SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Awesome update Walloped. Now the new journey of healing begins. We work weekly on a gratitude list. Gives us perspective on how blessed we truly are and helps frame our purpose. I am grateful for the gift God has given you to write so freely and honestly. Please don't stop. It is very helpful in our recovery. Continued prayers from the heart from our family to yours.

She felt useless and unwanted in life. She knew and always treasured her role as a mom but my daughter getting married had her feeling that she was no longer going to be needed. Then what good was she? What value did she provide? She had this need to be loved and told that she was worthy.

Apparently, at home, she was always a good for nothing and would get beaten for not doing chores, etc. she thought that was normal life. And so when I was too busy to spend time on the wedding, she started playing these tapes in her head about what the next step was.

First I'm abandoning her and leaving her alone to deal with the wedding. Then she has no value because her role as a mother is ending, and soon we won't have a marriage either because we'll end up just like her parents. She was back to being a good for nothing. My "abandoning" her was just the first step. And that's when POS stepped in.

It’s like your wife was so afraid of falling off of a cliff that she jumped. The reason her affair hit you so hard was because she was so very very special to you. If I remember correctly you were her one and only.

I’m an old guy and what keeps you together and happy after the kids are gone is “special.” When you see old couples touch each other’s hand it’s because of “special.” Your wife did the one thing that would greatly increase the likelihood of what she was afraid of to actually happen. She defiled “special.”

How old is your youngest kid? It seems like she had a few remaining years of being needed as a mother.

You are a remarkable man and seem to have the best exWW anyone could ask for. Good luck.

Graywolf - My youngest son is 8. She did bring him up and say how it wasn't rational since she has many years with our other kids - but becoming a mother-in-law triggered all these feelings in her. How this was basically the beginning of the end.

The section you quoted, well, I probably didn't do a really good job of explaining all of that but it's a sliver of what we talked about and what she learned through IC.

And yeah - we used to see those cute old couples taking walks in the evening where she has her arm linked in his and we'd say how we hope we can be like that one day when we reach that stage. We always envied those cute older couples. And I think you're exactly right. She was so scared of not having that, that she did the one thing that would potentially prevent it.

As an aside, and this is to Foley's post - I did have a conversation with her sister this morning. I discussed what my wife told me and asked her about it. She and my wife are very different personalities and she said they both handled their childhood very differently. My SIL was and is a very outwardly tough person. She would goad her father, taunt him when he'd hit her. Say things like, "So, do you feel more of a man now? Is that all you can do? Hit me again if it makes you feel better." Things like that. My wife was the opposite. She didn't cower, but she tried to appease. That if she just did this one thing he wanted, he'd love her and be happy with her and praise her. And so her whole childhood was spent trying to make her parents happy and she'd react to the morsels of praise she'd receive on occasion like she'd just gotten the most amazing birthday present.

So, today, my SIL is a cynical person. A good person. A loving person. Very protective of her family. Will do anything for her kids. But you have to get through the tough exterior to see it. Otherwise, she can be very off-putting to strangers. My wife is different. Super outgoing and giving. Everyone likes her straight away because she is warm and giving and sweet. But it's this personality trait that made her an easier target for POS.

She was so scared of not having that, that she did the one thing that would potentially prevent it.

Some call it a "self-fulfilling prophecy". A person is so convinced that a certain negative thing will happen to them (because they have a specific view of themselves and the world and therefore their inexorable fate) that they will unconsciously cause the feared outcome by acting out in such a way that they will cause it. It is not uncommon that people who have problems with their self-esteem will do things that will result in a confirmation of their fear. At the same time it will result ultimately in a confirmation of their previous opinion of themselves that they are flawed and therefore deserve to be punished or abandoned.

That if she just did this one thing he wanted, he'd love her and be happy with her and praise her.

It sounds a lot like what happened during the affair. She re-enacted the same situation from childhood. POSOM (a predator) was in some ways reminding her of her father and she had a transferential reaction, with the POSOM being (at least initially) like a benevolent father and her having the same craving for praise and then (unconsciously) feeling that this was "love". Just like had happened in her family of origin.

