SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You're self-employed and on her health insurance. Tied to her like that.

Co-addiction: Not saying you're a user yourself. But you are - even now - managing her. Part of the sickness. Go find the post where you speak about getting her to tell you if she feels like she's slipping and if this is all too much. You're not her sponsor. You're not her counselor. That's you managing a situation that's not yours to manage. Her condition is controlling you.

Stop using second hand.

She's still refusing to judge herself by her actions alone, and it's a big problem.

Active addicts generally don't. I know generalizations are not allowed here, but this is a fairly widespread phenomenon and that's one of the almost universally accepted principles.

[This message edited by Forged1 at 11:08 PM, August 8th (Tuesday)]

Were there any major surprises in the timeline?

A few. There were some specific sex acts they did together that she did not mention to me before. Nothing she's never done with me first, mind you, but still surprising to hear.

Also, she mentioned buying him a $75 Christmas gift that I never knew about... Some sexy photos she sent him that she never told me about...

Oh, and I guess also just the knowledge that this EA was inappropriate and over the line way before I had first thought. If you recall, earlier in this thread I mentioned that I had texted her in mid August asking if I should be worried about this guy, and she said "no." When I showed her that exchange last month, WW said that she wasn't lying to me at the time and genuinely did think that she had things under control before the A turned physical in September.

But her disclosure today mentioned 8-10 threads of salacious texts in July 2016 where they talked about their personal fantasies and exchanged sexy "stories" starring themselves. Plus she had sent him some photos of her in her underwear. So, obviously, she knew things were already out of control and flat-out lied to me when I asked if OM was going to be a problem.

Lastly, she admitted that every day from October 3rd - June 20th (that's over 8 months, if you're counting), she texted him a selfie from the bathroom every morning. Not a sexy selfie, mind you. Just a photo of herself fully-clothed in front of the sink. Every. Single. Day.

The reason? He wanted to be the first to know what she was wearing every day. So, when she got dressed in the morning after her shower, she'd snap the pic before coming out into the bedroom where I was.

The dude was power-playing me and I didn't even know it.

Your WW had a rather odd response to another poster's question regarding the sex acts. Your WW said she didn't do anything with the AP that she would've denied you.

Does this mean she performed sex acts with the AP that you weren't interested in or did she not perform any new sex acts with the AP?

Does this mean she performed sex acts with the AP that you weren't interested in or did she not perform any new sex acts with the AP?

She didn't perform any new sex acts with him that she hadn't already done with me. However, one act she did with him is one that we haven't done in a very, very long time. Years.

Is she open to taking a polygraph test about the timeline and her feelings about the OP?

Is she open to taking a polygraph test about the timeline and her feelings about the OP?

I'm sure she would be. I don't really believe in the reliability of polygraphs, though.

Mike7 and Forged1 have some really good insights. You might want to read them a few times and digest the ideas.

As for her latest word salad/brain dump.....wow, just wow. What you describe is in fact her running 2 marriages in tandem. Kind of like Walloped's WW. Sex, lunches, long walks, professions of love, buying gifts, etc etc. I remember a cheesy made for TV movie in the 80's about a guy who had two separate families/marriages in two different states. Based on a true story. The guy was like a well meaning sociopath. I remember thinking do guys like this really exist? Now it seems like some of the ladies that sought to level that playing field with 2nd marriages of their own.

The part where she was already over the line with the OM at the time of your text, classic lying. Her claims that she got rid of the couch (true she did) but leaving out the part where you demanded it, classic lying by omission.

Her evasive lawyer speak is pure manipulation. If she can drown you in verbiage maybe you will not notice. Maybe she can get you to believe she is "doing the work" as they say around here.

I agree that a total separation form her would be a good idea. Stop the daily checking in. No contact for a few weeks. Sitting and processing your thoughts without her influence.

Ouch. Now, the reason why that specific act wasn't done in years, was it because you didn't enjoy it and didn't ask for it or was it because in all those years when you requested for that act, you were denied ?

