SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I agree with OIN. Well thought out and written so I can even get it.

I know you are giving her the credit for the changes, but IMO you aren’t giving yourself enough credit for be willing to accept the changes and let your marriage heal. You are both in a better place now

. In my case I knew we would never be better. Although it couldn’t have been as good as I thought for her to do what she did. I guess that goes back to your thoughts on communication It’s too bad she didn’t take that route.

waitedwaytoolong, you recently said in another thread that

how can the marriage be better after an affair now that the

marriage has been tainted by a WW affair.

i know of BH's that needed to divorce their WW before they

would attempt recovery. they needed something to make

their WW's feel real consequences and be held accountable

for their cheating.

one BH divorced his WW then let her stay in the basement until

she could support herself and move out. eventually she worked

her way back into their bedroom. he refuses to marry her.

she is content to keep the status quo and they are full time

parents and spouses.

he needs the security to be able to dump her if she ever

backslid again. she understands this need of his.

Old truck, I do question how it can be better, especially if it was good to start. I will say I think I always allow for leeway as I know there are cases like HT, which he eloquently wrote, that after work it was better. I like to think I don’t believe in absolutes.

I could have had the situation you described. In fact it was pretty much what we had after the first year when I became semi human again Who wins in that? He in this case doesn’t sound healed or happy, and she lives with an ax ready to swing. My EX would have settled for that, but who is that fair to? I don’t want that kind of relationship.

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 6:54 PM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

I don't think the state of detente described by OT is a "good marriage" by any definition.

The few times I've seen a marriage morph into something better after infidelity, it was in each case a true exit affair, where the cheating spouse was driven to a point of despair by something awful the BS was doing: alcoholism, etc. The BS wakes up on the brink of losing the marriage and sees his or her own dysfunction reflected in the marriage disintegration.

WWTL,

I have heard of other cases where the BS divorces the WS, then dates around, including the WS. Only ever heard of men doing it, not women.

Typically those guys are looking for a middle ground between "all is forgiven" and complete dissolution. They can't get past the A, anything short of divorce is unfair to them. On the other hand, they had some good things with the WW, why should they throw that away?

Divorce is an extremely unhappy time for many, many people. Many people struggle to find new relationships that are the equal of the old, especially if they have kids in tow and a few years under their belt. So for them, "the new" is never going to equal "the old" anyway. So maybe they're finding the best they can of their choices.

Striver, I wonder if its more of the male perspective why we lose/are unable to regain 'total' feelings for our waywards throughout R, because of the loss of our manliness to another man, feelings of inadequacies etc.

I would like a females perspective on this as well, if possible. Whether they carry the same long term feeling in R of hurt, even if it diminish over time, because what they perceive as their lack of personal ability to keep/satisfy their spouse.

Although, having taken all that time to type this, reflecting on my own situation, it was more of the 'she did', rather then the 'why she did'.

Whether they carry the same long term feeling in R of hurt, even if it diminish over time, because what they perceive as their lack of personal ability to keep/satisfy their spouse.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't take personal responsibility for my WH's maladaptive coping strategies. I can't be a smorgasbord of new pussy. In fact, I can never be "new" again, so in terms of "external validation", nothing I could offer was going to fit the bill. I don't carry ANY of that bullshit around with me because none of his twisted up internal turmoil was really about me.

^^^^^^^THIS!^^^^^^ I will add even though I thought I was a confident, independent person before d-day, it did take the wind out of my sails for awhile after d-day to feel that way again. But not very long. I realized pretty quickly who fucked up in this marriage with infidelity and it had nothing to do with me.

I hate to say that it is a male thing, but it is more common, let's say, for BH to feel this need to level the playing field in an R attempt.

Typically those guys are looking for a middle ground between "all is forgiven" and complete dissolution

Yes, ^^^ this seems to be true.

Eta: remember the member who intentionally slept with the WW's friend? And told her? Ah, yes. We've seen this behavior in all its (toxic?) glory.

