SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Also, nobody's a fucking expert here.

Nobody can be an expert in your marriage except you. That's probably why it took you the time to figure out you'll probably divorce. Because nobody could be an expert on the situation until you learned how to be.

Was the time and trial it took to learn a waste of time? Only you can answer that and whichever answer you arrive at is FINE. The core problem with the premise behind this thread is that there is a universal standard of morals, approach, and behavior towards divorce/reconciliation with little respect or consideration for differing situations.

This thread wasn't started because a BH just found out his wife is pregnant with the other man's child. It was started in defense of RB's comments, him being told he broke a guideline, and three or four other members calling RB out for his very insulting comments about the men here who attempt reconciliation.

For the record..I agree. Finding out your wife cheated and is now pregnant with another man's child is horrifying. I'll even go a step further and say,that after dday, having to DNA test your children to make sure they're biologically yours, is one aspect of infidelity women don't have to deal with. In that regard, men have it worse. I can come up with examples of equally horrific shit a bw has to deal with that a BH doesn't. But it's unnecessary.

And I take issue with you saying that men are treated differently here. Actually, my comments on this post were in defense of the men here. I have a great deal of respect for many of the betrayed husbands here. As well as a few former wayward husbands. I do not feel men are treated differently. For many years, there has been a thread in the ICR forum specifically for betrayed men. It wasn't until sometime in the last year that women got a betrayed wives thread in that forum. There's also a separate thread, just for men, for regaining respect for your WW. There is no such thread for the women. Not to mention, in the years I've been here, there have been several threads started on the General forum, by a bw, praising the BM thread..And giving respect to the men who post on it. I have yet to see a similar thread about the BW thread.

And there are all kinds of threads about colorful names to call the AP. It's filled by betrayed wives, calling out the other woman. Very rarely does a BH post on threads like that.

I've seen several wayward wives raked over the coals here. Donewiththatlife..Edith...sosorry...frostedheart..being just a few. They don't get a pass. Ever.

To reiterate..Spock is receiving the comments he has, because he speaks extremely negative about women in general. Not wayward wives. Women. All women. It has zero to do with a BH dealing with his wife being pregnant by the OM. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone...including women...who wouldn't find that a terrible tragedy.

I can guarantee if a woman started a thread similar to this,only about men, she would be called out.

Add to that...several time over the years a new BW will show up on jfo...asking if all men cheat...And always..ALWAYS..a woman will say absolutely not. To not paint all men a wayward just because their husband cheated. I can't recall that ever happening when a man says the same about women.

So to say men are treated differently here is crap.

And...I'm not a girl. I'm a woman. And I'm sure you're rolling your eyes. Would it be ok if I called you a boy? Or are you a man? See the difference?

[This message edited by confused615 at 11:40 AM, April 18th (Tuesday)]

There are double standards to just about everything in life. Some will work for you, some against you. You know who started those double standards? Nature. People aren't created equal. If they were I'd be an NFL super star right now. Everyone take a breath and get over yourselves.

Talk about generalizing...a poster says they feel sorry for a BH's WW and all of sudden it's a common occurrence? No - you'll find dingbat responses all over the place...I call them out when I see it - one dingbat does not represent the majority at SI.

I always suggest divorce - read my posts in JFO - if the spouse is unremorseful and the BS wants to R - file for divorce is what I advise. If a poster says it's a dealbreaker - I support that too...and I think I'm the norm.

As for a thread where the OP was called out for their remarks - Cryinginsilence took a heavy hit recently - a BW called out by members of both genders.

[This message edited by sassylee at 12:16 PM, April 18th (Tuesday)]

This is a ridiculous thread in some respects. Of course, there are double standards because females and males are very different biologically. Some work to your advantage and some are a disadvantage (if your a male and you get laid a lot you are a God, if you are female you are a slut...its ok for a woman to hit a man but not a man to hit a woman, etc...).

