SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I love really good blueberry pancakes. Especially with fresh blueberries, real butter, and real maple syrup!

OK?????

I think Hikingout hit the nail on the head. For betrayed men, the issue is desire. "Does my WW desire asshole more than me?" The acts -- swallowing every day instead of every other day, etc. -- these are merely bellwethers of desire.

The narrow and specific circumstance that rankles the heart of many BH's, even BH's who did not experience this directly, is where a WW, pre-A, professed to not enjoy a particular sexual act, an act that is fairly vanilla, like swallowing, but who then did that act with a gusto during the A. To men, this is an indicator of desire.

Speaking personally, I would not want a sex act from my wife it were not from her authentic desire for me. But if I were faced with this circumstance, my heart would lead me out of the marriage if she could not see it in her heart to show me that same level of desire, via those same specific acts.

This issue will not be resolved because most men and women are coming at it from opposite perspectives.

Correct me if I am wrong, but most men see sex and all the acts listed here as inherently pleasurable, and can't imagine why they won't be the same for women.

Most women have grown up with the threat of sexual abuse/assault, and watching out for sexual violation has become an ingrained reflex. So most women can feel desire only when they feel safe and valued. Also, BJs, swallowing and anal are not pleasurable to many women.

However, I do get the frustration BHs feel when their WWs perform an act with APs, but don't want to do it with them. And talking about it, suggesting sexual counselling is fine. Where I recoil is when it is presented as a demand, as a right to use a woman's body for pleasure.

But a genuine question to those who say a WW should do anything for R: If she did not perform those acts with AP, would you still feel that she should do them as a condition for R since you want them in your marriage?

Ephimera, Quick answer is NO! This is only if she actively (how else would it happen) did it with the AP! I mean seriously how can you do it (whatever it was) many times with AP and then say no to BH because YOU don't like it??? I was coerced. NO because you kept going back!!

This is about that singular situation where YOUR wife gave MORE of everything to satisfy the POS and isn't willing to do that for you!

I had a pm session with a female WW and she explained that she had submitted to being sexually abused during the affair and was so grateful that her BH did not require this. I told her I understand and I would not require that in her case but I would have to divorce her because of it. I simply can not allow my wife to have given a part of herself to AP that I would never experience with her. CAN'T do that to myself.

Now she says that she looks at that time as a very very bad time for her and needed to heal. I can understand that intelligently and get it but emotionally I will always wonder if in that small private part of my wife's heart that I am NOT ALLOWED TO OCCUPY if she is thinking "Damn that was a wild time and I miss it but I'll never let my husband know or SOIL THE MEMORY of her and her POS AP!!

I read a post on a different web site and there was a cheating woman on there who said something like this "I had an affair awhile ago and we had great kinky sex but I'll never tell my husband because then he would want the same kind of sex. I believe that some people get the great sex and some don't and my husband doesn't" I think that single post is why it is so difficult for me to ever let this go. I mean is that what my wife thinks????

edit to add; This does NOT include any sex acts with anybody BEFORE the relationship with me just afterwords. While I would like those things in the marriage I understood that that was the bargain and will keep it. The bargain was voided when she did it OUTSIDE the marriage with somebody else!!!

JMO YMMV

[This message edited by Candyman66 at 11:40 PM, September 27th (Thursday)]

This discussion happens often and comes up in the strangest of places. In my opinion it is because of generalizations and significant pain and trauma experienced by members including myself.

There is no common ground so there will never be agreement between the parties that engage in this debate. I also feel a number of those in the debate do not encounter in their own life what is debated otherwise they would be posting in divorce and reconciliation and the subject matter would be moot.

First, you have women and more specifically betrayed women that may have been victimized by sexual abuse and they have been abused by their wayward husbands or spouses. They do not want themselves or another woman to be sexually coerced into having to do things with her body that is harmful or in some cases perhaps unwanted. They want to be treated with respect, dignity, and cherished. They do not want to be physically or mentally manipulated into doing sex acts that are harmful.

These ladies want to make love and not be coerced to fuck in physically or psychologically harmful ways.

