SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Dday was 3 months ago. Together 14 years, married 6.5 years, mid 30s, two kids ages 4 and 2. WH had a 3 year EA and 1x PA (AP in different country). So far things have been going as "good" as they can for this situation. WH has been reading all the books, doing weekly IC and making immense strides in communication and emotional validation, weekly MC. To be honest, he has been vastly exceeding my expectations. There hasn't been any TTing, everything that he told me on Dday has held up to be the full and true story so far. Though of course I'm still always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Last night WH had a work dinner with his boss 40 minutes away from our house. He texted me at 8:16pm and let me know the dinner was over and he was going to get his car from valet and head home soon. At 9:15pm he checked in saying he hit some construction on the hwy, stopped for gas, and was close to our exit. 10:30pm he waltzes in drunk. Immediately, I'm on him about drinking and driving and question how a 40 min drive took 2hr 15 mins. I say even if I allowed him a 30 minute gas stop that doesn't add up. He mumbles that he checked his work email in the car for a bit before getting back on the road. I question why he's drunk- did he go out after? He says that he had 2 beers at dinner and was basically taking in circles. I knew it wasn't going to productive so I told him to go to bed and we'd talk about it in the morning. He fell asleep and I got the feeling to check his phone. Lo and behold there's a text that says "Hey, it's Kelly from *dive bar*. Hope you got home OK and please reach out if you ever need to talk". THEN I look into his Facebook messenger and there is a message from someone he "dated" in high school almost 20 years ago and it says "I'm glad we shoved that all into a quick text. Glad to be of help."

So, at this point I'm fuming and wake him up (which I knew was not a smart move- he was semi drunk and asleep and not in a place to have the in-depth conversation I needed). He was basically mumbling nonsense, I pressed him further. He said Kelly was a neighborhood lady he met and mumbled more nonsense. I got angry (no shouting or anything), he got angry and started screaming that he's trying to do his best, putting his all into this, doesn't want to live, cannot stand to be in his own body after what he's done, etc. He started crying and shaking and hit a hole in the wall. We separated and went to bed.

This morning he came in sobbing and said that he has not had a minute to himself in 3 months since dday (truth) and he stopped at the dive bar on the corner to get a drink alone before coming home. He said while in there, two older women were discussing an affair and divorce, he chimed in and started getting upset, they bought him a drink which he usually only drinks beer so this tipped him from tipsy to drunk, and gave him advice. He said when he stood up to come home he realized he was drunk and I was going to be mad and he drove the block home and then he panic lied when I questioned him. He went on to say that the girl he dated in HS has the same age kids (true), her husband had an affair a couple years ago which he heard through the gossip chain, and he reached out to see if she had any pointers because it seemed like they were reconciled happily.

The Kelly lady checks out- I found her Facebook and info from her phone number and she's like a 60yo grandma, divorced. Don't really have a way to verify the hs dater girl thing. The conversation was deleted which he says was only because he knew I'd be upset but he doesn't know anyone else that's been through this (true- we don't). HELLO IF YOU KNEW I'D BE UPSET THAT'S A GOOD CLUE TO NOT DO THAT THING. He sent her a message this morning that said it was an inappropriate source to seek understanding from and there wouldn't be any more contact.

He said he feels so alone and was grasping at straws for someone to talk to other than me that's been in this situation. I haven't shown him SI, but debating doing so. Btw he is literally like 30 pages into Not Just Friends which is even more infuriating.

Idk what I'm seeking here- any advice or thoughts? Does every WS f up at some point? Is this going to seal our fate? I was justttt about to be at the point of seeing a glimmer of hope. I hate this so much.

I can understand why you are spiraling. There are a lot of big ones wrapped up in this scenario. I actually think most of his explanation is bullshit, but I'm not you.
When you love someone, seeking out understanding elsewhere shouldn't even enter the picture. Particularly not an ex girlfriend from 20 years ago. How many ex boyfriends from 20 years ago do you have in speed dial. I don't even have just friends' numbers from that long ago. And funny that he deleted that message but not Kelly's.

Either way, your use of this being an F-Up is concerning. Honesty and faithfulness should not be a learned behavior. You love your partner, and therefore there is no need to connect with someone else about emotional stuff. He is supposed to be gaining your trust back, but then lies about where he is, and who he's talking to, instead of being excited to come back home to the person who is graciously giving him the gift of reconciliation.

Cheating and dishonestly is not an F-Up. This is not potty training, where your kid sometimes poops their pants because they didn't make it in time. You either love someone enough to be honest and loyal or not. You shouldn't get to keep practicing until you get it right. I doubt that's what you signed up for.

