SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Also - I don't expect to change a satisfied MH's mind about having RA'd...I also don't expect to change a BS's mind who's hell bent on cheating...

What i (and I'm sure Sewardak) is trying to do, is to provide a platform to support and encourage those BS's on the fence...the ones that haven't been to IC yet...that are in too much shock to utilize healthier coping mechanisms. Maybe they'll read this thread and it will replace the green light they gave themselves after reading the other threads Sewardak is referring to. Someone needs to offer a counterpoint to that thread...

Truth,

You're the bomb.

I just realized that's my "hang up". It's just not right period. Rules are rules. I'm not saying it's not understandable, etc.

It's just not right.

It's hard to watch people justify it period. We WS and MH hold each other very accountable and if a WS came in telling the punch in the face story, we'd of exactly said that - leave or have them arrested end of story. Your actions were wrong period and you should not have done that.

OMG thanks for giving me the WORDS finally.

I feel this boils down to-

Is it ever acceptable to have an A? Is there any justification?

My answer is no. We have seen ws' come on here and talk about all sorts of marital issues- dead bedrooms, emotional abuse, physical abuse, financial infidelity, workaholics, substance abuse etc. They are all told I'm sorry you had to go through that but its not acceptable to have reacted with an A! Why did you allow yourself to not only betray those you say you love, but yourself.

All the above could be seen as violations against the marriage vows, why is cheating the one thing it seems that completely wipes away YOUR vows. Because I don't remember making my vows contingent on him keeping his, if he didn't keep them then I have the ability to legally end the contract.

Also, how does one healthily find validation and self respect? WS' for some reason seem to think its in a vagina or at the end of a penis, they come to SI talking about needing to feel desirable and wanted, how they felt alone, ignored, never enough, we all say, you need to find a healthy way to build self validation and respect, you find it in honesty and integrity and doing the right thing, giving to others, stop being selfish. Then the bs comes on here and states the same thing and its suddenly acceptable have their own A to feel these things.

We bs' aren't special, we are in pain, we have gone through trauma and we need support, but the only thing in this world that can justify cheating cannot be because the other person cheated first. You either can or cannot ever justify an A. I don't care if you state on dday that the marriage is over and go sleep with the local football team, if its over for you then have at it, again not healthy in any way, but if your relationship is over its over. But if you have to have a revenge A to stay in a marriage, then you need to ask yourself why you need external validation to feel good about yourself?

There used to be some pretty big voices on this board who had the madhatter experience who would tell you just how destructive their choices were, not just to their ws but to themselves.

You know either a person is allowed to do whatever it takes to make themselves happy and take away their pain... or they're not. Bs' aren't any different to ws' in that.

TSMF,

If the victimized spouse was punching the aggressor in an attempt to protect themselves and flee, no problem. It's self defence. But if it's a daily punch in the face then the victim punches back later for sport then yes - I would consider both abusers. Would I understand what would motivate the victim to lash out? Of course, just as I would understand the motivation behind an RA....still doesn't make it a healthy coping mechanism. Understanding the thinking behind an RA doesn't mean I'd advise giving into that thought process.

Here's the other part for me. Reading outright justifications of the RA is maddening to me. Seriously. It's what you told yourself to make what you choose to do to make it "right". Just because something you think in your head sounds right and defensible, doesn't make it so.

I learned that at the age of 21, in rehab. I had made this plan all in my head and the minute I shared with the group (it was a therapy session) and the minute the words came out of my mouth, I realized it was a really bad idea. It had sounded so good in my head, thought I had it all figured out, but no, I was wrong.

Your head can be a dark and dangerous place to play indeed.

smoken - I'm glad you found clarity and am thankful for the opportunity to engage in the conversation with you. I certainly respect your convictions and I know that you speak from a place of your own resounding experience.

What I would say to others - and speaking from my own experience - while I had a very resounding sense of right and wrong.. I also had/have an equally strong sense of justice. When those two values intersect, it can be very conflicting and there aren't any easy answers.

Yes, there are BSs that take the opportunity they believe their WS's affair has given them and use it carte blanche as a free pass. But there are also many BSs that are truly suffering at this intersection of moralities. For those BSs there are no easy answers...and focusing on what others believe is "right" is simply not helpful or necessarily even relevant. The problem is not morality...it is a matter of priority of that morality - and that's a really hard reconciliation.

For those of us that have traveled further on this path, I think we can do a greater service to fellow confused BSs by checking our own morality - focusing less on the rightness and wrongness of the behavior itself - and instead try to help those BSs figure out exactly what it is they are trying to achieve. Had a poster not done that long ago with me, I am sure that I would have at some point become a MH/WS throughout these last 12 years of hell. The gift that the poster gave me was not in strengthening more morality but in helping me to resolve that inner conflict - and that was a rather gracious and deeply appreciated gift that served me well in all my healing.

RomanticInnocence,

Yes yes yes. Thank you for your eloquence. I miss those voices you referred to. Their absence is felt - especially when this topic comes up...

