SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

SheWiz - To quote someone, copy their text into the reply box, then highlight the text and hit the "quote" box to the left near the ones for italics and bold.

Happy -

I was on vacation last week while in Arizona and through Labor Day so short week. Being at work has been a pretty good distraction. Was harder at first, but it's been getting easier. In general I'm functioning more normally than I did 5 weeks ago. I'm on meds for sleeping (ambien), and I only popped the anti-anxiety meds (Ativan) two times so far.

My kids have been as good as they can be. The boys know I'm by Uncle X's house and they miss me, but seeing them when I came back and on Monday, was great and I talk to them every night. Same with my girls. They're in IC and they say it's okay. They're less focused on the affair and more on the impact to me and their mom, and what it means for them. They are pissed at her for causing what they see as a breakup of our family. My 16 year old is confused and scared. She associates sex with love (good!), so if her mom had an affair, doesn't that mean she doesn't love me anymore? Does that mean she wants to leave? And if she does love me, then how could she have an affair? Great questions, kiddo! I told her all the right things, and she said her mom has been telling her that people sometimes do horrible things, even to someone they love and that's what she did, but it doesn't mean she doesn't love me or wanted to leave me and that she'll never ever leave her. My 16 year old just wants us all to be a family together again like before. I just told her that I want that too and I hope we can all make it happen.

My 19 year old is pissed off. She's upset at the betrayal and the consequences and blames her mom for it all. She's admitted she once lashed out at my wife and called her a slut (my wife didn't tell me about this, my daughter confessed on her own and said she apologized for and swore to me she'd never do again). She said my wife agreed with her and apologized to her and begged her not to follow her example. To be a better person than she is. My daughter has said she loves her mom, and loves me, and she's just so angry at it all. She said her therapist is helping her deal with these feelings of anger.

My 2 week break is up today actually, but I'm heading over to the house to talk tomorrow after work. I do plan on moving back home.

- I broke off in the middle of this reply to handle something at work and came back and saw Bigger's note. As usual, insightful and on point.

I would suggest you visit your wife. Let her know that you have decided that you want to reconcile. Tell her you have doubts about if it will work out and that there is an immense path ahead. The only commitment you can make right now is that you will try. Be totally honest: I can imagine that you have your doubts and issues. Don’t hesitate to tell her how conflicted you are about her as the woman you love and her as the woman that inflicted the worst pain possible on you. Make it clear that if she commits to it then the goal is to create the best marriage possible, based on mutual respect and love.

Be clear on getting an answer from her. She needs to tell you that she accepts your gift and is willing to do the work.

Very timely, Bigger. This is my plan. But I don't know what she is going to tell me, but unless she tells me something totally out of the blue (another affair, she's leaving me, etc.), as I said before, I plan on moving back home. If I'm going to see whether I can reconcile (or really, if I do want to), I feel like I need to be there. How can she show me if I'm absent? So, that's my next move. Plus, I want to be there for my kids and at least keep us together as best I can.

Suggesting that Wallup tell his wife that he wants to reconcile before Wallup has decided that he wants to reconcile may be, respectfully, the worst advice that I've ever read on this board.

It's his decision to make.

Eric - Yes, it is my decision. But I need to see if I truly do want to. I believe I do, but I don't know if she's the person who I can reconcile with (if that makes sense). Is she W or WW? Is she split right now at 70%/30% and trending toward 100% W, or is she's still mostly WW? That will significantly impact whether we can reconcile, obviously. So I plan on telling her I want to reconcile but don't know if we can. And that a great deal is dependent upon her, and the two of us working together.

Can you define what a W is and what a WW is?

For academic purposes.

Eric,

Not sure if you're being facetious.

Depends on her actions and how she deals with me and the consequences of her affair. What does she say, what does she do? Certain behaviors are WW behaviors, but others are W behaviors. I need to see who she is or who she wants to be.

That's all.

Let her say what she has to first, before you commit to going back.

Let her say what she has to first, before you commit to going back.

Ummm…no. The going back is for me, my kids, and then for her/us. It is my house after all. Regardless of what she says, I'm going back. What she says will impact my decision to want to reconcile and explore whether we can. That's all.

Many people suggest not making any decisions for six months. I kind of gave myself that amount of time to assess husband's remorsefulness. Still here because he wears his remorse quite openly. His actions speak to personal growth.

Hell, you could lean towards reconciliation and in two years it may occur to you that infidelity was always a deal breaker. That's why you cannot put any time or label pressures on your actions.

Infidelity causes such a flux in daily life, emotions, actions, it's crazy. But, somehow, we live it.

Going back home will be the only way to tell which wife is with you. Each day will reveal something. Take your time.

Valentine - Yes. And I need to see if she's someone I can try to reconcile with. This is not me telling her we are going to reconcile, it's me telling her that I want to reconcile but need to see if that's something that can happen.

