SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

there are a lot of people on these forums who experienced the pain of betrayal. this is a pretty hardened bunch. to see this kind of response should tell you something.

These responses do, in fact, tell a lot. But they tell Red Baron very little about himself and his wife. Instead, they tell a lot about the posters. They tell about the posters' unresolved pain and about how this pain is projected on Red Baron and his situation.

I don't find these posters hardened at all. Quite the opposite. I find them tragically fragile. Their pain is so intense and close to the surface, ready to break out at any time. I've been there and I have tremendous empathy for them. But I sure wouldn't look to them for wisdom.

Red Baron - if you are still here (and, frankly, I hope you are not) I encourage you to follow one of the primarily guidelines regarding advice on SI: take want you want and leave the rest.

Strength to you.

Double post. Sorry.

[This message edited by Walloped at 9:51 AM, December 24th (Thursday)]

RedBaron,

I am so sorry you are here. What a blow. Please, please take care of yourself. Please eat, sleep, exercise. See a doctor for sleep aids or anti-anxiety mess if you need them. I did.

Look, you've already gotten a great deal of good advice. And please try and ignore some of the harshness of some folks in their posts. Emotions can run high here. Still tough to hear though.

A few things I wanted to point out.

1) A polygraph test is a must. Frankly, I find it difficult to believe they only got together times in 9 months. My wife's affair last 3 months but her and POS had sex 20+ times. Be prepared for a revision to this. But as others have said, the poly is less about information and more about honesty and transparency. In order to do what she did for nine months, your wife had to lie to you through omission for that period of time. If you are seriously considering reconciling with her, then openness and honesty is a must and unfortunately you don't know if you have that with her right now. People who cheat lie. Simple as that. She may have noble reasons she tells herself like trying to spare you from pain, or it may be simple self preservation, but lying is common. Parking lot confessions are also very common.

2) Your wife did not have an affair. This is troubling. Many wayward spouses get lost in the fog of the affair with feelings of love, etc. she didn't. This was calculated. She wanted the excitement and thrill of high risk sex. I'm so sorry, and as gently as I can, this means that the thrill of doing this was more important to her than her marriage. She was willing to risk it all for this. That is very telling. It's a punch to the solar plexus to hear, and it's something I still struggle with frankly, but that's what it was. A decision to cheat, damn the consequences. I'm so sorry.

3) Remorse vs regret. Red - your wife is not yet remorseful. She is terrified. She got caught and now she might lose you. So she'll do whatever you want her to and whatever she thinks will help ensure you do not leave her. Remorse means understanding the pain that you are going through and that she was the cause of that pain. Remorse is not about her and her crying. It's about you. It's about doing whatever she can to help heal you. Finding herself and going to IC is important for her.. But making sure you get what you need is paramount.

4) I would stop going to marriage counseling. You are not there yet. You both need individual therapy. MC can come later.

5) Evil - No, your wife is not evil. Just very very selfish. Her personal need for excitement trumped everything else that was important to her. While some could not handle what she did, only what you can deal with counts. But of course the question is why wasn't what she had enough? Or if she needed more, why didn't she communicate that with you and instead looked elsewhere? That could be why some are questioning the number of times or the nature of this. How do you know it wasn't a full blown affair? Because she told you? Sorry, new rule of belonging to this club - don't trust and verify. Yes, the one person who was supposed to have your back in everything is now no longer trustworthy. Sucks. But there it is. A polygraph will help determine the nature of this and whether it was high risk sex a few times or something more.

Please take care of you. Keep posting. Unfortunately we've been there. You are not alone in this.

Red Baron, I hope you read what Walloped has just told you because he covered ALL THE BASES.