When we were about six months into R, my H came home from work in an absolute panic and told me that he had been stopped in the parking lot at work by the OW. He stood there and talked to her for several minutes before he realized how badly he was messing up and bolted. The fact that he fessed up immediately was his saving grace. (And that the conversation was about how he had made the right decision by R'ing with me and was happy. That helped. ) But yeah, even the WSs who do lots of things right aren't always perfect, IMO. It's a growth process.

The conversation was deleted which he says was only because he knew I'd be upset

Which should have been his first major clue that 1) he should not be having that conversation, and 2) he shouldn't have lied about it or deleted it. He should have fronted himself out immediately when he realized it was a mistake. That's how trust is earned. Perfect behavior is good, but confessing slip-ups immediately is great for trust-building.

This morning he came in sobbing and said that he has not had a minute to himself in 3 months since dday (truth) and he stopped at the dive bar on the corner to get a drink alone before coming home.

And he could have told you about that too, in real time. "I'm going to stop at Dive Bar for a quick drink. I need some alone time." Maybe he can come up with a healthier way to get some alone time and start working on doing a better job communicating his needs and feelings and thoughts to you.

Looks like you've got your topic for next week's MC.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:31 PM, Friday, March 31st]

Hi NBJB,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

I had a EA/PA on my H in 2019, and I remember well the first months after it. I hated myself, shame had swallowed me whole and I wished I were dead. Us WS's are often plagued by shame before our A's anyway, not being able to process guilt and remorse properly in the first place. Adding to that, we've likely got a lot of self hate to start with.

This failure on your WH's part is going to make you question all the work he's done so far. It's likely he became overwhelmed and reverted to old habits. His shame habits (hiding, lying) are likely learned from childhood and will take a long time to correct.

The good news is (if there's any to be had in this whole scenario), he's reading the books, he's doing the IC, he's coming clean to you and his stories are checking out.

I think it would be good for him to come here or on another infidelity board and get some help. It's helpful to know we're not alone in WS land. Having the ability to communicate with others going through the same thing at nearly the same time (we're kind of grouped into "classes") is really beneficial. Us other WS's can encourage or level 2x4's as needed and help WS's through like an AA group.

It is an addiction. It's a sick love of self and feeling better at all costs that drives us to these behaviors. The key part is getting to a place where we're willing to change. It sounds like he's gotten to the bottom point where he's so sick of himself that he knows he has to change or die.

I f'd up repeatedly, TT'd my H and in general had my head up my ass blaming my A on our M's problems and H's EA's. The A rests squarely with me. I chose that as a response to the hurts I had. So long as your WH can stick to the belief that it was HIS choices and it's HIS work to get better and help you heal, then there may be a chance for R.

This isn't to say you can't be mad as hell. You should be. If you weren't there wouldn't be any chance at R- indifference is the opposite of love.

Keep being mad as hell when he slips up. Keep encouraging him to be honest though, he needs to be kept accountable.

I am sorry he's done this. He is not a remorseful WS he is lying, sneaking, and messaging women. There is no excuse for this other than, he does not take you seriously, he does not take R seriously. There is nothing to work with here.

Does every WS f up at some point?

Not the ones that are serious about R. Not the ones that see your pain and absolutely hate what they've done. Its not a F up, its a deliberate act of lying and sneaking around.

I'm sorry he's done this but don't accept his minimizing or blameshifting.

Thanks, everyone. I always appreciate how articulate everyone here is- you all are so great at putting my thoughts and feelings down into words.

I didn't mean anything by calling in a F up. I was just rage typing at the time and I fully understand and agree that it was intentional. WS is in a rough place, I cannot image anything lower. Last night immediately dissolved pretty much any fleeting feelings of understanding I had towards him. He had been so solid the last three months, I really thought he was at the very initial stages of being a safe partner for me in the future. Then all that gone in one night. Ugh.

Please do not share this site with him, it's your safe space.

If he needs to talk, he should take initiative and find a good therapist, and NOT talk to ANY woman about his affair. Or anything else personal for that matter.

I'd also suggest "alone time" taking a long walk or run or stopping at a local coffee shop and taking a bit of time for himself OR meeting up with a TRUSTED friend/family member for a quick bite to decompress.

Honestly, if my WH came home drunk after D-Day and deleted messages, I would have been raging. He also needs to stay away from alcohol at this point to keep a clear head.

I can understand why you are upset. Not only the fact that he lied, he was drunk, he could have killed himself or someone else while he was driving.

Does every WS f up at some point?

