SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm just saying that for me personally WW3 would now erupt. EVERY thing that you did, with who and exactly what it was that you did (after consulting with a lawyer to make sure that if it was the truth I could not be charged or sued over whatever I had to say) and make sure that every family member would receive the packet with proof and every member of your church and work place plus everybody on your FB friends list would also receive it.

This might destroy what was left of me but hell that wouldn't be much anyway. I do not fight nice.

Not saying anything constructive would come of it just more destruction but I was in a war and I did destruction very well then, I don't think I have forgotten how.

Like I said "even I don't like me when I fight".

JMO YMMV

^^ then I would have made the right choice to leave.

Whoa.

If the sex in question was something you asked for but were denied, but then your WS gave it to their AP - you have a very good point.

The more important aspect of your post IMO is what to do if the WS is not ALL-IN when it comes to restoring a modicum of trust and winning their BS back. If that's the case, rather than argue about it and cause a lot of fuss, just start divorce proceedings. If that doesn't wake your WW up to what she is about to lose, then the action is already in progress.

As a WW, I try to stay out of these threads, mostly because I recognize the loss of agency my BH is feeling regarding our sex life. For me personally, sex with my BH was god-awful for years before my A (and in no way an excuse or to blame, simply fact). Sex with the AP was vanilla and boring. In the time since, my H and I have ramped up our sex life - more often, way kinkier, and way better.

I am a survivor of sexual assault. Retaining the ability to say no is of vital importance to me, be it from a stronger person overpowering me to someone saying do it or get out. I agree that the BHs here deserve to be their WWs sexual Plan A, and that the vast majority here are not advocating force. Some are slightly advocating coersion (and there have been tons of threads debating whether coersion counts as force). I truly think that if a WW is not willing to give, then it is up the BS to decide if the lack is something they can live without. It is different than bringing someone flowers or writing love notes. Very different. But I think that a conversation with the WS will clear up these issues.

Again, this is just me personally, but there are things I will not do, but I will not do them with anyone. I would not give something to the AP and refuse my H.

Just to clarify at the time this happened I HAD to move over 1200 miles away to literally not kill people. I consider that what I had to do was worth it so that my children continued to have at least 1 parent alive and out of jail to raise them.

I lost so much time with my kids that I will never get back and consider my ex a horrible parent based on results BUT she was able to be there. I had PTSD from years before I ever met my wife and had no idea what was happening inside of me. The diagnosis is recent but the events that caused the PTSD started when I was 11.

I was taught early that the ONLY way to fight was to win and to win you did whatever was necessary. After years of the I learned to fight not just to win THIS fight but to win all the fights after in JUST THIS ONE FIGHT!!! (I learned most of that phrasing from a sci fy book)

Not excusing my behavior just explaining why I am the way I am.

Just to clarify at the time this happened I HAD to move over 1200 miles away to literally not kill people.

It is a shame that you did not learn to handle your anger without violence/threat of violence.

Well this thread has been fun.

Just going to start off with: if you make only shitty choices, expect only shitty outcomes.

I honestly have 0 sympathy for someone who thinks taking it in the ass's degradation level is dependant on your partner. It either is or it isn't, and you're either okay with it it you're not. Doesn't matter who's dick (or strap) it is.

The BS can make absolutely any demand they want and it's not abuse. Full stop. The yelling is abuse, anything physical is abuse, but the content is not. It's not abuse because the other party has an infinite number of options they can take, just not every choice will give them what they ultimately want and the ones they do want now come at a cost. that's it, just because the outcome of most of your choices are undesirable, it doesn't make it abuse. By that standard I could frame basically my whole day as a series of abuses inflicted on me.

Feel like it wasn't a choice because you'd be destitute if you didn't agree? To fucking bad, all around. You think your BS wants to support your ass? They're still going to end up paying regardless of which shit sandwich they choose to eat, with far less choice then what you had available, is that abuse?

There are plenty of people all around the world taking it in the ass to keep a roof over their head, in most cases it is legitimate abuse, real victims, with real hard decisions, and real big shit sandwiches they have to eat everyday. They end up there through no fault of their own, simply trapped in a abusive society level cycle. To even pretend that you're somehow in the same boat is insulting.

It's your body, it's your choice, and they're your consequences.

