BH sex while fucking the AP.

My own personal case was odd because, leading up to the A, we had a highly sexual relationship. Then, sex dwindled to a trickle and she began to put me off, doing things like not coming to bed until after I was asleep, etc. Clearly avoiding sex.

I never had an opportunity for R because on my Dday she told me she was leaving me for the AP, so I gathered myself together over a month or two and moved out. I did meet the AP on several occasions and he was nothing special physically. Her relationship with the AP didn't last very long, maybe a year or so. He was an opportunist who enjoyed the NSA sex, but wasn't there for any committed relationship.

Lost,

I am also a betrayed spouse who feels that my WH found the AP’s more attractive etc. And as much as IC and support from the forum help build personal confidence, this will always be a thought in my mind.

The way I am attempting to consider the issues of A, B and C are as follows:

Yes - whilst in the affairs my WH liked, loved, found more attractive or compelling the AP’s. He wanted them for reasons I am still in the dark about, and those reasons made them more important than me and our relationship.

As such our marriage was over as soon as he first decided to approach the OW. This is my reality.

However, following Dday my WH awoke from the fog just enough to consider the pros and cons of his actions. Given the OW (this time) was also married and the fact that we have a comfortable home and lifestyle. He chose to keep himself comfortable and stay in the marriage.

However, this is not the original marriage, it is a new relationship as we have both been changed irrevocably by his actions.

The situation now is that WH has to spend as much effort as possible to help create a new and improved marriage/relationship that you are both willing to live in.

Unfortunately due to the human memory the creation of a new relationship is hindered by the triggering of the affair.

For us both to move on, we have to overcome obstacles . For me this is attempting to forgive, but not forget that I was the second choice.

For him the obstacle is that I remember being the second choice and will never tolerate that again, with regards to Other women, work or anything.

I hope this helps

Lost, I understand what you mean and I agree.

WS can SAY "i didn't love AP" or "BS is more attractive" blah, blah, blah. However, WS's ACTIONS said something else. AND BS FEELINGS are relevant. And if BS feels that WS acted in a way that showed AP was more important, that is how they feel and words aren't going to change that.

hikingout, that's a really beautiful post. Thanks for sharing all that.

words aren't going to change that.

Nope. But what will?

1. Attention from WS

2. Consistent caring from WS

3. Effort from WS

4. A WS answering all questions

5. A WS willingly tolerating discomfort

6. A WS who is not caught in any more lies

7. A responsive WS

8. An engaged WS

9. A passionate WS

10. A WS who offers transparency

11. A WS who offers accountability

12. A WS who shows empathy

13. A WS who shows support during triggers

14. A WS who prioritizes the BS

15. A WS who sticks with this over time

This is a very TALL list and most WS would struggle to meet perfection. However, seeing and feeling all of this helps replace the old hurtful truths with new truths. The honesty of consistent action over time is almost impossible for the heart and mind to deny.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:16 AM, June 18th (Thursday)]

I am not the BS, so I don't want to wade in waters that are above my head.

However, some of what you describe sounds like you are stuck in a loop. THAT I have experience with. Lots of times we struggle to let go of something and it just digs in deeper. For those of us who can get into overthinking or obsessive thoughts, it can be hell.

I read a book called "The Power Of Now" by Eckhardt Tolle. One of the things that enlightened me about the human struggle is that often times we can not accept what it is we are feeling. When we try to force ourselves to feel differently, or our feelings feel like an obstacle it's our lack of acceptance that causes pain.

I am not saying accept what your WW has served up. I am saying, accept that's how you feel. Don't try and talk yourself out of it. Accept it as if you are choosing it.

Sometimes as well the blockage can be placed there for our own protection. Your wife traumatized you. You do not feel safe so you possibly keeping barriers up to keep yourself from being vulnerable to her. Whether it's because nothing has changed and she has done nothing to make herself any safer than at the time she cheated, or whether it's just there from the initial trauma, I can't say. It's natural not to want to let our guard completely down with the person who decimated our heart. Give yourself time.

Sometimes these feelings can be exacerbated by feeling like we need to make a decision now. Do you feel pressure for that?

We can't logic our way out of these ways we feel. Having more than one way of feeling and thinking creates a lot of cognitive dissonance about the situation and it creates more discomfort.

For my purpose here, let me replace the term BS with "sacred bond between two people" (from here referred to as BOND). The BOND is many things to me - respect, love, trust, intimacy, mercy, ability to give constructive criticism, humility toward one's partner, life plans, support for each other's growth, growing a family, emotional support, working hard to provide a stable life, etc...

See to me this was a big gear switch. Your initial post seemed more to me like the personal attack towards you. Switching it to the marriage makes it more universal to more than just infidelity.

Under this scenario, it opens up a different way to look at it. What if she had been an alcholic or a drug addict? She would have been putting THE BOND of far less importance than her sober self, right? The BOND might have slipped to plan B, C, D, Z, whatever because she would really maybe be using it so her life didn't fall apart altogether.

When you look at it on that level, the betrayal is a little less personal towards you. You would fully understand that she was broken in some way that had nothing to do with you. While you would still be devastated at the position it would be putting you in, you would not think it was because you were less attractive, or that you failed her in some intimate way.

When we are sick or broken or struggling, we all cope differently. Some people will succumb to alcoholism or drugs. The WW tried to escape and prop herself up with other people. She probably has a pattern of trying to even prop herself up with you.

She doesn't love herself, she doesn't know how to make herself happy, so we tend to set ourselves up with different forms of object based love. People who love and respect themselves will instead have a fountain of love inside of them and they will have that to give and actively love someone else. Someone who doesn't have that will always be looking to others to fill their fountain for them.

I don't know if looking at it differently can help you understand that I am saying that during the affair, or the drinking or the drugs - it did make other things plan B, or Z or however you want to look at it. What you are saying is real. But, the position of A, or being the only plan is just as real because as OIN said, people are always changing and evolving. If your wife can consistently provide some of what OIN is saying it may help you to heal.

It may not. And, you are not the bad guy if you decide that your personal need is a new relationship where the plan never deviates at all. Noone can blame you for that. But I think you have to stop trying to fight against how you feel. Accept how you feel and just feel it. I believe the discomfort of that is anxiety caused by the fact it's also at odds with the fact you want to R and you love your wife. Do you feel fraudulent too because of it?

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:20 AM, June 18th (Thursday)]