At this point all you know is that for whatever reason she is a 'thrill seeker", and sure did not worry too much about getting caught. The result of that was you seeing not a video or picture but the real thing of her and her fuck buddy.Really does not matter whether it was evil, selfish, or whatever you want to classify it as. WHAT MATTERS IS THAT IT HAPPENED>

As Walloped and many others have told you, reconciliation has to be based on the TRUTH, AND RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE NO REAL IDEA WHAT THE FUCK IS TRUE OR NOT TRUE.

other than TRUSTING your wife's words, which I believe even those advocates of the "softer' approach would say is not a great idea, there is only one way you have any chance to VERIFY to the best of your ability if either she just did it the four or five times in high risk manner, OR if they were fucking their brains out in much quieter and serene settings.

I BELIEVE THAT MIGHT MATTER TO YOU IF WHAT SHE HAS TOLD YOU IS THE TRUTH OR AN ABSOLUTE LIE.

If she passes a polygraph, as Walloped's wife did, you will take a major step forward in sorting this out.

If she fails a polygraph test miserably, then you have a whole new set of decisions to make.

if you don't give a shit if they were doing it daily for nine months, then don't bother with the test.

How you reconcile without believing you have the truth is beyond my ability to figure out.

good luck.

I usually don't comment that much on this site, but this thread stuck out for multiple reasons. I'm not going to call your wife names, but do I think what she did was evil? Yes, I do. I'm also going to go against the grain and say that yes, I think you should divorce your wife. Given your situation with no kids, separate finances, and physically seeing your wife having sex with another man, yes I think you should divorce and this is coming from someone who tries not to steer people in one direction. If this comes off has harsh to other posters, then I apologize. I do believe that posters should refrain from the name calling (I really on saw one post), but I do find it disturbing that when people point posters in the direction of D instead of giving them what they need to know to R, their lambasted for it.

Jbrent -

Frankly, our job here is not to direct a BS to D or R. That is their call to make. Not ours. Our personal opinions have no say here at all, and I question whether they should even be shared.

So what is our job? To help the BS get out of infidelity, offer advice, healing, and support. That's it. Now sometimes that includes identifying discrepancies in the WW's story, discussions about polygraphs, relaying our experiences to identify potential pitfalls, etc. But D or R is not our decision and the BS shouldn't rush into such an important one until they sort themselves and their situation out. People get lambasted for pushing and directing. And that is not what JFO is for.

Evil - No, your wife is not evil. Just very very selfish.

No, my friend your wife is so selfish that it took it to extremity of evil. Evil my dear friend IS rooted in selfishness. The antidote to selfishness is generosity. Evil does not come from generosity; from selfishness it does. So, yes, this selfishness of hers and the need for "excitement" on behalf of your degradation, emasculation, dehumanization and many more is the EMBODIMENT OF EVIL. It does not contradict the selfishness. The above statement is a kind of word and meaning manipulation and it's misleading you from the truth and thus granting you a very, very, bad service.

Her personal need for excitement trumped everything else that was important to her.

Her personal need for excitement is rooted in humiliating and degrading you by choosing to do the heinous act she deed not only so you can catch her but in all the cases she deed it. If she was allegedly only so very, very, selfish, then she also had un-endless opportunities to meet her low and primitive thrills and impulses elsewhere. No, it was not just about the excitement and her thrills, it was about adding some more chills by knowing you're right there and chills of how emasculating, humiliating and degrading this could be for you. It's the excitement she got from that power play, not just from her selfish needs for sex. That of course is a masterpiece of evil

Of course the question is why wasn't what she had enough? Or if she needed more, why didn't she communicate that with you and instead looked elsewhere?

Most probably because if she would communicate her needs of control the excitement of degrading and humiliating you would be gone,

RedBaron

Everything in life is forgivable, if you want to forgive it. In my opinion for your sake, one day forgive. The question of reconciliation is not a must or requirement, it's partly a risk management and that given the fact you want to do this. However, risk management requires a lot of self-honesty and truthfulness. If you are not willing to admit what you've had, that's not risk management. That setting yourself for a path of further threats and potential disaster! By the way, personally I believe there is nothing one can’t forgive or let go. Even what she did! Eventually, it would be possible to reconcile. First, look if you want or are able to, then do the probability test and risk management. Don't fall into the emotional lovey-dovey trap. Right now approach it as if you were declared a war. Your wife right now is not your friend! By her doings she declared a war on you. So, yes even the bitterest enemies reconcile, but not but being blind, mute and deaf. Neither should you!