But I do think RB was right on a general level. If you divorce a cheater you are seen as strong, whereas if you reconcile with a cheater you are seen as weak. Of course, that isn't the case, but its the perception and that is what we are discussing. I also think their is validity that men get most of the blame if the marriage goes South. I always wonder when I tell someone I'm divorced and if I tell the reason why, I wonder if the person thinks less of me as a man.

All the man-hating and woman-hating is stupid, get over yourselves, you are different from your counterpart and women will never be linebackers in the NFL and men will never be able to lactate from their nipples.

Accept it and move on.

I have not read most of this discussion. I am going to pick on confused615's post because she's awesome and she can take it.

It was started in defense of RB's comments, him being told he broke a guideline, and three or four other members calling RB out for his very insulting comments about the men here who attempt reconciliation.

I believe that there are many double standards, as I have stated previously. I don't know what RB said or did, but there are double standards... and there is being a dick. It sounds like RB was a dick.

(p.s. I use "dick" in a gender-irrelevant way here, ok?)

I do not feel men are treated differently.

I think that men and women are treated differently at SI. I think that's ok as long as the "don't be a dick" line is not crossed. confused615 is an example of an SI member who treats everyone similarly (although perhaps slightly differently). She does not cross the "don't be a dick" line.

To reiterate..Spock is receiving the comments he has, because he speaks extremely negative about women in general.

Yeah, because he is being a dick. It has little to do with double standards.

I can guarantee if a woman started a thread similar to this,only about men, she would be called out.

I agree. I can cite examples.

And...I'm not a girl. I'm a woman. And I'm sure you're rolling your eyes. Would it be ok if I called you a boy? Or are you a man? See the difference?

I'm guessing that 'boy' is more accurate.

Awesome post,barcher.

Randy;

Problem is RB didn’t say that that if you divorce you are seen as strong and if you reconcile you are seen as weak.

He said there were two types of men. Strong confident that would NEVER (and he emphasizes the finality) reconcile and then the other type that is (quote) “a pathetic display of manhood in reality“ (unquote).

He doesn’t state that this is how others would see you, but as fact: Divorce and you are strong, reconcile and you are weak.

End result? Original poster that was seeking help decided he wouldn’t find it here.

^^^^ which is the most unfortunate outcome of his comment...

He doesn’t state that this is how others would see you, but as fact: Divorce and you are strong, reconcile and you are weak.

End result? Original poster that was seeking help decided he wouldn’t find it here.

Thats not necessarily true. We don't know why the original poster posted his story and stopped posting. There were plenty of comments in the thread besides RB and I don't think his comment was any reason for the original poster to shy away from SI, it wasn't even directed towards him. It was simply a generalization. And it was just one view point of many.

My bad, I actually thought women of a certain age liked being called girls. I'm kidding ladies, put down the torches and pitchforks.

I can come up with examples of equally horrific shit a bw has to deal with that a BH doesn't.

Like what exactly? Seriously, I do not know. Please enlighten me.

And since you mentioned it, the sosorry\swat saga is a pretty damn good example of a BH being pushed to R with a remorseful spouse. Even quite some time after the D.

I do think spock got a raw deal in this thread. It was a rant thread, he clearly stated that, let the guy rant. I do think redbaron broke the guidelines. He simply should not have used the word "all". Not arguing that. Mindjob's point is true, there are differing situations that should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Everyone has their own line in the sand dealbreakers too. Those should be respected here.

I don't think it's appropriate to try and zing a BS with the cursing and fucking other men comment. The tongue in cheek\that wasn't meant as an insult\ bullshit is something that should not happen IMO. Why poke spock, and most BHs, with that comment? The facts stuff was childish too.

[This message edited by stayedforthekids at 1:12 PM, April 18th (Tuesday)]

An example? HPV. Yes,men can be carriers, and yes gay men can die from it, but if you're a straight heterosexual man..no.

But a man can give a woman hpv. My 23 year old daughter is dealing with it. Either the men who raped her gave it to her..or the man who cheated on her two years ago did.