[This message edited by Skadu at 12:20 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

I get that, but by doing what you described will only make you look unhinged. I mean, no offense, but that’s crazytown. People will just feel sorry for her, and it will generate whispers of, “geez, no wonder she...”. To me, that’s a loss.

Do you really want that?

ZenMumWalking, actually anger and the threat of violence is a good tool if you keep it under control. The problem came with the pain beyond anything I had ever experienced before and the knowledge that she did it on purpose. I also lost my son? years later and that has been the only pain even close but I know he did NOT do it to hurt me so maybe that's the difference.

When it is under control (but not letting anybody know that) it is extremely good to help get people like stalkers or boy friends who don't understand "get the F out of my life" to leave the lady's alone. I used it to bully the bully's so to speak. That is part on my KISA thing.

(yes I KNOW it is only aluminum foil and a colander but what the H) I did this kind of thing for years and didn't have to worry about being the bad guy. Not for every body but it worked kinda sorta for me for years. I am starting to work on my anger now but it is a little late.

Anger is an emotion, violence is a behavior. One does not necessarily imply the other. We all feel anger at times. We do not all always respond with violence.

You said yourself that you missed time with your children. Wouldn't it have been better to have had additional behavioral possibilities to choose from so that you could have had that time with them?

[This message edited by ZenMumWalking at 12:34 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

Just a thought. If a WS is remorseful and committed to R, they're sorry for what they did. They don't want to do that anymore. They're embarrassed and ashamed of the actions they took.

Forcing the WS to repeat the behaviors of the A probably isn't real beneficial to healing. And if the WS WANTED to continue doing those things, s/he would presumably have stayed with the AP.

We all react differently to all these things and we all have different stuff that led up to the mess of things. In my particular case, I'm sort of a control freak (codependent type) and I HATE that I lost control over the situation. I think some of the idea that the BS gets to set the rules for R has a lot to do with needing to regain some sense of control over our lives. It's not easy.

They don't want to do that anymore.

Which means, stop f**king other people, stop lying to everyone, stop destroying another person's family and life. It does NOT mean, stop being a sexual person, or stop being a person who writes poetry, or other things that your BS legitimately wants/needs in the new relationship.

I'm sorry, but this is just a crap reason/excuse to me. There are a million harmful/hurtful things that a WS does to a BS during an A that need to be stopped. And a few things that a WS can do to help a BS heal from the damage. We don't get to say "well, I did that with the AP, so now it's tainted and I don't wanna do it anymore", that's a real convenient excuse to try to manipulate the BS into compliance with some new arbitrary set of rules. The BS gets to make those rules, and if your WS did/didn't do something with the AP, it really doesn't matter, whatever it was, it SHOULD HAVE BEEN yours (as the BS), sexual things, financial thing, emotional things. All those things were given away without your consent, in effect, stolen from you. Now the WS gets to say "well, I stole that, so now I don't feel like doing it anymore, so.. Guess your SOL"?? Come on, we'd NEVER stand for that on anything from an A with the exception of sex, that's just completely counter to how we suggest WS's help their spouses heal.

Come on, we'd NEVER stand for that on anything from an A with the exception of sex, that's just completely counter to how we suggest WS's help their spouses heal

.

I agree with that. Honestly, there is a lot of logic to be applied here:

1. If I don't want to give my best sexual self to my husband, but I do want to give it to the AP? What does that really say?

2. Coerced acts are not generally what we are talking about here. Noone should be coerced or raped/assaulted, or really treated without their sexual dignity. A coerced act isn't going to heal a BS anyway - if you have to take it forcefully it's the same as not getting it at all. It means that you still have not gotten #1. It should be that your spouse is lavishing you with the best they have to offer, whatever that is.

I didn't do any of the acts with that are on the list that circulates here every time the discussion is had. However, I have done them with my husband numerous times. Not because I was in fear of losing something - but because I wanted to. I wanted to explore each other and learn new things and be open to building a new sex life as part of what will become our new marriage. I wanted to do those things for him and for me. If there is no desire to do that, I am not sure the person has it in them to reconcile. I can see how a divorce would be the inevitable result. HOWEVER, if I had a husband that was demanding those things, talking to me like I had to "pay him back", that would be less desirable to me. Just like I should want to do these things to help him heal, he should give me the chance to offer them. I don't know how to explain it better than that, but in that scenario it feels like I have kept my own sexual power and dignity, and it feels to him like I genuinely want it. He doesn't have to question it, he doesn't have to coerce it. If a BS said "You have to give me flowers every week" as a condition of Reconciliation", it never can really come from the WH's heart, and it never can really be appreciated by the BW because she told him to do it rather than him doing it on his own.