Not the ones that are serious about R. Not the ones that see your pain and absolutely hate what they've done.

I couldn't disagree with this more. My H was dead-ass serious about R and extremely empathetic to my pain. Like I said above, he F'ed up and stopped when the OW popped out of her car in the company parking lot. Yes, he did the wrong thing by stopping and talking to her, but he course-corrected and bolted, then immediately told me. To me, that helped me to trust him even more than had he not been tested, failed, corrected, and confessed.

His shame habits (hiding, lying) are likely learned from childhood and will take a long time to correct.

100% this. Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw might be a helpful addition to your WS's library.

He's still making choices behind your back. I think that's the big ticket issue. That's about respecting your agency. Instead, he's treating you like the marriage police.

There has historically been merit in some WS's using this site in tandem with their BS. Right now though, this guy is only 30 pages into Not Just Friends. Showing up and nodding his head in MC isn't the same thing as actually doing the introspective and humbling work he needs to do to fix whatever went wrong in his character that allowed perfidy to be a legitimate choice in his decision tree.

If it's really about learning how he might fix things, it's the INFORMATION AGE out there. Knowledge is at our fingertips; books, websites, articles, podcasts. He's telling you that two old barflies and his ex-girlfriend are his first line of inquiry? What other sources has he checked which might support his "I was only curious" story?

This morning he came in sobbing and said that he has not had a minute to himself in 3 months since dday (truth) and he stopped at the dive bar on the corner to get a drink alone before coming home.

This is a pity party at best, and at worst a lie to cover up for some other behavior. He hasn't built up enough new trust with you yet to expect you to believe whatever account he gives you for it. I don't think you're wrong to be skeptical and angry. It's not your job to be the grown up in your marriage and his to be the sulky teenager.

Bottom line is that it sounds like your WH needs to decide whether he's where he wants to be. It's not your job to fix his life for him, to be his mommy, or his warden. You deserve a real partner in life, and if he doesn't want it to be him, he should probably get say so.

I couldn't disagree with this more. My H was dead-ass serious about R and extremely empathetic to my pain. Like I said above, he F'ed up and stopped when the OW popped out of her car in the company parking lot.

I wasn’t speaking to your situation, you are thread jacking. Post your own thread about your own situation.

Not the ones that are serious about R. Not the ones that see your pain and absolutely hate what they've done. Its not a F up, its a deliberate act of lying and sneaking around.

I think most of them, since they lied their way into it, fall back on trying to lie their way out of it. Their basic skills of being a decent partner are weak. Their habit patterns suck. Expecting them to immediately become the person they should have before the stuff hit the fan is a poor bet.

That said, it sets the clock back to zero when stuff like this happens. You can only tolerate so much of that, and you don’t need to tolerate any of it if you don’t want to.

You’ve been heard, NBJB

Why did he feel the need to stop off at another bar?

Talking to other women? 😡😡😡

Makes no sense to me. He doesn’t need to be talking to other women (duh!). He needs to be talking to a professional counselor.

He just proved to you that in troubled times, he will reach out to other women!!!

I am so sorry for you. Back to square one.

I had one boundary I set for my H after dday2. No bars!!!! Period. As he met the OW in a bar, that was my only clear boundary.

Violated that in the first month after Dday for a quick meeting with his boss. In a bar waiting for his train home. I was furious!

But he never did it again. Lesson learned.

He also aired his grievances and problems after dday2 to a female grad school classmate. Boy was I furious! He never made that mistake again either.

Slow learners!!!!! 🤪

[This message edited by The1stWife at 6:51 AM, Saturday, April 1st]

(((NBJB)))

One of the red flags

He fell asleep and I got the feeling to check his phone. Lo and behold there's a text that says "Hey, it's Kelly from *dive bar*. Hope you got home OK and please reach out if you ever need to talk".

What's your WS habit to give his phone # to the strangers???

Sacred, huge difference. Yours immediately came home and told you. He didn't get caught.

OP..contacting the ex sounds very much like he was fishing for an affair. Then he deleted it. This was very intentional.

And,I agree. A WS won't be perfect after dday. But these are not slip ups. These were very intentional. A WS who wants R will prioritize honesty,and their BS.

You say he's been so remorseful,but a remorseful wouldn't do any of this. Interacting inappropriately with other women,deleting things, and then basically blaming you,saying he deleted them because you would get mad. Had he not done it in the first place, then there wouldn't have been anything to hide.

His mask slipped. Compliance is not remorse.

Also,by telling other women he's had an affair,he's signaling to them that his boundaries are weak,and he might be open to another one.