She is now infertile. She also happens to have a strain of hpv that causes cancer. She has to get her cervix lasered every six months for the rest of her life. Until it eventually turns to full blown cancer, and then she gets to decide between chemotherapy or a hysterectomy.

Had she become pregnant, the pregnancy would have resulted in losing the child.

Pretty fucking horrific.

[This message edited by confused615 at 1:13 PM, April 18th (Tuesday)]

there is a "Internet Newspaper" - Daily Mail

interesting discussion - series of articles regarding:

"My bad, I actually thought women of a certain age liked being called girls. I'm kidding ladies, put down the torches and pitchforks."

search hint - warning strong opinions stated therein:

Are you a woman or a girl?

This week feminist writer Bonnie Greer wrote that it was an insult to call a woman a girl, sparking a fierce debate. Here we ask four writers their opinion.

maybe Dr. Spock can start a thread on that one?

One thing I don't understand Mr. Spock and stayedforthekids...aren't you both reconciling? If you think redbaron's advice is so great, then why don't you guys take it and D? I don't get it.

Mr. Spock, just reading your profile is heartbreaking. You are clearly miserable and it seems that the A is a deal breaker for you...so why not D? You are defending redbaron but you do the opposite of what he recommends. After reading your profile I would recommend you D as well...it's not too late!

it helps to have lived in other countries to get a perspective on this because sometimes seeing things from a different perspective/culture makes you re-examine your own culture and biases.

9 months in the middle east and i saw routinely women treated as possessions. 5 yrs in italy where women are definitely 2nd class citizens in everything until it comes to kids then everything works their way. 10 yrs in germany and the laws preferences are (in order) german women, kids, german men, foreign women, foreign men. german women will almost always get custody even in the most extreme bad mom cases. its changing but slowly.

in america domestic violence is about 50/50 regarding men or women initiating. about 80% arrested were male. ive seen bh ripped over hitting a ww and ive seen bw ripped over hitting a wh. i cant recall a bh getting a free pass on this but can recall many bw getting a pass. there is a huge double standard. i saw a youtube video of some girl punching some guy at a party for laughs: she hit him 4-5x blackened his eye and bloodied his nose while 2-3x people tried to calm her bit but also laughing. when guy finally hit her back the crowd grew very hostile to him (one shouting "you know what you just did, you hit a girl. thats so wrong). its blatant in society. india (i think) made a video called "the slap" to show how biased it is. i say it right out - hit me and if you arent a kid i plant your ass. period. chances are great that some % of that 80% arrested who were men wee striking back in self defense and still were the only one arrested. but i have a bias too - id (under the 'right conditions') consider striking another male first (i hit an ap of my ww) but would never hit a woman first.

the pay gap is thoroughly debunked - aside from anectdotal evidence of a poster above. pay charts rarely compare same jobs and even rarer take into account leaving to have/raise a kid (your peers who didnt leave got pay raises and promotions). this is one of the most oft repeated nonsense 'facts' today. its a lie. end of story.

women tend to be the non working or lower paid member in a marriage so disportionately more often collect support leading to the assertion men get taken to the cleaners. true but misleading. the higher wage earner is the one screwed.

women tend to get primary custody more often due to their non working status (sahm) but this isnt the full story because working moms still get it more than sahd.

women tend to make horrible ground fighters in the military due to weaker bones, less muscle mass, damage to mission success rates (both sexes tend to quit the mission more if a female is wounded), lack of aggression, and body differences (women get more infections from poor hygiene conditions in the field). most women dont want ground combat positions (rarely applied for or accepted) but some want it badly (combat experience aids promotions) because without combat experience there is a glass ceiling. usa answer in all services except marines was to dumb down for women or lowered standards for both sexes so more women can pass. the corps wont be long holding out til pressure makes them join the others.