They have had sex in some cases used as a weapon against them and perhaps have been the victim of intense abuse. In a number of cases they have been harmed in brutal ways in cases of sexual assault, rape, or sexual abuse. The infidelity by a wayward husband is also sexually abusive and degrades them and causes intense psychological harm.

Other members that are usually betrayed woman in the debate see the harm first hand that coersion for sex has caused friends, family, and colleagues in the work place. When women are unwilling forced into sex and sexual activities they do not enjoy because if they do not perform what is demanded there will be harsh repercussions such as divorce this leaves them traumatized and broken.

The other group involves wayward husbands that have suffered sexual and psychological abuse at the hands of their wayward wife. Their wayward wives abused the hell out of them and left them mentally and emotionally void. Sex was weaponized by the wayward spouse and many enjoyed the power and harm inflicted on their husbands in a cruel and sadistic fashion. Frequency, intimacy, and sex acts they never did with their husbands they engaged in vigorously and with enthusiasm for the piece of shit affair partner that was a bullshit merchant. The APs merely gave them words of affirmation in order for the wayward wife to drop her panties. These betrayed men have been eviscerated and emasculated. They gave all of their life energy to the family and marriage for much less than the AP that uttered a few nice words and was treated to sexual experiences the betrayed husband longed for and worked his ass off to get only to be denied. This causes serious health issues and results in emasculation.

In trying to heal these men need and desire to feel loved and respected. One way this is shown is by a vigorous and bonding sex life with their wife. They desire the dopamine and oxytocin in order to bond with their wayward wife. (It is called reconciliation.)

If their wife tells them she only wished to do those behaviors with the AP or that was a special act reserved for her scrape book of memories with the AP then the berayed husband is emasculated again, suffers another serious set back in reconciliation and is most likely done with his wayward wife's sorry ass.

These men are speaking their truth that they will not be plan B. These betrayed husbands will never be robbed again by their wayward wives and a piece shit that comes in with nothing invested in the marriage and receives everything they longed for in terms of intimacy and a fulfilling sexual relationship.

These men speak their truth when they state that they will not put up with a wayward wife giving more to a bullshit merchant or AP than they do with the man they state they will honor, love, and respect.

A man that has had his world blown to hell by a wayward wife must set boundaries to protect himself such that he no longer will put up with being psychologically abused or emasculated.

When these betrayed husbands speak they often speak of sex acts because the intimacy they longed for with their wives was given to another. In order to attempt reconciliation these games of manipulation by the wayward wife must be stopped and rightfully so.

The preceding group of betrayed wives because of the abuse they have suffered vehemently oppose any type of suggestion that a sex act should be done out of obligation.

The betrayed husbands know that because of abuse they have suffered sex and making love must be restored and withholding will result in divorce.

Therefore, you have a strong group of ladies stating we have been hurt by sexual assault and abuse by others and possibly our wayward husbands so sex for us needs to be about intimacy, protecting us, making us feel safe, and in a form or fashion we enjoy. Basically they wish to make love.

The betrayed husbands have a need to make love with their wayward wives in a fashion that restores them and heals the earlier abuse she put them through by degrading and emasculating them. They need to feel like men again. They want to make love and do so in special ways that do not harm their wayward wives but restore the love and connection that was eradicated when she gave her all to a bullshit merchant for a few words of validation.

The wayward husband needs to feel she is all in and committed to rebuilding the marriage. It is my opinion that they love their wayward wives or are falling back in love with them and do not wish to hurt them or do things the wayward wife does not enjoy. They want a dynamic sex life that the wayward spouse also enjoys and a marriage better than before. The do not want to be emotionally abused. They want the emasculation to stop, and their wayward wives to help them heal. Therefore, they develop boundaries to protect themselves in reconciliation.

Lastly, there are posters that may be trolls, harm their spouses, or demean then by engaging in acts of violence performed under the guise of sex. If they are real they harm their wayward spouses such that I do not see acts of love but extreme acts of vengeance in the form of emotional, psychological, and physical abuse. These posters polarize this debate because their pontificating if trolls or abusive behavior if they are real shocks us all and leads to projection about coercion of sex acts and the harm it would cause.