Two little tidbits I read (and you may have too since we all pour over the same stuff online).

One therapist who counsels BH in particular (is that a thing???) said that due to their strong maternal love and connection, BH struggle more than women realize with how their wives and girlfriends view them. He believes it's some maternal transference that naturally occurs. Idk, but it did stick with me. You cannot deny the love a little boy feels for his mother and how she forms his identity.

Then I also read someone saying that because men struggle more with their emotional life--acknowledging it, discussing it, nurturing it--this acting to even the score is due to the need to "act not talk it through." Men fundamentally use actions to meet their emotional needs, and I for one admit that women frequently use words. Look at me, for example. My posts are long and winding; try living with me! Lol. My family will say, "Oh, no. Here she goes." So idk, maybe men--in the absence of 'talk' doing anything to relieve their hurt--reach for action? Food for thought.

I hate to say that men and women are vastly different, but I also hate to ignore certain truths that seem to be right in front of us. Genetics? Learned? Honestly, I'd write an essay, publish it, and travel the world sharing my knowledge if I knew the answer to that one.

Carry on.

Good thoughts from everyone.

Freud would be proud.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:57 PM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

whether you have overly proprietary feelings regarding your spouse, whether you can allow your WS's problems to be theirs and not yours,

I thought marriage was a exclusive relationship, communal feelings are not allowed. It was sharing not only the good times but the bad too. And the infidelity is the WS problem affecting the marriage. Does the BS ignore it ?

Most WS wander around, preaching a fog of forgiveness and let us move on... Assisted by comments like the one above.

Refuse "R" and suddenly a different person is on display.

[This message edited by btdi at 11:07 PM, September 8th (Tuesday)]

Did you read the entire post, btdi? Or did you just cherry-pick through it looking for things to be offended and outraged about?

In context here....

Or you can go a third way and realize that your pain is about YOU. It has to do with your relationship with yourself, whether you feel like YOU are good enough or capable enough, whether you still have lingering fears of abandonment, whether you have overly proprietary feelings regarding your spouse, whether you can allow your WS's problems to be theirs and not yours, whether you're dependent upon others for validation and emotional succor, whether your relationship with the universe insists upon justice, etc.

Our pain is ours. The source of it is not what happened to us, it's how we exist in relation to that happening. The blow itself severs us from connection to our primary person. The residual pain lingers when we try to reconnect with an unsafe source. The REAL safe source is ourselves. And when we're whole again, it's just sharing, not reliance.

Shall I go back through this thread and count up how many times I've said that D is a completely valid option? Maybe you'd like to dig through my 3600 posts to see how many times I've said that "no WS is owed a second chance"? You'll find plenty, I know, because I write that frequently.

The problem under discussion is NOT whether people should R or D. It's what happens when they do choose R and are still "eating the shit sandwich". My position on that (if I haven't made it clear enough ), is DON'T EAT THE SHIT SANDWICH. If that means D, it means D. If it means spending time communicating with the WS, so be it. If it means reexamining what we're doing for ourselves in healing, that too. If it means checking in on our true feelings to make sure we're being honest with WS... even that. There are myriad discussion points regarding this topic, none of which demand R but rather assumes R in order to be germane to the topic at hand.

wwtl, I didn’t want you to think I bailed on the conversation when my husband popped in and spoke so eloquently.

Do you think you would have ever had the communication you have now if the affair never happened? Were either of you close to opening up to each other?

We have actually had this discussion. I can’t tell you how many times I came close to talking to him, only to chicken out in the long run. My own issues played too much of a factor in what was going on.

I think communication would have looked a lot different, but once the ball got rolling we could have got there. The marriage wasn’t really “bad” to begin with. We both just had some pretty major things we were afraid to talk about.

Honestly, you can what if this to death. The fact of the matter is that I chose to take the route of an affair over any others so that is what we are dealing with. It’s a Catch 22. I’m proud of the person I’ve become, but not proud of the choices I made to get here.