Sorry if this sounds too much like psycho-babble.

My wife was the opposite. She didn't cower, but she tried to appease. That if she just did this one thing he wanted, he'd love her and be happy with her and praise her. And so her whole childhood was spent trying to make her parents happy and she'd react to the morsels of praise she'd receive on occasion like she'd just gotten the most amazing birthday present.

In retrospect, was any of this dynamic present throughout your marriage? Not the actual abuse, of course, but perhaps some internalized version of her childhood playing itself out in her head the whole time? (E.g. the excessive desire to please - like, perhaps, working overtime on the wedding, volunteering all over the place, ...)

If that is the case, and if she's able to come to grips with it, you may wind up with a much better marriage than you had before, even taking into account the recent damage.

[This message edited by Foley05 at 12:32 PM, September 13th (Sunday)]

longtime sucker - it is, but it also seems to be what happened. I have a hard time relating because I never allowed other people to define me. For example, my mom is a real sarcastic person and very opinionated. She used to rank on my wife to me regularly while we were dating, not for any reason in particular but because she wanted me to see what else was out there and not get tied down so young. Never affected me. I mean I didn't like it, but I did what I wanted anyway. But then again, my parents loved each other and my dad was a super nice guy. I didn't have all the yelling, hitting, and being told I was worthless throughout my childhood.

Basically, not taking the blame for her affair by any stretch, but my lack of involvement in the wedding and in general I probably didn't tell her I loved her enough so while feeling abandoned by me, she was being offered scraps by POS. And she went crazy for those meager scraps, willing to anything as long as more of it was doled out. We'll definitely explore this in MC. I show my love by doing. But I don't say it all the time. It seems like she needs the verbal affirmation and she wasn't getting that from me.

Her IC said her falling in love was a reaction to cognitive dissonance. She started having sex because she was chasing the Pavlov pellets of praise, and once she started down that road, she couldn't reconcile what she was doing with her association of sex and emotional attachment so if she was having sex, ergo she must be in love. And so she committed to that love and did everything and acted on a way that someone in love would. And she fully believed she was in love. But as soon as the harsh light of day was thrown on what she was doing and she found out that he lied to her and he was a player, it showed her that it wasn't love at all - the mask was lifted - and she really was the kind of person who cheated on her husband, and that's why it really hit her so hard. And that's why he disgusted her so much and why she is now so disgusted with herself. She basically thinks she whored herself out to him (which she did). And she recognized right away that she didnt truly love him but had convinced herself and believed she had. So once she and then he was exposed, that "love" dissipated pretty quickly. And she freaked. Because she threw her life away for nothing. And in the pursuit of her own good feelings and ego boosts, caused immense pain to not only the people she truly loved (me and our kids), but also those very same people who really loved her and valued her, altruistically, without asking for anything in return. And that killed her.

But I think that's true for almost all affairs. They're not real life and the fantasy dies pretty quickly in the face of the real world.

Foley - Yes. Exactly. Didn't know where it came from. Just always knew she was a very giving person. And that's where the volunteering came from. I've posted on this before. She was always cooking for someone in the neighborhood who just gave birth, organized babysitting when someone had a patent in the hospital, etc. she was/is super mom. And she gets tremendous validation from it.

W

Happy that you two are back together to work on R. The first part of her explanation about her being seduced by POS was the part I could buy because it came right out of the Player's handbook.

However, the second part about her feeling useless is a little harder to swallow. There are still 4 children at home, 2 girls 19 and 16, 2 boys 8 and 12 (I believe). This is an awful lot of work and I can't see how she could have had time to feel useless. This concept seems to have been implanted in her head by the IC as what is known as "the empty nest syndrome". I have seen it in several WW here on SI. The only problem is that the nest isn't empty.

The second point I have a problem with is her statement that this wasn't about sex.

53)Was he better than me? No. But it was different. It was more exciting. New. It made her enjoy it more. She was powerful and she loved how it made her feel about herself during. She controlled him during.

Not convinced it wasn't about sex once she and POS got started.