My ex and I tried almost everything together too. Some acts weren't really enjoyable to her, so we never did it more than a few times for our entire marriage. With her AP however, he got it whenever he wanted. Even though she 'claimed' she never enjoyed these acts, she did it over and over, anything he wanted without ever saying no. Complete BS. They always enjoyed it. If your WW was doing sexual acts with the OM that was denied to you for many years, I find it hard to believe when she said she was checking out of the affair. Similar as to her claim when she invited the OM without actually intending to sleep with him. What did she think was gonna happen, that they would watch television, spend hours talking, share a few laughs and he would be on his way ?

I'm sorry, but instead of feeling REMORSE, I feel what your WW is feeling is mostly REGRET. She is trying over and over to minimise her actions so that you can accept what she did and then all can be rugsweeped. Wrote OM passionate love letters ? It's wrong but she didn't mean what she wrote, it was just something he wanted. So you shouldn't be too bothered about it right ? Sleeps with OM in your home together ? Well, its wrong, but not that bad because she didn't

mean to sleep with him in your home to humiliate you, but rather they were just watching television and it happened right ?

Just because she may claim she didn't mean to do these things doesn't mean it will hurt any less to you. She still did it. I hope your WW focuses more on the impact of her actions on you, rather than trying to reason why she did what she did in hopes that it hurts you less.

Lastly, she admitted that every day from October 3rd - June 20th (that's over 8 months, if you're counting), she texted him a selfie from the bathroom every morning. Not a sexy selfie, mind you. Just a photo of herself fully-clothed in front of the sink. Every. Single. Day.

The reason? He wanted to be the first to know what she was wearing every day. So, when she got dressed in the morning after her shower, she'd snap the pic before coming out into the bedroom where I was.

The dude was power-playing me and I didn't even know it.

Just when I think that things here wouldn't shock, surprise or sadden me I read this. The first thing she thinks of every AM is to show him what she is wearing...Just plain mean.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 2:05 AM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

Ouch. Now, the reason why that specific act wasn't done in years, was it because you didn't enjoy it and didn't ask for it or was it because in all those years when you requested for that act, you were denied ?

Ugh. I don't know why I'm being so coy about this. We're all adults here and none of you actually know me in real life, so I'll just say it: Anal. We'd done it a few times in the past. It was mostly experimental and WW never seemed to particularly like it. I liked it ok but not enough to make a big deal about it. The last time we did it was maybe 5 years ago.

So, you can imagine my surprise when that was mentioned on the timeline today. Of course, true to form, after the disclosure she told me that she didn't really enjoy the anal sex with her AP. It was just something *he* wanted to do, so she did it.

You gotta hand it to the gal: She's nothing if not consistent.

LuxuryJellO: I am glad she is forthcoming regarding her actions during the affair, I think she probably has more to reveal but might be gauging your reaction each time she reveals something.

It's clear she was all up into the affair fromthe start and saw this OM as a second husband. I am not surprised that she was sending him partial nude photos and texts well before you actually became suspicious and played innocent and naive when you texted her about their 5 hour dinner meet ups. It never even deterred her for a while within no time they were meeting up for sex. Did she care about your suspicions or how you felt uncomfortable about their relationship? No, No, her next step knowing how you felt was to begin the sexual encounters. She abused you, she used you, took you for granted. She had no desire and no care to reserve any sexual acts or intimacy for just you and her. That should tell you where she is at regarding you and where she was regarding OM. Have you asked her whether she had /made him use protection (condoms) and was she protecting herself from becoming pregnant? I'd be curious about the time they had sex in your house since she said it was not planned that it just happened. Did he use a condom that night? Her answer to that specific question should tell you whether or not she was being truthful in her explanation of that specific incident. Did she demand/or insist that he get tested before they embarked on a sexual affair? Her answer to this will also tell you how much she was concerned or not about putting your health at risk. Ask her what were her plans if she had become pregnant by OM? Her answer will help you to determine her plan(s). Remembr she was convinced sit was a total period of insanity, that she was not thinking.