I would caution against seeing the W and the WW as separate people.

In my experience, I overlooked certain traits in my WW that allowed (enabled?) her to have an A. I made excuses for them or dismissed them entirely, but they were always there. The person you thought your W was would never have betrayed you. She's shown you she's not that person. It was one of the scarier realizations from the whole ordeal for me. It put a giant question mark on the whole relationship for me.

I don't think people have some radical character change and morph into a WS because some other person shows interest in them. Thinking she will somehow transform back into a faithful wife is misguided thinking. A cheater has not suddenly been overcome by some alien part of themselves that has taken control, made them cheat, and made them treat you badly when they didn’t before, all while being a really great spouse despite it all.

Tread carefully amigo.

stayedwiththekids articulated my question, I was not being glib --

You stated that you had to see your wife separately than the WW. That particular quote is a compartmentalization technique which is important in the early stages to try to gain footing back on terra firma, but in later stages (where you are at now) ignores the reality that they are one and the same.

You're going back in to deal with the reality that the person you'll be sharing the house with is the same exact person who did and is capable of doing all of those things. Ignoring that fact is effectively rug sweeping your own emotions, which WILL rebubble to the surface.

Eric,

No, I think you're taking me too literally. I need to see where she's at. Of course they are one and the same. And she needs to figure out why she went from W to WW. I need to see who she's trying to be and there are, IMO, different behaviors that exemplify both sides of the person. Bad metaphor? That's all.

...but in later stages (where you are at now) ignores the reality that they are one and the same.

She was always that person. That's who he married. She always had to capacity to act as a W or as a WW. She didn't do those things for the first 27 years. She could have never done them, and taken that capability to the grave. Instead, she did them for a few months and now we know a deeper truth about her. I expect she knows a deeper truth about herself too. Hopefully.

Question is, what is she going to choose to do for the next 50? We know she is capable of doing the wrong things, she got caught in an affair. We also know she is capable of doing the right things. She did them for 27 years already. That's the W versus WW question.

My wife has been great for 28 years. I never forget what she has the capacity for, crooked timber of humanity and all that. I know who she is in a way I didn't before. Deeper truth. But I certainly make a difference between the person she chose to be then and the one she has chosen to be for the last 28, which by the way is a much better person than the one I actually married. Go figure.

Hey Walloped,

I think you and all of us on SI are all certain that when you say you want to reconcile she will be overjoyed and agree to do whatever you want, and will try to say exactly what you want to hear.

What I'd like you to think about, maybe comment on is this: I get the "splitting" of W and WW in your mind as a way to go. Would you agree that the WW part is always going to be there, is in fact a part of who she has always been and always will be, and that the "split" (70/30, 80/20, whatever) is never going to get to 100% W and 0% WW? That she will always need to watch out and control the WW part and you will always be aware that it is there and could express itself again?

I think I would be doing exactly what you are doing now, and I admire how you've handled all of this.

One reason I mention that the WW part is always there is because it needs to be understood -- maybe there are ways that the drives and desires of the WW part of your wife can be satisfied and brought in to actually strengthen your marriage. Maybe they will just always need to be watched and managed and suppressed. I don't know, but I do think that the WW part is and always will be there so it is best to truly understand it and do so openly with her and you talking about it.

So labels like "slut" or "whore" that she might call herself are in that sense an attempt to rug-sweep and not look at it clearly and to do so together. It enables her to hide things from you by simply pasting a label on it that you don't want to deal with or think about.

Hope this makes sense. Best wishes, I do think you can have a great and loving marriage again with this woman.

It is comforting for the BS to believe abrupt, affair-related character change.

My d-day was over 16 years ago. I've lurked here for years, read a bunch of fucking books, gone to MC, IC, church counselling, marriage bootcamps, retreats, etc.

There are basically two camps of betrayed spouses:

The first group thinks staying with someone who chose to cheat, betray both you and their family, is often judged as weak, codependent, and lacking in self-respect. The why question, the what could possibly be worth risking all we have, the how could you, the lengthy deception, are really impossible questions to answer. No answer will suddenly make you understand her position. It's a very difficult thing to wrap your mind around. These people feel shame, embarrassment, and emasculated. They stay in the M because of kids, finances, age, the devil that you know, or various other reasons. They know the M will never be the same but choose to live with the limitations.

