SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First post,

First let me say that I haven't spent a lot of time on this forum. (Or really any for that matter). I'm fairly internet illiterate. But I do think the post on this site "calling all bs" is fantastic and has been my primer for working through this.

I'm going to tell you everything (internet anonymity is wonderful). I picked up my wife's phone 5 years ago after I came home early from a football game between the Bengals and the Texans. The Texans slaughtered the Bengals and I couldn't watch anymore(JJ watt had a great game and even took the ball into the endzone). What was on my wife's phone was confirmation that she had been having an affair.

Ever since then I've been finding out about affairs every year or so... Usually by snooping. Well, always by snooping.

I told my therapist that this is a source of shame for me. She thinks I should just stop because of this.

I have been going to an S-Anon group as well. They seem to think snooping is bad for me.

I dragged my spouse to a marriage counselor several times. He thought it was good. I questioned him about it and he said most people don't know what the f*ck they are talking about and that I should trust him; it was good to do.

My wife shares her login with our daughters ipad. While I was in there helping her load new apps I found that my wife had keepsafe downloaded on one of her devices. It's a photo hiding app.

I want to confront her. I've been getting better and better in S-Anon and therapy and it probably is the best. But in my heart I know she just broke the final straw. That part of me just wants to say f it and go into her room and start going through her phone

But I can't do that either.

Now I'm drinking beers, peting my dog, and watching old episodes of start trek while I type this out. Sounds like a good time, but it's not.

Should I go in there and get her phone and start going through it? How do you guys think I should handle this? And is it really bad for you or not to snoop?

First you need to understand you are not required to provide evidence of her affairs (unless you want to stop her lying when you confront her).

She’s a serial cheater based on your post.

Before you confront you need a plan. Are you going to Divorce her? Are you leaving her immediately? Do you think exposing her will stop her from cheating?

You do not confront. You calmly tell her you know she’s been cheating for years. And you want the lying to stop. She needs to answer questions truthfully or you will end the conversation immediately.

You then ask her for her phone. If she refuses to give it to you immediately then you know she’s hiding something.

And you proceed according to whatever your plan is. But having a plan is very critical to your future and success.

If you have no plan — she will know you are not serious and will continue to cheat.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 10:55 PM, February 24th (Wednesday)]

Snooping? In my marriage, my wife can pick up my phone whenever the hell she wants. I can pick up her phone whenever the hell I want. Neither of us have ever cheated. There’s no secrets in a marriage except what she’s getting for Mother’s Day. There’s especially no secrets and no right to privacy if there’s a history of cheating. Absolute transparency. Neither of us do anything that makes the other uncomfortable. We have firm boundaries that doesn’t include secrets.

How many affairs have you uncovered? What did you do after your discovery? Did you confront? How did you confront? What was the result of any confrontation? What boundaries have you set?

It sounds like you currently have more than enough information to take action and end the madness. What are you waiting for? Turn off the Star Trek and beam back up to the ship and regain control. You may not be able to regain control of the marriage but you sure as hell can take control of your life, your dignity and your future.

Think it through first. Will it make you feel better, or will it make things worse?

I would do, personally.

I dragged my spouse to a marriage counselor several times.

Do you really want to be in a marriage where you always feel compelled to look for evidence of your wife’s latest betrayal?

One of the things I knew I simply could not do after discovering my ex-wife’s betrayal was to spend time having to be detective and monitor her phone calls, texts, emails, social-media, etc, to ensure myself that she was not betraying me again.

I didn’t want to spend a minute wondering if she really did have to stay late for work or was she really going to a working dinner or was it really a company travel trip or was she really on a girls night out or who was she with or whatever else I felt I had to keep an eye on to satisfy me, for the moment, that she wasn’t stabbing me and our kids in the back.

Fuck That.

Really be honest with yourself and decide if this is how you want to live your life and do you want your kids to watch all this happening before them?

Your question reminds me of a trick question a teacher once asked in a class:

"A city bus stops at a bus stop. 1 black person and 2 white people get on the bus. At the next stop, 3 black people and 4 white people get on. At the next stop, 2 black people get off; 3 black people get on. At the next stop, 3 white people get off; 1 white person and 2 black people get on.

How many times did the bus stop?"

In your post, you're telling us that you have repeatedly found hard evidence that your WW is cheating on you. But I think your question is whether you should continue "snooping" on her devices to find more evidence?

Dude, what about taking action concerning the cheating?

In my worldview, there is no privacy between spouses. The two become one and all that.

There have been plenty of threads here where a BH confronts a WW about cheating that he discovered by going through her phone. In the confrontation, she tries to bring up the "you've been snooping" line. You shut that shit down right away. "It doesn't matter how I found out. You've been cheating. We're here to discuss your cheating. If you won't discuss that, then the discussion is over. As is the marriage."