It's the classic WS response. Funny how they almost always follow it up by reassuring us BS's that they didn't enjoy doing it. It's as if them not enjoying it makes it hurt less.

Funny thing is, it doesn't matter whether they enjoyed it or not. If she enjoyed it, OM had a part of her that you didn't.

If she didn't enjoy it, OM still mattered to her so much that she was willing to suffer discomfort just to please him, all the while denying you.

From what I've seen in forums and life, most BS's here who choose to R are significantly older, with children involved. And the betrayal occurs after decades of marriage. I wouldn't call any part of this as good fortune, but at least you are young with no children. Why put yourself through this ?

The pain never heals. It just becomes a dull ache with time. Sure she might do the right things now in hopes of regaining your trust. But you will never trust her again the same way. Let's say a few years from now, she goes somewhere without you and forgets to check in with you. What will your first thoughts be then ?

Any WS who gets their BS to R gets the upper end of the deal. They got to have their fun and their marriage as well. Sure she might regret it now, she never 'really' loved OM, she never thought of leaving you for AP. But she definitely wasn't thinking of her marriage when she was writing her love letters, that's for sure. Why put yourself through a shitty end of the deal ?

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you see yourself starting a family with a woman who once displayed a serious lack of good judgement and respect for you ?

I've seen and read way too many stories about BS that spend years in misery, only to regret that they didn't divorce their WS after Dday.

Just my two cents. Of course I do not know anything about your relationship, your history together, and how you spent your years together and if all of that is worth fighting for. It's up to you to decide if your relationship prior to the A is worth wading through the mess she created

I wish you all the happiness OP, whether you decide to R or D.

One last post before bed to address the latest comments.

breadfruit1:

WW told me that they never used condoms during their affair... Well, that's not entirely true. First she told me they always used condoms, then later said she maybe slipped up once and forgot to use a condom one time, then finally revealed that they never used them.

She is on birth control, so pregnancy wasn't a concern. But STDs certainly were. Thankfully, we've both been tested recently and came out clean...

She said after DDay that she wasn't concerned about STDs at the time because OM told her he was clean and she trusted him. Of course, it has since come out that he was on several dating websites and had a few different women on the hook. She not only put herself at risk, she put *me* at risk!

Larryh1996:

Preach on, brother. Her actions and attitude before/after DDay remind me of the lyrics to a song by one of my favorite bands, Streetlight Manifesto:

I felt no guilt 'til I was caught

And I was told that I was guilty

And even then I wasn't really sure (yeah yeah)

If the thing I felt was guilt itself

Or maybe it was something else

Frustration at the fact that I was ever caught at all

That is why we need sex education . Really she fall for the "Im clean because he said so". Since he wanted more than an extra companion he was increasing your chances of you getting something, even more if it was anal. Is good that you didn't get anything, you still will have to check 6 months from now. Every time she didn't use protection, she was playing russian roulette and she was dragging you too, you were lucky, but imagine if it was the other outcome. At least she was supposed to get him to take an exam before engaging on doing it without condom. Like most ws she didn't care at that moment. I also think that you are still getting TT, it gets worst before it get better.

Those lyrics sum up the situation well. The is zero doubt that the letters provide the insight into the affair. Now

That she's been caught and she stands to lose both men she's regretful. The way people like her cope is that they've re-written history even to themselves. They believe their own bullshit.

With having no kids and her doing this for a significant portion of your marriage one asks why even worry yourself with it. Under the best of circumstances it takes 3-5 years to recover from an affair. That's more than your entire marriage l. In those 5 years you could find a perfectly fine woman who loves you for who you are. Who is happy arguing about things like the thermostat and falling asleep with her head on your shoulder.

Or you could stay with the crazy woman who fucked her boyfriend on your coach after bringing the bread that he made for her home for you to taste.

There are so many examples of pure cruelty here. It was and is one of the less good abuse cycles that we have seen here.

Every so often there is a moment in a thread that really punches me right in the gut. One that actually hits me out of left field so much that I have to take a moment and compose myself, wipe a tear away and remind myself to breathe.