I think when the generalization that sexual acts should not be coerced is carefully analyzed nearly all members agree and see the harm in doing so.

I also think that the generalization that if a wayward wife engaged in sex acts or of a frequency with the AP that are enjoyed by her then she should do them with her wayward husband. I think this view is also widely supported.

When the terminology of "put out or get out" is used things get polarized.

Rather than look at this from such generalizations or at a macro level I think it is much insightful to look at an individual level.

When we go here and focus on individual couples, I think for a marriage or reconciliation to be successful the betrayed wives must be protected, respected, loved, honored, and cherished. When intimate most people care about the enjoyment of their partners and do not wish to harm them or coerce then into sex acts they are not able to accomplish without harm. I feel this is what we would find if we looked at individual couples.

If we looked at the betrayed husbands that are successfully in reconciliation as couples you will find the men trying to heal sexually and regain performance. You will find tremendous amounts of communication with the wayward wife and sex tailored to restoration of intimacy and rebuilding of the marriage.

The men are not asking their wayward wives when one on one in the bedroom, "You and the AP did this now we will. You and the AP then did this act now we will. You refuse here are your divorce papers."

I think you will find at the couple level ther is considerable communication and significant work at the restoration of intimacy.

What the wayward husbands will not tolerate is being subjected to further abuse, emasculation, and treated as less than a bullshit merchant or AP. Where there are questions or desires regarding sex acts, desires, and frequency they are worked out for reconciliation to continue.

I propose that the members post at their individual level or as couples in reconciliation.

I think we can all agree individuals should not be coerced into harmful sex acts that hurt them physically or psychologically and betrayed spouses should be treated better than the piece shit the wayward spouse committed adultery with.

[This message edited by Ripped62 at 12:15 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

I have not read any responses and I don’t think that it is that difficult. If a spouse cheats and does not want to do the same sex acts with their marital partner that they did with AP... That is a very acceptable stance for them to take. No one should do something they don’t want to do.

However, you should take your paycheck and tell your spouse to go back to the AP and enjoy their life without you. If my spouse wants to have great sex with AP and not me then they can go pound sand!

I would not even entertain staying with someone who would do this. I just don’t understand why someone would want to stay and get sloppy seconds. If my spouse performs exciting sex with another man why would I stand in her way and stop her from enjoying her life? I would rather go find someone else who will do those things with me.

Why would a guy want to stay with a woman who treat him like this? I don’t think people should be coerced for sex it’s wrong. But I would never stay with someone who would treat me this way. I would rather be alone.

Now she says that she looks at that time as a very very bad time for her and needed to heal. I can understand that intelligently and get it but emotionally I will always wonder if in that small private part of my wife's heart that I am NOT ALLOWED TO OCCUPY if she is thinking "Damn that was a wild time and I miss it but I'll never let my husband know or SOIL THE MEMORY of her and her POS AP!!

Exactly how I feel. Coupled with the unreal pain of "the last time she did that is was with AP". A reminder I got on a minute by minute basis until it was resolved.

I read a post on a different web site and there was a cheating woman on there who said something like this "I had an affair awhile ago and we had great kinky sex but I'll never tell my husband because then he would want the same kind of sex. I believe that some people get the great sex and some don't and my husband doesn't" I think that single post is why it is so difficult for me to ever let this go. I mean is that what my wife thinks????

I was wondering if anyone was going to bring this up, but yes, I've seen that website too, and it's not a "single whisper". There are dozens/hundreds of wives and WW's on there saying some variation of that. That their "wild sex" days are behind them and their H doesn't get to know that part of them. Or it's reserved for the AP. Or that they had much better sex with the AP.