When a person cheats, breaks a promise to be loyal, honest, trustworthy.......there is no such concept as "snooping" after that. It becomes trust but verify.

And might the title of the thread more aptly be "To trust a cheater or not trust a cheater". I think you are asking the wrong thing and rationalizing something for some reason. In my M, there are no hidden apps, protected access, unknown passwords......it has nothing to do with fear of her cheating, it is a foundation for reinforcing trust.

Do you trust your wife?

Before I opened this post, just based on the subject, my answer was going to be yes, snoop. But after I read what you had to say, my answer is don't snoop. Because you don't need to. You already know who she is. You have all the information that you need to move forward. She is a serial cheater who has hurt you over and over and is not going to change.

Her right to privacy does not outweigh your right to an open, honest, loving marriage where you are valued.

You don’t have any of those things…but somehow she deserves her privacy? Just so I’m clear…You’re keeping quiet about the affairzzz to respect her privacy? You’re allowing her to betray you in the worst possible way all in the name of “privacy?”

You should not be ashamed of snooping. There is a podcast here in the general forum that you should look for and listen to, it’s titled “Finally! Therapists that get what a BS goes through.”

There is some discussion in there about this. Some see the snooping of the phone as a form of (or symptom of?) codependency, but it’s really the spouse seeking safety. You need to know where you stand. You need to know what is happening to you, otherwise your spouse has taken your agency away from you. That is no way to live.

Now what do you want?

Are you OK with her continuing to have affairzzz? If yes, then stop snooping and do nothing. If not, you have to do something. It sounds like you have all the evidence you need to confront.

Now, if you are willing to stay married then unfortunately you have to snoop. How else are you going to get comfortable that she’s not having more affairzzz? You need an open, honest marriage. If she’s going to maintain a secret shadow life in her phone, then you don’t have that.

Also, talk to an attorney and no more marriage counseling. I think you are wasting your time with marriage counseling.

Dogcopter, I find it unusual that everyone is advising you to stop looking but I have a theory as to why. I think it's because you snoop, you find out the A is still on, you go off the deep end, your WW does not stop cheating, and you don't make any concrete changes to get yourself out of infidelity. It's a vicious, painful cycle and even your supporters are probably a bit weary of witnessing it. They're probably thinking, "Well, if you don't take our advice or stand up for yourself, the least you can do is stop making it worse for yourself."

Yes, if you plan on staying with your WW no matter what and keep sharing her with OM for years to come, you're better off not even looking. But if you're finally ready to put an end to this, instead of snooping, demand she give you the phone, run a recovery program on it, ask her to take a polygraph test, and head towards D if she refuses to do any of it at any point. Don't just look at the phone. Look at the phone records. Google who she's talking to. And again - please strongly consider D because it is vastly better than living with a cheating spouse.

First off, get the Bengals out of your life. It's really not worth the pain of being a fan of the Brown family's piggy bank. That does help explain why you hung in there this long with your WW. Drafting Kijana Carter over Tony Bocelli was my last straw.

Snooping without purpose is pain shopping. Snooping to confirm that your WW is straying in order to decide on a plan of action is just being smart. You can't control what your WW does. You can control what you do in response.

Speak to an attorney. Figure out what Divorce looks like for you.

Implement the 180, See The Healing Library.

Start separating your finances.

File and move on.

In Ohio, you can use adultery as grounds for a divorce but you will need evidence. This is only a cause to file, so it doesn't have any impact on the divorce itself. It can be used to bring the WW to the table. Otherwise outside of a uncontested dissolution of marriage or one of the other at fault grounds, you will need to be separated for a year. Speak to an attorney.

If she's having a betrayal every year or so, why keep snooping? Just divorce her. Clearly there doesn't seem to be a relationship anymore and she doesn't seem to care.

All,

Thank you for the posts everybody. I wanted to give an update and I'm going to try to stay on topic because this is the part I'm really struggling with.

I got a lot of positive affirmation that snooping isn't that bad. I really have mixed emotions about it right now though. I absolutely agree that I have a right to look... but...

Some of you are really very right in your observation that there is a pattern here. I have snooped and repeatedly confronted many times. But I feel like it hurts me. I feel empowered when I confront her and fearlessly say "I know this and I would like you to tell me the truth of it." But I feel like I'm drinking poison when I snoop. I don't know if it was always that way. Maybe it's just a conscience decision to not want to play the game that she seems to be playing.

Rightfully, some of you are concerned about why I'm still here. The short answer is that I've come to believe she is not a bad person, but a sick person. She is bulimic, more now than I've ever seen her. She is depressed and anxious. She is a recovering alcoholic (far enough along that I can occasionally have beer in the house). She has a lot of childhood trauma she is trying to work through with a councellor on a fairly aggressive schedule (3/ month)

I stay to see if she will get better. I have decent boundaries around this thing. I sleep in a different room. I'm not trying to change her. I don't make promises I can't keep. I'm just kindof watching to see if she gets better.