It's usually something small and innocuous. Something that should be throw-away but actually is the thing that I find most hurtful and damning, more than the sex, the texting, the lies.

I've seen it and felt it in The threads of SpaceGhost and Walloped and a few others.

And now in yours.

The fact that she took a picture of herself and her outfit first thing in the morning and texted it to him crushes me. Sorry to be so sappy. Just the thought-stealing effort that this effort took breaks my heart.

What it means is unsaid by her (at least in how you reported it). The fact that she wanted him to be the first to say "you look nice this morning dear" and not you, really rips me.

I'm not sure if you were the type of guy to say something like that to her when she came downstairs ready for her day, but it crushes me that even if you thought to do it once during this time, that someone would have already have had the opportunity to do so.

Of course it's overall minor to the other infidelities she committed. But to me, it shows commitment on her part. It's shows that this was truly a love affair. One in which, if neither of them were attached already, they would have perhaps called the greatest of their lives.

Now all that said, I am not saying this means R is impossible. You already have a long climb ahead of you toward that. But it has been done by others here before.

But I will say, that something tells me this item she revealed to you was probably the most difficult for her to relay, for her. I'm sure she thought telling you that doing anal or not using a condom would be the most troubling part of her admission for you to hear.

But to most women it is usually not the sex that was most important to them, but the connection. And the daily picture for 8 months was probably one of the most emotional parts of the A for her. The most exciting and valuable.

I give her credit for admitting it to you as I really believe, whether you have the full story or not, it's probably one of the last parts of the A she would ever want to let go of.

That's it for my thoughts.

I think now I need to go get a shot of bourbon....

LJ,

I understand the desire to know every last detail. I went through a similar thing, as if somehow I couldn’t make a decision unless I knew every last excruciating detail. Time, date, place, how long each session lasted, what was said, spit or swallow…And then my best friend got frustrated with me and shook me out of it. He told me to imagine that I had a box that contained every letter, every message, sound recordings of every phone call, film clips of every single kiss and sexual encounter…Absolutely every piece of evidence it was possible to have was going to be in this box. And he said something along the lines of, “What does having every single piece of proof tell you that you do not already know now? Does any of it change the basic facts of what happened? All it does is prove the same few things, over and over again. Why don’t you stop digging, look at what you know now, and accept the truths it is telling you?”

And I realised at that moment that my quest to know every last detail was a way to put off doing what my friend suggested; accepting what had been done, and making the decision based on it. I had been avoiding that, playing mind games with myself, telling myself that I had to have every last scrap of information before I could make an informed decision. I didn’t see it until my friend set me straight.

Honestly, LJ, you really do not need to retrieve any more messages from your wife’s phone. You have more than enough evidence. And would those messages say anything different to the communications that you already have? Your wife did not delete them because they contained anything good, did she? She knew what they said, and she went out of her way to ensure you did not see them. They would only be more professions of love for the OM, how great and exciting the affair is, all the same stuff that your wife is trying to say was a lie, or just stuff she said because she thought the OM wanted to hear it. Almost everyone who has read those denials knows them for what they so obviously are; desperate, ridiculous lies.

However, if you take your wife’s words at face value, that she was actively lying to the OM and leading him on, saying whatever it took to play him for a sucker because she was using him for her own amusement, while simultaneously lying to you and betraying you, what is your wife saying about herself? Does she want you to believe that every time she told the OM he was fantastic and she loved him, she was lying to him? That every time she lied to you and rushed to him to give herself physically to him, it was just a big joke at his expense, and she was having fun making a fool of the OM? How insane is that scenario? And if she wants you to believe that, how can you ever again believe her if she tells you that she loves you, or that she is telling you the truth? She lied to you for a whole year, and now she wants you to believe that she was also lying to the OM for that year too, as if that in some way redeems what she was doing.