But you know, I didn't really need to find that site to know this. Experience with women tells me this; I knew it when I was a young man; the more into you a woman is, the more attractive/sexy she finds you, the more you'll get in bed. It's just "common male knowledge", or at least it was throughout my circle of friends in HS/college. The girl who likes you might give you a BJ, the girl who really likes you will swallow, the girl who loves you gives you anal or a threesome with her best friend. And let me tell you, it's a far more reliable indicator of interest than anything a woman might say to you. "Oh you are such a good man, everyone would be lucky to have you" was a slap in the face for me, "My god your hot, let's go back to my place" was the opposite, a woman who really liked me and wanted to have a relationship. Is this always true? I suspect not, because "always" and "never" are words that very rarely apply. But it's the best way that I ever determined to find out "how does she feel about me". My wife during her A was full of "I love yous" and "I love our life together", but our sex life was awful. I listened to the words and tried to ignore the sex, thinking I was being an educated and sophisticated man, able to hold the two things apart. Yeah, well, I shouldn't have. I should have looked at her actions (sex drought, uninspired sex, plenty of restrictions) and thought "something is very wrong". But no, I said to myself, "You're being a teenager", women age, things change. I should have listened to my teenage self, while I was getting weekly sex, the OM was getting so much sex he couldn't "perform" anymore. My "teenage" mindset was right.

I would not even entertain staying with someone who would do this. I just don’t understand why someone would want to stay and get sloppy seconds. If my spouse performs exciting sex with another man why would I stand in her way and stop her from enjoying her life? I would rather go find someone else who will do those things with me.

Neatly summed up.

Why would a guy want to stay with a woman who treat him like this? I don’t think people should be coerced for sex it’s wrong. But I would never stay with someone who would treat me this way. I would rather be alone.

They wouldn't/won't. At least not me (and some of the other posters here). It's a deal breaker, no less important to me than going NC with the AP and telling me the truth about what happened.

Someone pointed out that (and I have not verified, but can believe) most of the "against" posters here are BW's. If that's true, it makes sense, and of course I appreciate why they would feel that way. Their WH victimized them with sex, he weaponized sexuality by stepping outside the marriage. And shoot, I'm guessing that rewarding your WH with some hot steamy sex isn't exactly high on the list of things that most BW want to do. And I'd recommend they don't!

If someone started a thread about having WH's sign post-nups, I could see how that might rub me the wrong way, IF I read that thread as implying that I, a BH, should be signing a post nup. But that's not what this thread is saying, it's not that BW's should be installing a sex swing, it's that WW's should. And that's completely different, the WS, no matter their gender, has weaponized their sexuality (assuming a PA) and used it to terribly injure their BS. Now it's time to fix it; it's time to use that power for good rather than to hurt. It's not the time to say "nahh, you know, I don't really like using that part of me to make others feel good".. Because that's not the truth, it's that you don't like using that part of yourself to make your BS feel good. As long as "others" are the AP, it's just fine. And that situation is untenable, it's at the tops for the most important things for me in a marriage. It's the only exclusive thing for a marriage; everything else my wife does for me I can find elsewhere, friendship, emotional intimacy, her contribution to the household, her sense of humor. All of it, I can find that in other people and remain in the marriage. But not sex, that's the one thing that's actually held apart, if my wife goes off sex, so do it. If my wife decides she doesn't want to play guitar with me anymore, well, I can get a new bass player. But if she decides no anal sex for me, I never will have that experience again. And then decides "yes for the OM" well.. Seems like he's a much better guitar player than I am, so, while it pains me to say this, it's time for a D so you can find a new guitar player and I can find someone who likes to play the bass with me.

If my spouse wants to have great sex with AP and not me then they can go pound sand!

I would not even entertain staying with someone who would do this. I just don’t understand why someone would want to stay and get sloppy seconds. If my spouse performs exciting sex with another man why would I stand in her way and stop her from enjoying her life? I would rather go find someone else who will do those things with me.

Why would a guy want to stay with a woman who treat him like this? I don’t think people should be coerced for sex it’s wrong. But I would never stay with someone who treated him like this.

Exactly.

You cannot negotiate desire.

You cannot demand or expect your WW be as aroused by you as she is/was with her lover.

You either accept your placement in her hierarchy, or you make yourself a priority, and find a women who will have genuine love and desire for you.

If my spouse wants to have great sex with AP and not me then they can go pound sand!