With everything else mentioned in that post I have no problem

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 12:16 PM, December 24th (Thursday)]

Really? The last few posts here are letting the OP know what will need to occur for R to happen. I rarely see this amount of detail given for people who possibly want to D. In fact, whenever I do see posters that come here in this forum that say they JFO and they want to D, they are usually inundated with "take your time" and "don't make rash decisions" posts. Let's be honest here, this site to me is very pro R and other posters have eluded to this as well. I don't necessarily think there is a problem to that, but I do think it shuns posters who have a different opinion on what should happen when infedility is revealed.

Back to the OP, I do believe that maybe it would be better mentally and emotionally for him if he just took himself out of the environment that is causing him so much pain as opposed to waiting months trying to get the truth out of his wife,

Her personal need for excitement is rooted in humiliating and degrading you by choosing to do the heinous act she deed not only so you can catch her but in all the cases she deed it.

Nonsense once again.

I would say 99% of those in affairs never ever thought they would get caught. Excitement is about being with someone new, for whatever reason.

It is amazing how little thought the WS ever gives to getting caught and the aftermath consequences. They always feel no one knows, no one can ever find out, we will never be caught.

Very, very few affairs are done to humiliate the BS. In fact, most affairs have nothing at all to do with the BH or BW.

So what is our job? To help the BS get out of infidelity, offer advice, healing, and support. That's it.

I agree with this. The first step is to stop the affair, get out of the infidelity of it all.

If needed, snooping tips so as not to ever be lied to again. Staying calm, eating right. The BS needs to realize they are in a form of PTSD and that is not to be taken lightly.

Really? The last few posts here are letting the OP know what will need to occur for R to happen. I rarely see this amount of detail given for people who possibly want to D. In fact, whenever I do see posters that come here in this forum that say they JFO and they want to D, they are usually inundated with "take your time" and "don't make rash decisions" posts. Let's be honest here, this site to me is very pro R and other posters have eluded to this as well. I don't necessarily think there is a problem to that, but I do think it shuns posters who have a different opinion on what should happen when infedility is revealed.

And you are 100% correct with your observations and I say this as someone that although did not recommend neither to divorce nor to reconcile but was merely pointing to what should be acknowledgedso he avoids whaever path he choses

I would say 99% of those in affairs never ever thought they would get caught. Excitement is about being with someone new, for whatever reason.

Once again not nonsense at all but you reading selectively what you want and looking away at what you don't want to see. Your statements are irrelevant as to the nature of what I say and once again they only contribute to the excitement of power and control as the cheater thinks he's so sophisticated to do it. Whether he gets caught or not is irrelevant. Once again as mentioned above the approach that mixes the horse with the rider is what's nonsense.

Very, very few affairs are done to humiliate the BS. In fact, most affairs have nothing at all to do with the BH or BW

Once again and read everything I wrote whether the intention doing it is active or passive is irrelevant and right everything thing the WW does is only about himself and the dehumanization in degrading the BS spouse as a result to a mere tool in it, even not a being, a non entity actually, is the exact banality of evil as to the humiliation of the BS. Never heard a BS that didn't feel humiliated through the affair; never heard of a BS claims, wow, that was so empowering; and the claim he isn't is rewriting truth and reality

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 12:11 PM, December 24th (Thursday)]

Since the word evil has been used in this threat, something close to evil is when the affair continues after Dday, goes underground and the WS will not end the affair, that is close to evil.