Thirdly, I would be curious to find out what her interactions were with her (unnamed) friend who cheated on her husband and what role that played in her developing the mindset of an A.

marbou - Just to clarify, we are not working on R. I am looking to see if she is someone I can pursue R with. Right now, I just don't know. I also don't know how I feel about it all. I hope that she is and I am, but it's too early at this stage to tell. I've made that clear to her and she understands (I think) that there's a lot of work ahead before we commit to trying to R.

Regarding the section you posted, I know what it read like. All I can say how I took it listening to it. It was simply her being honest (and kind of defeated) as she described it when I asked her about it. Basically, I asked if he was better and she said no. But she did say she liked it. That weekend was really killed me and she cried nonstop the whole way through and hated herself for saying what she said but I begged her too. Told her I needed her to be honest, at least now to be honest. So she did. Said the newness was exciting and different. And she liked being in control because she got all his validation of her from it, which she fed off of. No, it wasn't about sex. Yes, she enjoyed it. Likely a lot. No, the two are not incongruous.

Don't know the answer to your last point - perhaps we'll get to that if we get to MC.

Maybe an issue for the future or maybe not, but if your estate planning arrangements leave your wife in charge of any significant assets, and particularly of anything which should ultimately benefit the children, it might be a good idea to rethink these arrangements sooner rather than later. Not on account of she did something awful, but on account of she's shown some extremely poor judgment on some extremely important matters.

Even if you R, there's no telling what future POS's will turn up. You certainly don't want them siphoning off assets you've left for her or the kids, and it will be a long time before you can feel confident that she's learned who to and who not to trust.

It could be argued that to revise your estate plans now would make her feel even more like you don't trust her. On the other hand, right now I imagine she doesn't trust herself very well, and might view this as what it is, you working to protect those you care about.

Actually many estate planning experts will recommend as a matter of good planning generally that assets go to s trust . The income off the trust goes to surviving spouse during life with the principal then being divided among kids. It preserves assets for kids. Trust can be revocable so that you can change the whole set up in the future if you D or if R is so complete that you don't want limitations left on her, you can just go back to everything goes to her. I am not a trusts and estates lawyer so I am sure I don't have it all correct, and there are dozens of possible variations that can be included, but the idea of looking at estate planning is a good one. Just get someone competent to do it!

One way to think of it is that whatever else turns out to be true, Mrs. W. has a missing or severely damaged POS detector, and the two areas where you most need a functioning POS detector are sex and money.

Such a weird day today. We've really been doing our own thing. She's like a different person. Not walking around looking shell shocked. Kids are in a good mood. I've been posting here and watching football.

So it's halftime now and my wife just came into the den and said thank you. I said for what? And she said for giving me another chance. And I started to protest and tell her that remains to be seen, etc., and she stopped me and said she knows. She understands. But 2 weeks ago when I left to my brother's house, she thought it was all over. And for her to be where she is now with hope, she said again she knows she doesn't deserve it and she's going to do whatever she can to show me that I didn't make a mistake and that she just wanted to say thank you.

And then she left. As I said, strange day.

"Waiting for the movie to be over and the lights to come up," kinda strange, huh?

I've said to my husband, a lot, "how did this get to be my life?!"

Walloped, you've got such a good head on your shoulders. Slow and steady wins the race.

Such a weird day today. We've really been doing our own thing. She's like a different person. Not walking around looking shell shocked. Kids are in a good mood. I've been posting here and watching football.

It is surreal. It’s like all of you are actors playing a part. It’s hard to believe how effortlessly you can do it until you realize it’s a part written especially for you that you had been playing for years before D day. This is why there is so much pressure on a BS. If they just let the affair go then everyone can get back to playing the part they know best.

cognitive dissonance

Pavlov pellets

Did the IC ever say anything about being "selfish" as one of the reasons for cheating and lying?

In your opinion, and what you think your wife's opinion, of cheating, based on percentages, if any?

__% of cognitive dissonance

__% of Pavlov pellets

__% not enough helping the wedding

__% becoming a MIL

__% new sex partner - variety is the spice

__% new sex acts - always wondered

__% getting old, soon no new guys will want me

__% I worked hard, I deserve it

__% I'll be careful, husband will never know

she committed to that love and did everything and acted on a way that someone in love would.