Trusting someone that you are going to love them above all else really means your WS should WANT to make it up to you. Should want to help you heal.

I don't think it's the conversation of making it right or helping heal, it's sometimes the way it's discussed that crosses the boundary from "helping them heal" to "doing things they don't want to do".

Regardless of the topic -- sex or anything else -- if you're a BS and your WS is something less than enthusiastic about doing whatever it takes to help you heal, continuing the farce of reconciliation is just as much, if not moreso, on you than it is on them.

They're showing you who they are. You're choosing not to believe it.

I appreciate hiking's insistence on the word "lavish". That's it. That's it exactly and entirely.

If you're not being lavished and you're remaining in the marriage, you're making the choice to accept less rather than face an uncertain future.

(And I get it. I did that, accepted too little, had to fight with proof in hand just to have basic facts confirmed (never offered) for way too long. It takes awhile to get out of shock and uncertainty. It takes an effort to assert your own best interests to the one person who should've always had your back. You can forgive yourself for needing time to get your head on straight and remember that you're the only advocate for your best possible life that you'll ever have.)

"if I had a husband that was demanding those things, talking to me like I had to "pay him back", that would be less desirable to me. Just like I should want to do these things to help him heal, he should give me the chance to offer them. I don't know how to explain it better than that, but in that scenario it feels like I have kept my own sexual power and dignity, and it feels to him like I genuinely want it. He doesn't have to question it, he doesn't have to coerce it. If a BS said "You have to give me flowers every week" as a condition of Reconciliation", it never can really come from the WH's heart, and it never can really be appreciated by the BW because she told him to do it rather than him doing it on his own."

exactly!

how is affair sex your best sexual self though? it's an act, not a form of true intimacy.

Ah, but I didn't say Affair sex, I said giving the best of myself sexually.

I don't have a situation where anyone is looking at it from an "act' perspective...a pound for a pound (no pun intended). I didn't do acts with the AP that I didn't generally enjoy with anyone else. And, I didn't give porn style sex either. But, When I say "best of myself sexually", I mean it in the true sense of not even with comparison to Affair Sex...without Affair Sex even in mind. Here is what I mean:

Making sure that I am turned on often, and initiating. Making it very known that he is desired by me. Experimenting, not dialing it in all the time. We still have maintenance type sex sometimes, but I try and be creative again like when we were a new couple. Talking about sex and learning what he finds exciting. Dressing up sometimes. Being spontaneous - changing up where, when and how. Showing him my love by giving him special favors and treats.

I have really enjoyed making this a priority in our relationship. I never thought our sex was lacking before, but we've been together for decades. Our bodies have changed and our routines hadn't.

My h wouldn't want want the AP got in all reality, he's getting so much better. And that should be the goal. But, I stand by the fact if all I was hearing was I had to do it or walk home, it just can't be done in the same spirit. That heals neither party and it only makes both people feel worse.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:51 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

Coerced acts are not generally what we are talking about here. Noone should be coerced or raped/assaulted, or really treated without their sexual dignity.

To my understanding, this exact situation was what the original post was about - the one from OT that was t/j and made into a thread here.

I'd ask everyone to read the thread in OT, to better understand the original context. It's really not fair to take Lieswearmedown's post, which was shared in a specific context of acknowledging sexual abuse and assault, and misrepresent her this way.

SD And HO

I'm fairly certain, when someone says some variety of "gave them their sexual best..." (This is going to be general, not everyone is a stereotype) they mean a up to that point. And they been up to that point because there is usually a large amount risk, time, and effort involved with even just getting to the point of having a lame ass quicky. It's compounded when the partner is also issuing excuses at home to avoid expending that same effort with their spouse.

So yes, in those cases the WS had given their sexual best to the AP, because even if it was just a lame ass quickie, they moved heaven and Earth to make that quickie happen.

You can't excuse what happened in reality with what you feel happened at the time. It doesn't matter, and is usually insulting to hear.

[This message edited by Skadu at 3:11 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

t/jx2

Edarcy I just wanted to say that is one of the best attempts to put this thing into words that I have ever read.

end t/jx2