men, especially white men, are the safe butt of jokes in usa culture because everyone else has a victim card. anyone who thinks otherwise doesnt watch movies or tv. the sole exception is rap music where almost all women are denigrated.

reconciliation is a gift. its voluntary from the bs and is given or not given as a choice by each bs. bh are sometimes pressured to r with a 'remorseful" ww. i cant remember ever seeing a bw getting this pressure.

evidently there are two kinds of men - alphas that are succesful and d a cheating ww vs betas that race to r, have no backbone, and are weak. odd. im the most dangerous person in 99% of ALL rooms, im successful, and i R. guess either im a loser after all .. or in a 'secret' different group. what about women? r = beta wimp and d = alpha self confident bread winner too?

we hear alot that a wh gets ow pregnant and it wasnt planned but ww gets pregnant and she did it on purpose to emasculate bh. nonsense. cheaters rarely use protection and getting pregnant is usually a roll of the dice with no protection. this biad against ww isnt fair either.

there is a society wide convention in usa that men are cheated on for being asses and cheat because they are pigs but a womans needs werent being met. ironically in italy men cheat because they 'cant help it' whereas a cheating woman is a whore whereas in the middle east we read of women arrested for being gang raped.

there are biases all around us. in all cultures. most, if not all, have winners and losers to one degree or another. rarely is it fair.

but you know, it shouldnt apply here. here we are all hurting and should be trying to help each other heal.

what we cant do is drop this crap on somebody reeling from the worst crisis in their lives. they leave or can get pressured to d/r. that is so unfair to them.

[This message edited by william at 5:04 PM, April 18th (Tuesday)]

I see your point with the HPV thing confused. I could split hairs with other STDs but I really don't have it in me to argue anymore. And truly, regardless of gender, being betrayed by your spouse sucks.

I didn't know that had happened to your daughter either. That is beyond horrific. I sincerely hope your daughter is okay.

Liz, I think rebaron's delivery wasn't that great but his message was spot on for me and my experiences. I have struggled in R for years and years. Too long really. The cognitive dissonance is fucking me up. I can't seem to shift my perspective that, if I stay married to a cheating woman, I am a giant fucking pussy. I can totally relate to rb's thoughts on just getting the hell out of the marriage ASAP after d day. I did not read his post that any man that attempts R is weak. I read his comment to be directed at any man that attempts the 180 or other marriage policing activities. I don't think either of those notions will woo a WW back either. YMMV. I understand the D path; I am not so clear on how to R without having constant issues with the past. I do need to divorce for my own reasons. I have come to realize I am simply not one of those people that can stay with a cheater. I don't see it as being stronger, better, special, or in any way superior to those that stay. In fact, I wish I could forgive and stay married. It would be so much easier on everybody. Unfortunately, I just can't seem to put this mess aside and move on.

I have put my WW through hell too. I have been a complete and total asshole. I think part of the reason I stayed was to punish her and partially because I did not want to deal with step parent drama along with the whole shared custody bullshit (an FOO issue of mine). I had to mourn the whole loss of the family "dream" too. It's been a process. I have discussed this with my WW and she's frantically trying to save the M. I have to admit I'm confused by that. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure takes on a whole nother meaning. I will say we know each other better now. We communicate better. She has grown as a person. I have changed too. The whole damn thing is a fucking shame really. It is what it is.

I have a different perspective on this now. The absolute last thing I want to do on this forum is cause any BS a sliver of pain. I don't care if they are a chauvinist or a misogynist or even a fucking vegan

Thank you.

I don't have it in me to argue about this anymore. Pain is pain and it all fucking sucks.

For the record...I think a BH who has decided to attempt reconciliation is a strong, good, compassionate man. I don't think they're weak,in any way.

Hell....I think all of us betrayed spouses are badasses. Whether you choose divorce,or reconciliation. We are survivors. We are warriors. We have been kicked in the gut,and had our heart ripped out. But we're all still standing.

This thread has generated a lot of responses. To see if we're just spinning, I went back to the thread that triggered Spock's 'rant', and I'd like to begin at the beginning again.