The WS will slip up, they won’t be perfect. My W would have moments of defensiveness, still acted selfish in some ways, these were slip ups we worked through. Men still try to contact my W privately on SM and she alerts me every time, she doesn’t delete anything, she waits for me to read and delete the messages.

Lying, sneaking and contacting members of the opposite sex, is not a F up, it’s a deliberate, thought out plan to deceive and fish for another A.

So he hasn’t had a minute to himself in three months and he finally does gets a minute to himself and THIS is what he does?

Woof.

Integrity is what we do when no one is watching. All the good behaviour in the world while he’s being watched doesn’t matter one bit if the second you turn your back, he reverts back to Wayward mode.

I’m so sorry BrokenNotBent. You’re absolutely right to be livid about this. I think slip-ups are bound to happen, leopards don’t change their spots overnight after all. When slips ups occur, I think watching HOW they deal with it is typically a good way to judge change and commitment to R ie. did they recognize where they went wrong and notify you immediately or did they lie and double down. The former builds trust, the latter destroys it. This wasn’t a momentary lapse of judgement, he made multiple decisions and actively lied to you before and after doing so.

Presumably you have drawn some hard lines in the sand as you inched closer to R. My guess is that lying, texting other women, deleting messages, etc were all part of it. I do believe there need to be consequences when lines are crossed. You need to decide what those consequences will be.

At about 2-3 months from D-day, at a time when I was starting to believe that R was a real possibility for us, it came out that my husband (who had otherwise been a pretty "model wayward") had lied about the timing of an event near the start of his A. I had all the facts right but he had lied about the timing (because he knew I’d find it especially hurtful blah blah blah - he was right!). In the grand scheme of everything else it was a small lie but the fact that he lied at all was an absolute dealbreaker to me.
I lost my damn mind. I left work without telling anyone and he found me hours later crying and ranting while doing laps of a park nearby. I told him it was over, I wasn’t trying anymore. For the first time, I didn’t give a shit about what happened. I told him he wasn’t allowed to come home and I made him tell his family (previously I had held back on this, partly out of embarrassment and partly because I knew it was a cat I couldn’t put back in the bag). I eventually went home alone and turned my phone off for the the rest of the night. He showed up the next morning, with coffee and breakfast, after spending the night on his sisters couch, with a list of other 3-4 other lies or omissions. Most that I could never possibly have ever proven wrong (again, small stuff but he wanted to show me he understood that the truth meant the WHOLE truth). After that I never got another lie - ever.

Looking back, that park ranting episode (likely my most unhinged moment), was a turning point. People say it all the time, but I believe it’s true. You have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it.

Good luck to you. We are here to get you through this.

How are you holding up NotBrokenJustBent?

I couldn't disagree with this more. My H was dead-ass serious about R and extremely empathetic to my pain. Like I said above, he F'ed up and stopped when the OW popped out of her car in the company parking lot.

I wasn’t speaking to your situation, you are thread jacking. Post your own thread about your own situation.

I'm hurt by the sharp rebuke and don't think it was deserved. I do get (what I think is) your point that the OP'S H's sneaky behavior was not that of someone who is serious about R. But I think that sometimes the shame habits cause regression, and it doesn't mean that all hope is lost. I was trying to reassure OP.

Tanner, after reading your next post, which said, "The WS will slip up, they won’t be perfect. My W would have moments of defensiveness, still acted selfish in some ways, these were slip ups we worked through." I think we're actually on the same page.

Reading NBJB's original post, though, it sounds like the contacts themselves were inappropriate, but the subject matter on both counts was infidelity recovery. (Allegedly, since he pulled a dummy move and deleted the messages with the ex.) What little there is doesn't read to me like he was trolling for a new OW. It reads like he went to the wrong people for advice and then wasn't forthcoming about what he'd done. ETA: HellFire is right that this is an appalling lack of boundaries and not something any married person should be doing.

Sacred, huge difference. Yours immediately came home and told you. He didn't get caught.

You're right, of course. He did a lot of things wrong. My guess is that he got frustrated and was rebelling against the tight accountability that WSs must offer willingly in order to R. He's (hopefully) learning that rebellion has pretty crappy consequences, and communicating frustrations with his BS in real time is the way to go.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:02 PM, Tuesday, April 4th]

but the subject matter on both counts was infidelity

Talking to other women,especially an ex girlfriend, about issues in your marriage is not "affair recovery." It's giving other women a window into your marriage. That window should be permanently nailed shut. It's an appalling lack of boundaries. Which is what lead to having an affair in the first place.