Like she planned to have a future with him, like a committed love person would? And she told all her friends and family that she found this new great person she is in love with, like a committed person does?

she fully believed she was in love. But as soon as the harsh light of day was thrown on what she was doing and she found out that he lied to her and he was a player, it showed her that it wasn't love at all

Did the IC mention anything what would happen if this guy was single, not a player at all, just a messed-up guy who had a crappy childhood who needs some Pavlov pellets like your wife?

Thanks for posting, Walloped.

I just want to reinforce what others have said... that this all takes a lot of TIME to get through. You still have our own journey of healing and growth ahead of you.

And, while your wife has seemingly achieved quick understanding of what happened in her IC, I caution that change takes YEARS. If in fact her MO for 42 years has been that she must be "nice" to get validation that she is worthy and loveable--which is conditional love, not real love--she has a lifetime of patterns living out of that belief.

Of course, the same could be said of all of us. We are all broken; we all carry our childhood into our adult years.

I watched my parents drift apart and wondered for a long time how to keep a marriage together, when each person keeps changing and/or reverting to dysfunctional patterns from our FOO.

And we all hear stories about how people in divorce go through all this pain and have such growth at the end of the process.

So I wondered... "How do you get all this growth, and still keep the marriage together?" And then I had the thought that each person in the marriage must be willing to hurt, and be hurt by, the other. That may seem strange but it makes sense to me.

It's a commitment to change and grow, together. Suffering and pain are part of that just as are pleasure and love.

If I could pick just one book right now to help understand relationships, it would be: "Getting the Love You Want - A Guide for Couples" by Harville Hendricks. Years of work I did on myself were summed up so succinctly in it. I recommend it to you and your wife, and wish you many blessings on your journeys.

Peace, LA

I'm just musing while my kids watch crappy TV, but it would be refreshing to hear that someone cheated because they wanted to rather than they had a bad childhood, were driven by things like compliments, need positive external affirmation, etc

Because the reason Wallup's wife cheated was because she wanted to. There are things that drive folks to do everything, we are the entirety of what we are due to experiences, instilled values, biological markup, etc....but that's what we are.

I also don't agree with the IC that the love was fake. Love is love is love. It's a biological instinct which drives us towards mates. There is a fake love because then there isn't a true love either. We all love people for reasons, it could be the way they look, the way the treat us, how the smell or how they tie their shoes. Love is impossible to quantify or qualify, and love is absolutely able to be formed because of the dopamine rush that compliments bring on. It's possible to love more than one person, but promising not to love another as you love your husband or wife isn't stating that it's not impossible - it's stating you're vowing not to.

Theoretically you could go to the same IC and state that her love for W is based on the same relative terms. Now it may be a different love, or even a deeper love...but it's still a lover's love.

When W's wife discovered that it was unrequited love then it was easy for her to fall out of love, because the basis for her love was built upon the bedrock of that love. She was still in love with him, which is why she called him from her sister's house.

Not trying to confuse W here, just throwing out my .02. Nibbling around the edges is kind of what I do.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned

That is why she called him. Sure she thought she loved him. She also loved her husband.

I also believe she never considered leaving Walloped.

Is Mrs W selfish? Hell yeah. A spouse has to be selfish to have an affair. To risk their marriage.

To risk their family unit being torn apart.

To risk getting an STD.

That is all pure selfishness.

But I do believe her upbringing played a part in her having the affair. She got played. And yet at the same time played Walloped.

Is her way of thinking messed up? Heck yeah. That is what IC is for.

All of the above does not mean she is not remorseful It is quite clear she is grateful Walloped came home.

Now patience is really required by both parties because both of them have to heal from this infidelity.

And Walloped needs to see just who his wife really is. Is she the same person he married? Is she someone new? Can they regain a happy relationship, trusting and loving?

And can Walloped truly forgive her for the affair?

Just remember Walloped you have all the time in the world to figure out the answers to all your questions.

HM

[This message edited by happyman64 at 9:21 PM, September 13th (Sunday)]