I would not even entertain staying with someone who would do this. I just don’t understand why someone would want to stay and get sloppy seconds. If my spouse performs exciting sex with another man why would I stand in her way and stop her from enjoying her life? I would rather go find someone else who will do those things with me.

I don't think that anyone, even all the BW's posting here, are disagreeing with this.

The problem comes with the one-upping and coercion aspects.

1) Why stay at all? For kids.

2) If one doesn’t want to be treated like a whore one should not become a whore. Waywards bring disrespect on themselves.

I think everyone is in agreement. Sex should not be coerced. If a wayward wife gives more to the AP than the husband kick her sorry ass to the curb. From my perspective you have every right to kick any wayward spouse to the curb because of infidelity and no one has the right to tell you otherwise.

" If one doesn’t want to be treated like a whore one should not become a whore. Waywards bring disrespect on themselves."

wow. just wow..

so it's a punishment then.

There is nothing wrong with punishing the guilty.

Edited for clarity: I am not suggesting that sexual coercion is acceptable as punishment. But I have so sympathy whatsoever for the “plight” of cheaters.

[This message edited by PlanC at 10:45 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

There is everything wrong with punishment in a marriage.

There is everything wrong with punishment in a marriage.

Well then we may as well close up the board and go home. Because 90% of what we talk about as the "right steps" to take following an A are "punishment". 180, file for D, cut off sex until you feel like it again, haul their ass to a poly, make them write a timeline.. Yes, it's done for a reason (to make the BS feel safe and in control of their lives again) but, let's not sugar coat it, all this reeks of punishment. I don't see how "having sex that makes you feel good again" is held apart from the other "punishments" that are doled out on a WS. In fact, it's the only punishment on that entire list that even remotely pleasurable, sometime intensely pleasurable for the person being "punished".

Let me say, if I were the cheater and my W came to me with a choice of "sexual punishment" or the "normal punishments" for an A, it would take me about a nano-second to choose the sexual punishments.

" If one doesn’t want to be treated like a whore one should not become a whore. Waywards bring disrespect on themselves."

I'm not sure what's so "wow" about this statement. It's true, don't be a whore and you won't be treated like one. And yes, WS's do often disrespect themselves, mostly women, but some men too. But no, I don't think that this means that the WS should be treated like a whore; however, at the same time, it's pretty near impossible to try for the "virgin Mary" routine; "I didn't really want to sleep with him" thing that a lot of WS's (including mine) try coming out of an A. You were acting like a whore, let's call it what it is, and no, you don't get to act like Mother Theresa in bed with me anymore, because, speaking for myself, I want my W to act like a whore WITH ME. I think that many men would echo that sentiment, so much so that there are lots of "urban dictionary" phrases you can look up about this in particular. I want my wife to be as sexually free with me as anyone else, in fact, more with me than ANYONE else. I think many feel the same.

I don't think anything that has happened since DDAY have been punishments by my husband. My actions have had consequences this is true, but my husband is not my punisher.

Reestablishing a new sex life is definitely not a punishment. Some of it comes from true desire, and some of it comes from knowing he needs to see my desire. Both of these things come from my heart.

I think there is only a small gap that some of the BH's may not see when they are debating with those who are pointing out the differences in what some BH's are saying versus what others are saying. (Honestly I think many of the things I have said and what the "righteous indignant BW's" have said are the exact same thing, yet I am praised for it)

ANYTHING - that the wayward does to heal the marriage will only have a chance at success if they do it on their own. If you tell the WS to bring flowers, and they bring flowers, there is no satisfaction in that. If they bring them out of the blue because it came from their heart, it's a much bigger impact.

Telling a WS they must to anal, swallow, initiate, etc...when they do what they are told, isn't that a hollow feeling? And if it's done under duress, that doesn't make you feel like a desirable man. This is what the argument is about. What my H needs is to see my desire is great for him.

I think about everyone who has spoken on this thread is saying the same thing - that yes, the WS should help their spouse heal. If some of that damage involves sex,(and it almost always does whether it's a BW or a BH) then the WS must find ways to address it. But, a wayward who can't come up with these things? Must be told or coerced? Yeah, good luck to both of you on that. You are never going to feel satisfaction from what they do, and they are never going to learn to stop being selfish. Telling them "do anal", okay I will do that so I can live here with you. How romantic. NOT!!