She was totally committed to that guy, heart, mind, body and soul. She was prepared to betray you every day for a year, and even to bring the man into the home she shares with you and have sex with him. To photograph herself every day for him, and then smile at you, kiss you, and say she hoped you had a good day. She has the capability within her to do that, and no amount of self-excusing word-play of the kind she is indulging in over in the wayward forum can hide that essential truth. The truths of the affair are written in her actions, in neon letters ten feet high, so tall and so bright that no amount of long and verbose posts can disguise them.

I apologise for the bluntness of what I have written, but I have done it with the best intentions towards you, LJ. I am fifty-one years old now, and while the end is not quite in sight (I hope!), it has made me realise that life really is shorter than we think when we are young. We need to use our time wisely, not fritter it away with people who lie to us or manipulate us because it suits them to do so. I know that for a long time you thought the institution of marriage was pointless, but the fact of the matter is that for most of us, we have just one space in our lives for a ‘significant other’, whether we are married to them or not. Given that the years pass much more quickly than we would like, it makes sense to ensure that whoever we give that ‘significant other’ space to in our lives is the best possible candidate. They should be someone we can trust, and someone who will trust us. Someone who understands commitment, and the obligations and responsibilities that go with saying the words, “I love you”, or, “I do” to another human being. Someone whose honesty with others is based on a solid foundation of honesty with themselves.

So the question you should be asking yourself, LJ, is not so much whether or not condoms were used, or what colour they were, or what acts took place, or whether deleted messages can be retrieved, but whether, given what you now know about her, your wife is the best candidate to fill the ‘significant other’ slot in your life. It is a profound question to ponder, because your future happiness will depend to a great extent on who fills that space in your life, and what they bring into your life.

You are now in your early thirties, which is a period when people really set the course of the rest of their adult lives. Apologies if that sounds patronising; it isn’t meant that way. It is just that being my age has given me some perspective on the stages of life. We can be silly and irresponsible as teenagers, and we start to learn the rules of adult life and who we want to be in our twenties, but it is only really in our thirties that we settle down into the ‘groove’ we are going to be in for the next few decades. If you can take a step back from the fine details of the year-long betrayal, what you are really facing is a question about your future, and who you want sharing it with you, as your supportive, loving, and honest ‘significant other’.

It is a decision that only you can make, and I hope that whatever choices you eventually make, they work out well for you. You are a bright, nice guy, and I hope you have a long and happy life.

[This message edited by M1965 at 7:27 AM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

I think Stevesn's post is compelling.

I am normally pretty objective in these situations. In this case, there is nothing your WW could say that would convince me that she did not love the OM. Nothing. Love letters, photos of her being dressed daily...

"Wife, you can explain as much as you feel is necessary. However, your actions of love towards the OM speak so loudly that I can no longer hear your words. Lying to others is tragic, but it has nothing on the damage done when we lie to ourselves."

Brother, she is still compartmentalizing. She is lying to herself, which makes her words convincing. This is wayward behavior. She is a poor candidate for R for this reason.

The further layer of her being an addict makes R even less appealing.

I'm sorry you are here.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 9:18 AM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

When you all say you think WW loved OM - are you saying it was real love? Committed love? I see very little love in affairs. I see two dirty people with tingly privates and low self esteem using each other to stop the tingles and make themselves feel better/attractive/desirable/youthful whatever lack that exists.

Was she "in love" with OM - well duh - it's that infatuated teenager high school crap that's based solely on imagination and hormones. Of course she was infatuated but don't call that love. Don't demean the emotion by putting it on affair sex.

[This message edited by sassylee at 10:00 AM, August 9th (Wednesday)]

I posted a couple of times on your WW's thread, I hope that it helps.

Your wife can't reconcile her behavior with her self-image. What she's trying to do is divest herself from the behaviors (I was temporarily insane) as opposed to devaluing her self-image to match the behaviors (I did this and it's my fault).

She needs to admit that this is all on her, and own it.

The bad news is, she's not there yet. The good news is, I think that she will get there.

She is showing a lot of confusion, which is common with the cognitive dissonance she's facing. That may be frustrating, but it's a good sign.