Closer to evil is when the WS talks highly, glowingly and in a positive way about their affair partner. When they talk in a positive way about the affair.

That is evil and that is really throwing it in the face of the BS.

When a WS really shows remorse, does everything required for R, including honesty, self honesty, and real disgust at what they have done, that is not evil.

At that point it is up to the BH or BW if they can R or not, that is a very individual choice.

Since the word evil has been used in this threat, something close to evil is when the affair continues after Dday, goes underground and the WS will not end the affair, that is close to evil.

Closer to evil is when the WS talks highly, glowingly and in a positive way about their affair partner. When they talk in a positive way about the affair.

That is evil and that is really throwing it in the face of the BS.

That is evil too and once again there is a whole range, variety and degree of evil behavior. All of them are evil

When a WS really shows remorse, does everything required for R, including honesty, self honesty, and real disgust at what they have done, that is not evil.

First, remorse rarely occur so fast; beside there are many people incapable of remorse at all; once again no contradiction in what was said. Until then, trickle truth for example, sometimes for months and even years for fear of losing the perks and entitlements is evil; even if magically this would be the case it is still not contradicting being and perpetrating the evil before. However, thinking remorse sets immediately and all WW's tell immediately the truth is ripped out of reality and is sugar coated delusion

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 11:09 AM, December 24th (Thursday)]

All BSs have a choice, just like you did. I noticed even though your wife was remorseful, you still are divorcing her, your choice.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind about all of this and are very opinionated on the subject of evil and affairs.

Each BS should look at both sides of R and D, and for each BS, there are all kinds of considerations to take into account.

I hope RedBaron will make the best choice for his life and future.

All BSs have a choice, just like you did. I noticed even though your wife was remorseful, you still are divorcing her, your choice.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind about all of this and are very opinionated on the subject of evil and affairs.

There is no diagreement at all between me and you about the nature of that statement. Yes, having done a thourough risk management evaluation which by nature includes researching everything on that topic, I made my decision. I indeed looked at both sides and made my decisions. However, those are mine decisions and nowhere in this thread I stated what my decision was unless you mentioned it now. However, I also did not made a statement and recommendation for TRB whether to divorce or to reconcile. As everyone one here I am talking here from my perspective so he can get also a different point of view as everyone else. It is especially important because I walk some middle path between those who immediately shout divorce or those who shout reconciliation and especially in term of the fact that as mentioned above the atmosphere here is VERY PRO RECONCILIATION so people should hear all options and be pointed to all aspects especially as I also don't say what they do. I don't advocate neither to reconcile nor to divorce for others.

Each BS should look at both sides of R and D, and for each BS, there are all kinds of considerations to take into account.

I hope RedBaron will make the best choice for his life and future.

Once again I completely agree with you. It's only up to TRB to decide about what is good for him. Only he can take those decisions as only him himself know himself the best. I think hearing different views, theories and so on is not bad. It widens the horizon and will only contribute to better decisions for him.

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 11:35 AM, December 24th (Thursday)]

Your wife and your relationship sound so much like my husband and our relationship. Everyone thought we were the perfect couple, I found out on Dec. 3rd and was completely blindsided, everyday is a struggle... I'm so sorry you are going through this, we both never expected to be here. The roller coaster of emotions are so hard, especially this time of year. Take care of yourself. They say it gets better... Just take it one day at time.

Really? The last few posts here are letting the OP know what will need to occur for R to happen. I rarely see this amount of detail given for people who possibly want to D. In fact, whenever I do see posters that come here in this forum that say they JFO and they want to D, they are usually inundated with "take your time" and "don't make rash decisions" posts. Let's be honest here, this site to me is very pro R and other posters have eluded to this as well. I don't necessarily think there is a problem to that, but I do think it shuns posters who have a different opinion on what should happen when infedility is revealed.