I'm writing to ask Spock to identify the words/phrases/sentences/paragraphs that he sees as double standards.

In the original thread, in the period before this thread was opened:

I see in the triggering thread one person stating that there are 2 types of men, those who D and those who aren't really men.

I see the mods flag the statement as a violation of the 'no (over)generalization' guideline.

I see another person say the '2types' post (not the author of the post) is gross.

I see, I think, 2 other people say they disagree with the '2 types' assertion. I see maybe 3 people who say they love the '2 types' assertion.

*********************************

The 2 types post is a definite violation of SI guidelines. I don't see how that can be questioned.

The disagreements with that post are pretty mild, until I responded somewhat more judgmentally than I now wish - but my post was after this thread started, so it's irrelevant to my concerns here.

What is there in that thread that sparked this ‘rant’, mr spock?

*********************************

This may not be a t/j...

I'm not sure it's fair to say SI is biased toward R. Remember – there’s an active D/S forum, and folks who post there only rarely post in G or R. It certainly is fair to say that a lot of us who post in G & R see R as the better choice, all other things being equal.

I've repeatedly called myself biased toward R, but in fact that's not really a prejudice. Rather, it's based on considerations like these:

1) Both D and R are difficult. If R is the right choice, R is easier than D, and if D is the right choice, D is easier than R – but it’s hard to know what course is right immediately.

2) R is generally cheaper than D.

3) The betrayed M was probably based on something healthy, and that something can probably be nurtured back to grow back.

4) A good R is probably better for any kids.

5) A good R has long term benefits for the partners.

6) Since D and moving one's household are 2 of the most stressful things in our lives, R may be less stressful than D and breaking up the household.

7, 8, 9...) Etc., etc., etc.

BUT - if you review recommendations by long term posters, I believe you'll almost always see statements to the effect that a BS can't R with an unremorseful WS - of any gender. IMO, that goes a long way to mitigating any bias toward R, if there is any to begin with.

*************************************************

But back to my questions:

I'm writing to ask Spock to identify the words/phrases/sentences/paragraphs that he sees as double standards.

What is there in that JFO thread that sparked this ‘rant’, mr spock?

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:07 PM, April 18th (Tuesday)]

I don't think it's appropriate to try and zing a BS with the cursing and fucking other men comment. The tongue in cheek\that wasn't meant as an insult\ bullshit is something that should not happen IMO. Why poke spock, and most BHs, with that comment? The facts stuff was childish too.

Hey, I get it stayedforthekids. You feel I am childish and I post inappropriately. Put me on your shitlist, I am on many, I imagine. Don't read my posts. Chill.

However, you are still missing my point and want to view my statement through your biased lens. MrSpock was trying to demean and denigrate me for the way I express myself. Either implying I have mental/intelligence deficiencies and/or a character flaw. I feel I have a right to defend myself from such assertions.

As far as character flaws go, cussing (if it is a character flaw, I think not) is pretty far down on the list of flaws. I feel if we took a survey here most, if not all, would take the potty mouth faithful spouse over an unfaithful spouse who doesn't swear. I wasn't "zinging" anyone. That is how you are choosing to take it. I was making the point that I do have flaws but being an unfaithful spouse isn't one of them. Which I think is pretty high up on the list of flaws you really, really fucking don't want your spouse to have. I think it speaks loudly for my good character that I am a faithful spouse. If enjoying cussing makes me less than in some eyes, well...I really have no fucks to give. I do not mean that disrespectfully to anyone. I just save my "fucks to give" for more important shit.

ETA: to add some points I left out

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:31 PM, April 18th (Tuesday)]

Hell....I think all of us betrayed spouses are badasses. Whether you choose divorce,or reconciliation. We are survivors. We are warriors. We have been kicked in the gut,and had our heart ripped out. But we're all still standing.

^^^^^^^^

I think this sums it up rather well.