And also I get to see my kids every damn day instead of every other day... which holds a hell of a lot of weight in the considerations.

She will or she won't and I'll have to move on soon if she doesn't. I'm actually pretty comfortable with this portion of it right now.

But in the course of my own recovery I'm struggling because I want to trust but verify as DIFM said. But I also don't want to spend anymore time on it like keptmyword said. And I also feel like it's important to be true to myself somehow through all this...

Does any of this make sense? lol I think I'm talking in circles now; I hope not.

I can only speak to my experience, but snooping was my only option because he just kept lying. The gaslighting made me doubt myself terribly and the snooping confirmed that I was not crazy.

For me the bottom line is he could not be trusted. I snooped to get to the truth. I gathered evidence like a PI. I still do snoop from time to time, but I prefer to think of it as verification that no further boundaries are being crossed.

If I had a do-over i would have snooped my ass off and left no stone unturned and gotten to the bottom once and for all, instead of the slow trickle of revelations.

I don't know what is right for you, but I believe there is a reason you still want to look and it is your gut telling you there is more. There has to be a way to put an end to the need to look, and for me it was finding the whole truth, not the fake news.

Good luck to you and know there are not wrong decisions here, just shitty options.

dogcopter

Hey man, sorry about all this - it sucks. You will get through it but it's a hard pill to swallow and it takes pain.

I'm going to tell you everything (internet anonymity is wonderful). I picked up my wife's phone 5 years ago after I came home early from a football game between the Bengals and the Texans. The Texans slaughtered the Bengals and I couldn't watch anymore(JJ watt had a great game and even took the ball into the endzone). What was on my wife's phone was confirmation that she had been having an affair.

Ever since then I've been finding out about affairs every year or so... Usually by snooping. Well, always by snooping.

So she's been cheating on you repeatedly and having affairs for years. To be sure, you've confronted her, right?

I told my therapist that this is a source of shame for me. She thinks I should just stop because of this.

I guess it depends - are you going to divorce her? If you have accepted that she's just going to have affairs, then yeah, I'd stop looking at her phone. I wouldn't accept her abusing you this way though. I would divorce her.

If you two are trying to reconcile then I think snooping is appropriate, especially if she keeps cheating. That said, how many times does she have to cheat before you pull the rip chord?

My wife shares her login with our daughters ipad. While I was in there helping her load new apps I found that my wife had keepsafe downloaded on one of her devices. It's a photo hiding app.

I want to confront her. I've been getting better and better in S-Anon and therapy and it probably is the best. But in my heart I know she just broke the final straw. That part of me just wants to say f it and go into her room and start going through her phone

But I can't do that either.

Only you can say what your limit is. That said, if this is the last straw then start gathering evidence. Take screenshots of the material, collect evidence, all of that and go to a lawyer. Don't confront her. Collect evidence and then hit her with divorce papers. You've certainly had enough of this bullshit.

While the pain will be intense, it'll go away and you'll get better and feel better in the long run.

dogcopter

Rightfully, some of you are concerned about why I'm still here. The short answer is that I've come to believe she is not a bad person, but a sick person. She is bulimic, more now than I've ever seen her. She is depressed and anxious. She is a recovering alcoholic (far enough along that I can occasionally have beer in the house). She has a lot of childhood trauma she is trying to work through with a councellor on a fairly aggressive schedule (3/ month)

I stay to see if she will get better. I have decent boundaries around this thing. I sleep in a different room. I'm not trying to change her. I don't make promises I can't keep. I'm just kindof watching to see if she gets better

.

You do not owe someone who is drowning your life vest when they've pulled you into the water to drown with them.

She's abused you and damaged you. You need to concentrate on yourself. She is no longer your problem, you are your problem. She has shown, repeatedly, that she will not get better and she will only make you worse.

Wish her luck and divorce her. Focus on yourself. If she heals, that's great for her, but you don't owe her a damn thing at this point.

And also I get to see my kids every damn day instead of every other day... which holds a hell of a lot of weight in the considerations.

I get it - I only see my kids 50% of the time now. It sucks but I'm happy. They get to see me happy. They don't get to see me sleeping in a different room than my ex and living a 'roommate' existence and believe that this is how married couples should act.

I’m really not trying to be harsh here. I get where you are. My wife was/is having an affair and used her phone to communicate. I started taking pictures of the communications with my phone. She discovered those pictures on my phone and I felt guilty for having those pictures. Feeling guilt is the way normal people with a conscience react. Cheaters take advantage of this, whether it’s intentional or on a subconscious level.