Then there are those that feel being supportive and loving towards someone who had a temporary, but reversible, personality change allows them to possess a self-image of selfless virtue. We'll both get IC and MC and I'll be the bigger person and try to fix whatever went wrong in our M. I will forever be the victim in this relationship. She knows how much she hurt me and I don't want to make her feel like she's a piece of shit. Clearly, she will never do anything remotely like this again. She has remorse and she's obviously changed her wayward behavior. She'll spend the rest of her life making it up to me. She's learned her lesson. The AP cleverly manipulated her into an A that only lasted months\years. She said she loved him but sees that was now a mistake and she didn't really mean it. No, saying I love you to you is different - she really means it. She just forgot how much you mean to her. The A became tiresome and the poor thing just didn't know how to end it. All of the lies and extra sex, which wasn't that good anyway, was wearing her down. She's glad it was discovered. Our marriage is stronger now. Blah, blah, fucking blah.

Both groups go on to experience other d days, so I don't know what the right answer is.

I think you'll find you see your WW in a different light now. Her flaws and character deficiencies will become more and more obvious to you as you peel back the layers into how this whole thing happened.

Just go into the situation with your eyes open.

Walloped, I've followed your story since your first posting.

It looks like you've have so many opinions to digest and have navigated them really well. I know you are still in immense pain and not a little suffering, so the only advice I want to give is to take care of yourself. You have a bunch on your shoulders, so accept help when it's offered (from family and friends) and get as much rest as you can.

This next part shouldn't be classified as advice, this is pure observation and has niggled at me from the beginning.

I haven't seen anyone else comment on it, so I assumed that maybe personality or cultural norm was a factor but in the end I just don't think so.

To me, from little instances, your wife displays an immaturity that seems a bit odd. I know that is contradictory to her history of being a good mother and active partner; but I still see it.

First, the controversy over you not helping enough with the wedding stuff. I don't mean to be a curmudgeon but if the Mother of the Bride is running around with all the hectic planning, it's because she put herself squarely in that spot. I know there are a variety of 'reasons' she was in that spot but at the end of the day the two adults getting married are capable of handling their own wedding.

Usually, MoB's that 'Woah's me' about all the stuff that they have to put up with to non-family members or close friends, tend to be attention seekers.

I don't need to point out the specifics of what her sister had to snap her out of.

Lastly, the screaming to turn off the music. Yes, it was a shocking moment to realize what the song meant and how it affected you. How does she deal with the shocking moment? Quietly go to turn off the music and maybe give you an I'm sorry look? Or make a big display have all the attention on her and you while you are overcome?

I'm not giving advice either way of if you should stay with her or not. I just wanted to point out what pops out to me about her personality in the few anecdotes you have shared. Either way maybe it's something to step back and look at. Maybe address it with her or just keep to yourself and be aware of.

best wishes

SpokenFor - yes. I can agree with that.

I've said this in a PM and I'm going to repeat it here to clarify my thinking. I am not going in saying I want to reconcile, let's go! I am planning on saying that my goal is to want to reconcile, but I don't know yet if she's safe for me to even attempt it. I don't know who she is. I don't know if I'll have the strength to try. A great deal depends on her and her actions. She needs to show me that she is someone that I will want to reconcile with. But I can't figure that out if I'm staying at my brother's house, so that's why I'm heading home. That's all. I am not beginning R. I am telling her that beginning R is something I want to work towards, but too much is uncertain. Make sense?

MCGear - No, she's not an attention hound. And she was not the MoB you described. True, I haven't seen her much in the past 2 weeks, but I think now she's basically a scared rabbit jumping at all noises and reacting accordingly. It's not healthy nor ideal, but my reactions aren't what I'd deem normal at this stage anyway (they maybe be normal for this stage, but they're not normal for most people - oh, whatever - you know what I mean). I'm not analyzing every little thing. can't do it. I'd go nuts.

Hey Walloped... just curious. You're getting a look at what it looks like to potentially be divorced and on your own (not in the house). Do you see that you will be fine on your own? Just curious. That could be a key factor for you in going into trying to R. Knowing that no matter what happens that you'll be ok would put you in the drivers seat. One of the advantages of what a separation that you are having can provide. How do you feel about YOU regardless of the outcome?

yop

W

That makes perfect sense. These few weeks have served their purpose and you'll emerged with some clarity.

And like the pragmatic guy you are, your clarity is focused on the process rather than the end-result.

Healthy. Very healthy IMHO.

yearsofpain25 - Eric is right on target that I am focusing on the process, not the end goal. I cannot control the end result - so much of it is out of my hands. I can only do what I can do, and provide encouragement and support for my wife so that she feels she can do what she needs to do, if she chooses it. Then we'll see where we end up.

Basically, to answer your question, the past 2 weeks were a God send. I trigger, still need meds to sleep, cry on occasion, and still get panic attacks (trouble breathing, shakes, etc., for which I took meds for), but I'm better (how pathetic does that sound given what I just wrote?). Meaning, I can see that I'll be okay no matter where we end up. I prefer not to end up alone, but if that's what happens, well, I'll be more than sad about it, but it's not the end of the world. I'll be fine. I have my kids, my brother and his family, and I have me. I'll be okay.