I am not saying my husband hasn't made sexual requests since DDAY. Heck, he's always had different requests. But, when he makes them it's exciting, it's sexy, it's loving. It makes me all the more game to participate. It's not to punish me because I am an whore who has no dignity. I don't think we could reconcile if that were his attitude.

We just need to remember the goal is to heal both spouses and to eventually build a new marriage. Think about what that path truly looks like. I am generous as I can be towards my husband so that he knows beyond a doubt that I do love him. Because I do that on my own my husband feels it. He still may in the end divorce me, but it won't be because I withheld from him after having destroyed him. I truly think the difference in the BH's that talk like it's more like a punishment are the ones who after being destroyed, their WS never stepped up, and the anger and hurt grew and grew. It makes complete sense as to why they might sound like they resorted to trying to make it happen. All the "Righteous women" just see how misguided that was. So, put me in that group. These are the situations that probably should have just gone to D sooner.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:24 AM, September 28th (Friday)]

I have a different perspective than most, as I was a virgin until marriage. I've only been with one woman in my life, and that's all I plan to be with. That being said, if my Fww had done things with others that she wouldn't do with me, it would have been a deal breaker for our R, for 2 reasons.

1. I would think she was saving that sex act for AP, and by doing it with me she would be tarnishing her memory of it.

2. She would then have experienced something I had never experienced, which goes completely against everything we agreed to while remaining celibate while engaged. We were both virgins and wanted to wait to explore sex TOGETHER. Her refusal to do it with me after doing it with AP would have been too much.

These things being said, I would not have tried to coerce her, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted her to do something against her will. Her refusal would be indicative of her state of mind, and if she wouldn't have willingly done this act, it would show me that she really didn't care about my feelings.

OK my problem is this (disclaimer this is something I'm dealing with from long ago. I never had a chance and got destroyed) I don't lie! It's a point of honor with me so how can I ask her "Pretty please with sugar on it but really it's ok if you don't want to" and divorce her if she doesn't.

To me if it is a "do or die" situation and I don't tell her this I'm not being fair to her. She needs to fully understand that SHE has done this!! She set this whole "demand" situation up HERSELF!! HER decisions, HER actions, just HER and NOW she says she "can't do this" for whatever reason is just so much BS!!

Now a nod to all the Lady's out there who have brought your own experiences to this discussion. I apologize to you for not realizing or considering your own bad experiences influenced what you had to say. That is simply a failing in me but even at my ripe old age I am still learning!

The other thing is I was hurt a long time ago and never dealt with it other than figuring it was all my fault, remember I have just started dealing with this within the last couple of years and never heard the advice that it wasn't about me!While I believe this intellectually however I have not really come close to internalizing this. So for the last approx 38 years it has been my fault (because you know, according to her, everything always is).

Yes I so empathize with all of you lady's and your feelings. That being said since I have never done these things I still want what I want. In reality no she doesn't have to do a damn thing with her body but if she for whatever reason just can't then no matter how much I love her it just can't happen.

Now a very nice lady poster here emailed me and explained that her AP had a very degrading sex life with her and that she was very broken at the time and she was so glad that her BH was able to let that part go because she needed to heal so she could be a safe partner and couldn't go back to that life. I said that I understand and I do, I also told her she had a very STRONG BH and I was not nearly as strong and that even though I could understand I could never accept that there was a part of her that she had willfully given someone else and wouldn't share with me. That there was a part of her soul where I was not allowed.

Just can't do that.

JMO YMMV

"the BH's that talk like it's more like a punishment are the ones who after being destroyed, their WS never stepped up, and the anger and hurt grew and grew. It makes complete sense as to why they might sound like they resorted to trying to make it happen. All the "Righteous women" just see how misguided that was. So, put me in that group. These are the situations that probably should have just gone to D sooner."

exactly. I had something else typed out about neanderthal thugs and just divorce then but this is better and nicer.