That you feel guilty for looking at her phone or feel like it hurts you tells me that you have been manipulated by the sick, twisted mind of a cheater. You have to snap out of the frame of mind. She is living in the shadows and she has you convinced that this is perfectly normal in a marriage. And for you to think otherwise makes you feel like YOU’RE the one with the problem. See how that works?

She’s not a bad person.

OK, but she betrayed you in the worst possible way a spouse can betray you. Think about that. If you’re like me, you’re hurting badly right now and have been for a while. How long are you going to let her continue to hurt you?

…but a sick person, She is bulimic…

She’s bulimic, therefore it’s OK to sleep with other men? She’s bulimic, therefore cannot be faithful? She deserves to sleep with other men because she is bulimic? You see where I’m going? You’re making excuses.

She is depressed and anxious

She’s depressed and anxious, therefore it’s OK to sleep with other men? She’s depressed and anxious, therefore cannot be faithful? She deserves to sleep with other men because she is depressed and anxious? Still does not justify sleeping with other men does it?

She is a recovering alcoholic…

Do I need to repeat the above questions?

She has a lot of childhood trauma…

A lot of people have childhood trauma and don’t cheat. You are making a lot of excuses. There are plenty of people who have suffered worse trauma than your wife and remain faithful.

I have decent boundaries around this thing.

Ummm, wut?

I get to see my kids every damn day…

But is that what’s best for your kids? You sleep in a different room. Do your kids think that is normal? Do they think maybe they feel like their parents don’t love each other anymore? Is that a healthy environment for them? I don’t know what day-to-day life is like for your kids, but I can tell you that living separate and both mom and dad happy is better for them than living together and mom and dad miserable. They need happy, healthy role models…it will set them on a course to thrive in life.

You threw the word “damn” in there. Your anger is misdirected.

You are living in limbo right now. It sucks to live in limbo. For your own sake you have to get out of infidelity. You’re clearly uncomfortable or else you would not have posted here. The folks here know what they are talking about. If you want to get out of infidelity, please read carefully. It is the goal of all of us posting here, to get you out of infidelity.

I get it - I only see my kids 50% of the time now. It sucks but I'm happy. They get to see me happy. They don't get to see me sleeping in a different room than my ex and living a 'roommate' existence and believe that this is how married couples should act.

This is a very good point. I am worried about the model I am portraying.

Good luck to you and know there are not wrong decisions here, just shitty options.

This is true. Sometimes I get mad about not having good options.

My XWH had issues too. Addiction, childhood trauma. He was a serial cheater. He was truly a pitiable creature a lot of the time. Lots of sadness, lots of crying when confronted. I had two choices. I could stay and be sick with him (because staying with such a person does make you mentally sick as well) or I could decide that I had a right to live a life free of that and choose myself.

You probably aren't even aware of how much of a black cloud you're living under because you've become acclimated to it. That this question "should I snoop and see the yearly cheating or not" is not a question anyone in a marriage should ever have to ask themselves. It just should not be. It is profoundly abnormal and it is a terrible stress and trauma to live under for years. S-Anon can be a great comfort, but it can also put you in a headspace to normalize these kinds of relationships. What you're living with is outrageous. It is appalling. It isn't par for the course. It's as normal as having a crocodile wandering freely inside your home. Dodging the snapping jaws to get to the kitchen. It is amazing what we human beings can adapt to. It is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness all at once. Battling a crocodile in the hallway could absolutely become a normal part of our day if we lived it long enough. It's easy to forget what life is like without these stresses when we're in them long enough.

I understand the pain of losing time with the kids, but this affects them. This kind of marriage does affect them. This will be the example of home life that they carry forever as normal. The dad that exists like this cannot be the equal of the dad that exists without this trauma. You've been hurt a great deal and on a regular basis. You deserve to get away from this and be healthy. You deserve a life of sanity and peace.

Not snooping/snooping isn't the dilemma. You already know what to expect from her. If you have a fantasy of her changing and becoming a person you want to be with, you might be skipping a few steps in your mind. Right now you're in constant crisis because all the cheating is still going on. You can't stop and truly address the trauma this has caused you when you're still in the middle of the crisis. Say she magically changes tomorrow. You have yet to even begin any concept of reconciliation. Everything has been about her and her issues for so long. I doubt you've had the headspace to deal with recovering from the betrayals. You can't know yet whether or not you could have a marriage with someone who put you through that. You'd still snoop for your own protection because you'd be a fool to trust her for years yet. It would distract you from your own healing.

She might have a heart of gold under all her issues or she might not. She might be able to become a better person or she might not. It could start happening today, next year, or never. You cannot control any part of that. The only thing you control is you, and maybe it's time to focus just on you for a while before you lose yourself entirely to someone else's problems.