WOES, your husband did an amazing job going through the process of how you both got to where you are now. You are very lucky, or maybe smart, to have married him in the first place. The route you took was painful, but you ended up in a good spot. It’s also great that you both have chosen to give back and try to help others get to a path that might work for them

It’s just too bad my EX didn’t have the strength to let me know just how forgotten she felt at the time of her affair. I’m sure that is the biggest what if ever. Kind of like in the movie unfaithful where Diane Lane has a vision where instead of going up to the other guys apartment, she laughs and smiles and gets in a cab never to see him again. How life would have been so different than the shitstorm she created.

Striver, the scenario you describe just doesn’t appeal to me. I was half in half out for 5 years. Getting out of it was heartbreaking for both of us. No way I want to jump back into the swamp of a half assed marriage

One often hears "Men cheat to add; women cheat to replace." A generalization to be sure, but I wonder if that concept has any bearing on this issue. Speaking personally, I think I'd have a different path of recovery if I thought my cheating wife was enjoying another man instead of me, as opposed to in addition to me.

I don't know if that makes sense, but the point is the nature of the emotional injury may be as important as the extent.

I would like a females perspective on this as well, if possible. Whether they carry the same long term feeling in R of hurt, even if it diminish over time, because what they perceive as their lack of personal ability to keep/satisfy their spouse.

My XWH cheated with younger women. I'm in my 40s, they were in their 20s. I'm not in R, but in the short time I was still with him I experienced the female equivalent. The "I'm old and used up" "no longer young enough to be attractive" "can't compete with young bodies" stuff. I could never have believed that he found me attractive again. I can believe that other men find me attractive, but not him.

Waited, I read your profile and it's pretty disturbing. Actually, it's horrifying to me. You seem to have your stuff together today though and that says a lot about you.

On topic: I lived the concept you've described in the OP. WW had a 6mo A with a married coworker. We had 3 kids, 5, 3, and 18mo. I stewed in rage for roughly 2 years post d day. We got some shitty MC that basically facilitated blame shifting some of her choices onto me. The thing is, our M was pretty damn good pre A. Post A, not so much. I stayed with her because my parents divorced when I was a child and I eventually lost contact with my father. Even thinking of the possibility of that happening to me was terrifying. I will say all A type behaviors ceased and I was basically love/sex bombed which would have been awesome if I didn't feel so much disgust for her. I did whatever I wanted and I wasn't very nice to her. Cordial would be the word to describe it. She thought things were getting better. Our M was completely different after her A. We still had sex, nothing like before though, it was completely different in a not so good way. We did family things together, but I spent far less time with her overall. I stopped wearing my wedding ring and saying I love you. Gifts and cards stopped later.

Then I had an RA with an ex that was always trying to contact me. Told my WW about it beforehand and rubbed it in her face for a year and a half. WW accepted it. Really, what could she say to me that wouldn't be completely fucking hypocritical? I had an A a few years later that lasted 5 years, 6 months of long distance. She graduated from grad school and moved to the east coast. AP issued an ultimatum that I leave my WW and move with her, I balked, and that was that.

I had planned on staying until the kids were older, ideally over 18, and then D. The problem is there's never an ideal time for D. Some issue with the kids, family, cars, jobs, or the house would delay filing. I approached her with D papers around year 15 post (her) A. She was completely blind sided, which totally surprised me. I told her of my A and answered any questions with complete, brutal honesty. I honestly thought that would kill any desire she had to stay with me, but it didn't.

That's when her real change started to happen. She's been completely honest, remorseful, etc. Now she's the model WW. She's been to seminars, read books, podcasts, programs - you name it. She approaches life completely differently now. We're now 20+ years dealing with this shit. The nest is recently empty, but there's a grandchild and retirement accounts in the mix now. Again, never an ideal time to D. But, like old truck said, the ax is ready to swing at any hint of bullshit. My WW knows this too. I will say, I don't know how anyone says their M is better post A. That whole notion seems borderline delusional to me. I have definitely "settled" for her.