Because D is very straightforward. File and move on. R takes years of work. And it is important to know that one has a safe partner to work with before even contemplating R, hence the advice regarding what is needed for R to have a shot at success. The comments about not making rash decisions are here because it is good advice. The shock and trauma a BS goes through is acute. And it makes rendering any decision difficult without a calm and clear head and knowing all the facts. So people recommend taking time before making a potentially life altering decision.

As far as being pro R, well our hosts at this site have done exactly that. Not all marriages can survive this kind of thing and frankly most fail, but it is up to the two members of that marriage to make that determination. Not us.

Other comments - please keep in mind the purpose of JFO is to provide help to the BS. Calling his wife evil is not helpful. Telling him she intentionally want to degrade and humiliate him, besides having no way of knowing this, is not helpful. Shouting in a thread and not providing advice or support is not helpful. Describing acts in a graphic manner is not helpful.

RedBaron - the voices can get loud here and drown out the purpose. Sorry. Sometimes, folks who are still in pain and who shouldn't be "pain shopping" on JFO post as a way to vent their anger at their own situation. I am not that far from my own DDay as well. Still, this forum saved my life, so paying it forward I guess. Anyway, I've dealt with a lot of the loud voices in my long assed threads - feel free to look them up.

I would encourage you to stick around. There are a lot of good folks here (holiday season might be slow) and we've all been through this. Again, the goal is to help you and support you as best we can as you try to navigate the shit storm. And if some posters get offensive or get to be too much, know that you can ask the mods to ask folks not to post on your thread.

I know it's tough, but hoping you find some peace during the holidays.

Best.

I wouldn't put any weight into the actual results of a polygraph. The value here is if she believes the thing works. Then you make her a deal that if she comes clean now you will consider reconciliation. Then you might get what is called a "parking lot confession". If she does open up then you have enough real information to decide how you want to proceed.

You will never get a truly qualified polygraph examiner - they are very rare and they all work for law enforcement. If she is anxious to take it you can't know whether she's anxious to prove that she's telling the truth or very confident she can beat or discredit the test.

Anyway, why do you care about any of this? Let's repeat that you don't have kids and you don't have any special financial entanglements. What's to think about? Divorce her and start you life over with a good woman.

Other comments - please keep in mind the purpose of JFO is to provide help to the BS.

Right and not telling the truth is not helping but jeopardizing him.

Calling his wife evil is not helpful. Telling him she intentionally want to degrade and humiliate him, is not helpfu

No, ignoring what happened is not helpful, denying and suppressing what happened is not helpful; truth is always helpful; it is ignorance, denial and suppression that are not helpful

besides having no way of knowing this, is not helpful.

What has to be known is known and it is more than needed to understand the true nature of her evil.

Shouting in a thread and not providing advice or support is not helpful. Describing acts in a graphic manner is not helpful.

Nothing to do with stating the truth. All the points of mentioning her being evil were followed by detailed explanation and in depth advise. Spreading sugar coated naivity is not helpful. When one goes to a doctor one does not want him to be too optimistic (sugar coating the truth) and one does not want him to be pesimmistic (saying nothing helps). One wants the doctors to be realistic (and this about showing the things as they are; it's about the truth) It's the same approach here.

And yes, graphic descrition are crossing the boundaries of discussion. Completely agreed on that

[This message edited by ImGoneByTheDown at 12:28 PM, December 24th (Thursday)]

Her intention was to do something different, cross boundaries and hopefully not get caught.

If her "intention" was this, then they would have fucked each other in their cars, or a hotel room.

I believe evil intentions are purposely done to hurt others. She did NOT have an affair to purposely hurt her husband.

Because they fucked practically in front of their unknowing spouses, this IS evil! To have sex in situations where you may be "caught" by strangers, is one thing. But to have sex with your spouse basically in bed with you and the AP is beyond sick, it's evil.

edited because my fingers are so angry about this!

[This message edited by SpecialK at 12:35 PM, December 24th (Thursday)]