The point is not all people myself included, have what’s deemed as an RA, for malicious purposes. I think the terminology is all to encompassing, as is the following judgement about people who have acted in such a way. Some people are technically MHers, but only because the paperwork hasn’t been filed yet. Some have moved on because it is what’s best for them, but left the door for the cheating spouse to win us back, except we have been UPFRONT about where we stand. So then it really boils down to... some people have “RAs” for just that...revenge to drive the knife into the cheating spouses heart... others just do it because we haven’t decided if we are moving on, and deserve to be loved and treated well. Since my D wasn’t finalized i suppose you could call my actions an affair legally... but if i has told my exw in no uncertain terms that her actions had consequences and part of those consequences were that my love was not the same and i no longer felt committed to our M, am I really having revenge? The only difference between my situation and someone who officially ends the marriage before seeing other people is that i left the door to my ww open to try to win me back. would it have been more correct of me to tell her instead...”don’t even try we are done” before going out and exploring my options? She wanted me back, and i wasn’t so sure. I thought deserved better, and still gave her a chance. Would i have been more righteous to effectively slam the door in her face ASAP before going out on my own? Like I said not everything is about revenge just because that’s the only term. And not everything is an affair. Transparency changes that in my mind. She opened the relationship to explore her options but didn’t have the courtesy to give me the truth and transparency. I did... it was never about inflicting pain on her, rather discovering what i truly wanted after being dealt a life changer. That’s just my 2c

@nicenomore, I feel that is what many are saying. That it is an affair. We feel the word "revenge" used in regards to whomever is having an affair is superfluous. Although, some do have an affair just for the malicious intent they have towards the BS.

Sister- i can see That, but my question then is...does it mean that since it’s an “affair” that it’s the same level of deceit, lowering ones self respect, immorality, evil etc etc because of the technical paperwork? Because the magic filing of divorce has some all encompassing vindication for it being acceptable vs the same despicable action the ww took in the first place? I beleive it the old M is over for all intensive purposes, whether by decree of a court, or not yet, it’s not the same thing as an actual affair during the marriage...

I'm late to this thread but it has me thinking. There are consequences to having an A which include many, many possibilities. Part of the thinking that BS's encounter during the shock after d-day is the idea of revenge - we just want our WS's to feel what we feel because it is so completely and utterly devastating. It's like wanting to hurt the person who hurt your child. Does it make it right? No. Is it understandable? Yes.

It's what you told yourself to make what you choose to do to make it "right". Just because something you think in your head sounds right and defensible, doesn't make it so.

Isn't this the same line of thinking our WS's have when they give in to having an A? I know for my WS there were a lot of mental issues coupled with cognitive dissonance that helped him go right over that edge. Nonetheless, it was his decision.

An RA is different in that the M is no longer sacred and the vows were broken. That's something one person in the partnership decided unilaterally first and what follows is part of the consequences of that very ill-advised decision. It's not "right" but also not equal. It may be equitable however.

See I was the type of husband that would have never have cheating during a marriage. It was a promise or vow that meant my word. Call it a justification or whatever but once I found out the wife was screwing around on me, that promise or vow didn't mean shit anymore. It was an open marriage at that point.

I miss them too sassy, I have much respect for their point of view!

Randy- so does that mean she made you do it?

WH told me I should have A "so we could call it even."

"the M is no longer sacred and the vows were broken. That's something one person in the partnership decided unilaterally first"

I think this is ONE of the points that we'll never agree on and has been discussed here. for me, my vows were still intact.

for those wanting to feel loved, worthy, etc and jumped right into an affair, how did that relationship provide that? did you go out in public, profess your love for each other, build a bond before anything got physical? if not, isn't it just using the other person to make yourself feel better? just sex?

i completely understand wanting to be with a new person. but what about the process of building an authentic relationship with them first and how can you do that while still married? it's as trashy as what our WS did.

to me, this would just add to the feeling of unworthiness and that is the feeling that I feel BS should be warned about.

it might help for 3 minutes but what about afterwards?

Is it an affair if there is no longer an expectation of fidelity in the marriage? Just mho.

I guess why stay married then?

Randy- so does that mean she made you do it?

She didn't make me do shit. I chose to ONLY AFTER I found out I was in an open marriage. My situation might have been a little different- remorseless WW and all. I probably should have just divorced her right away, hindsight being 20/20. I don't really blame anyone for how they choose to handle things at that point. Moral high ground arguments don't mean too much to me, but for some they may be useful.

Ahh, justifying bad behavior. How many ways can the marriage vows be broken, and how many ways did (general) YOU break them.

What about the WS that begged and pleaded for years for more or better sex only to have the BS ignore them? Yet, we say it is not a reason to cheat.

If a spouse blows the family savings on unecessary things, is it then justifiable for the other spouse to spend the same amount on stuff on a credit card? How does that affect the future of the children?

If the RA AP is married do we just shrug our shoulders and say “oh well, their families are justifiable collateral damage”?

Like it or not, an RA is never self defense, so not a justification for behaving badly because somebody else hurt you.

If you want to have an RA, go ahead, but stop acting like you deserved to do it, man or woman-up and admit it was an affair and unjustified. You had a hissy fit because you were hurt, but it doesn’t make it less of an affair or less wrong.

I hate this holier than thou bullshit. If you don't have an RA or RONS then fine, good for you, but please spare us your high horse. What people do after they discover their marriage is open is not for any one to judge. Just make sure you don't fuck a married person when getting your revenge. Then the only victim, if they care, is your spouse, and honestly fuck them.