This is a really good thread, a lot of it resonated with me. Thank you wwtl for posting. I feel like I'm quietly suffering while my WW thinks things are great. I know its up to me to talk about my feelings but I don't know what the hell else to say and it doesn't really help. Talking about it now I can see my wife wants to help me but its more and more clear that this pain I feel is just up to me to endure.

'Don't think about it' my IC tells me, well I do. 'How can I help' my wife asks... well you can't. 'Focus on who she is now' my IC says, sure but still have mind movies of what she's done. I enjoy my time with my wife, I love her and she is my best friend. Although I enjoy spending time with her, still I suffer the torment of what she's done to me and our marriage. She can't help me and so I suffer quietly and alone.

I don't know how anyone says their M is better post A. That whole notion seems borderline delusional to me.

This whole statement seems rude and dismissive to me. Not really borderline though...

HT, the honest truth is when I read posts like the ones you've made in this thread I wonder who you're trying to convince, those reading or yourself, that your marriage is better than before. And please know I'm saying this from my perspective, it could be I simply can't relate to what you're saying or I could be perceiving it incorrectly. There are guys here at SI I can totally relate to, waited/ramius/thumos and others, and some, like you, that I can't find much common ground with at all. It could be because I don't know your back story. Regardless, I truly wish I could see things as you do and maybe you can give me some insight into changing my perspective.

There have been a few gains post A. I (we) have learned how to communicate better. I'm super aware of boundaries. I know about love languages, enneagrams, MBTI, attachment styles, and meditation. I've been to IC, done EMDR and dealt with some childhood bullshit. I feel like I ran the gauntlet and emerged a stronger and better person. I know I can endure anything life throws at me and be okay. I am much more appreciative overall now. If this is the stuff you're talking about HT, then I get it. I don't associate some of this with the marriage, this is more "me" stuff.

There are a shitload of losses too, especially M related things. I really don't want to list them out. I'm exhausted and I just don't want to rehash that shit for the millionth time. I hope this post's intent gets through. I'm a logic\math\electrons guy, not a wordsmith by any stretch. So, can you please tell me in what ways your M is better now?

So, can you please tell me in what ways your M is better now?

I'm not HT - nor would try to speak for him about why he thinks his marriage is better. But I have made posts like his, and I always do so with the idea in mind that I'm looking to help.

I think the different experiences at SI make this place work, because we all heal, we just go at it our own way.

I know I can endure anything life throws at me and be okay.

This is the only line that matters to me. However any of us get the point that have endured and know we can be fine, that's the important stuff.

Survival first. That's what I did.

Then, for me, it becomes about the life you aim for. We tend to hit what we aim at, eventually.

It becomes about the kind of relationship you want.

If you're done with the one you're in, I totally get it.

And HT kind of explained it, infidelity ends the marriage.

And like Unhinged says, it's always a deal breaker.

It's what we do with the wreckage.

My marriage is better because we used to compromise. We don't do that anymore. We used to wear masks and play certain roles -- walking on egg shells to avoid hurt feelings. We don't live like that anymore. It's a bullshit free zone, and I really, really like that part a lot. I get to be me, say what's in my head and choose -- choose to be vulnerable and giving again (after a couple years of recovery).

We got the relationship we wanted after we started over.

Every trauma in life changes us forever. Infidelity is as bad it gets -- though I'm not trying to tempt life to show me worse.

It's just an ability to see the trauma for what it is and see what is possible today, with this person who hates what she did almost as much as I do.

If we do stay, I think the difference between misery and a chance to be happier -- is the ability to recognize that what our WS did reflects on them and not us.

If they can own it all, and repair their malfunction -- we still then have a choice to accept their changes or not, or trust some (100 percent trust never works for anybody) or not. I don't see my wife as her worst self anymore. That took time.

Delusional, to me, is pretending nothing happened.

I know what happened and re-drew the line in the dirt.

If it gets crossed, hey, I gave a chance I never thought I would give.

I'm stronger too, and if for any reason it does take a turn, I'm good.