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heartbroken is right - I can't think of one WS here who has requested and asked for forgiveness.

heartbroken, you said it better. Condoning. No BS, whether we forgive or not, divorce or reconcile, accepts the unfairness or doesn't, ever condones our WS's cheating.

MrsTGNM expecting TGNM to condone her infidelity isn't the same situation. MrsTGNM never condoned the infidelity, it seems, so there is no double standard. Condonation was never offered in the first place. As his affairs were hidden, I would feel safe to assume that TGNM didn't have the expectation that his infidelity be condoned by MrsTGNM. So, the infidelity was neither expected to be condoned nor offered to be condoned. Thus, no double standard.

I’m sorry this may be turning into a major t/j, but for me being entitled to forgiveness is a major issue.

However, my point, and I don't think I am explaining it well, is that we made promises on our wedding day. That was the standard we were going to live by.

I agree, and I’m not arguing anything to do with a double standard in relation to faithfulness, it IS the standard.

My last couple posts are about his entitlement to forgiveness, and that is where I see the double standard. She is NOT required to forgive him, and if he is expecting her to (while saying he wouldn’t/couldn’t do the same) there is a problem (double standard). It is a continued sense of entitlement (you have to do this, but I wouldn’t do it). If that is how he is conducting himself then I can see why his BW is having a problem.

On the other side of this no matter how entitled to sleeping with others Mrs. TGNM feels, he is not required to give her permission (and I still recommend he not). That may not stop her, and if she does then he will have the same difficult choice of to forgive or not, which Mrs. TGNM will not be entitled to no matter how much she or TGNM feels she is.

‘An eye for an eye’ and ‘you have to forgive me’ are both unhealthy and neither one works for healthy R.

Wow what a thread... Perhaps a little too raw myself to respond but I certainly have an opinion on it.

When my BH had told me he wanted to RA, I didn't condone it. He told me he wanted to feel better. We addressed it, talked about through it and discussed in MC. He officially told me that he had no intentions of ever sinking to "my level" and wanted to keep his leg up.

Little did I know, he fucked a hooker and 2 years later, I'm finding out about it.

Now he says, "I didn't think it was a big deal". Sure you want to give your WS a taste of their own medicine but are you prepared to own the fact that it actually makes you a cheater? The answer in our house was no. He still wanted to wear the BS hat and not be a cheater too. He wanted to play that role to the full extent.

I don't see R in our future. Not because he cheated too but because he is incredibly unremorseful and had no problem lying for 2 years about it. He has entitlement pouring out of every pore in his body. Having sex with a hooker didn't cause him any guilt. I would feel differently if he had come to me with an apology and felt like it was a bad choice.

So.. I sure hope Mrs TGNM turns the corner and finds a way to cope in a healthy way. A ONS will not make her feel sexy in any way shape or form. No matter how hard she tries, it just won't. She would feel used.. She would feel dirty.. She would hate herself.

I agree with heartbroken's statement. I didn't expect and demand R. It was given to me out of love.. OR SO I THOUGHT!!

Sorry for the little t/j TGNM

My last couple posts are about his entitlement to forgiveness, and that is where I see the double standard.

Okay, but I think heartbroken addressed that and rachelc and many other WS's. They don't expect forgiveness, they know what they have done is unforgivable. Would they like it at some point? I am sure they would. The WS's that have done the work to better themselves have worked on their entitlement issues.

However, in this situation MrsTGNM is expressing entitlement to forgiveness or condoning of her infidelity. So, if anyone is implementing a double standard, imo, it would be MrsTGNM.

Okay, but I think heartbroken addressed that and rachelc and many other WS's. They don't expect forgiveness, they know what they have done is unforgivable. Would they like it at some point? I am sure they would. The WS's that have done the work to better themselves have worked on their entitlement issues.

I do think what heartbroken and rachelc posted is on the money, but because I think it is relevant I will post the quote that started the double standard discussion one more time:

My BW believes it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive or accept what I did and yet not offer her the same in return. That double standard says that I'm entitled to more respect than she is. That double standard says I'm entitled to consideration when I gave her none at all.

'it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive' it is right there. It appears that Mrs. TGNM believes that TGNM expects her forgiveness, and that is why I had a problem. It may also be why she wants to ‘even the score’. She could be thinking along the lines of, ‘if he isn’t going to appreciate what I’m doing, then at least I can try and make him feel it, too' (I know this is unhealthy, but may be what is going on in her mind). And is why instead of giving permission I suggested he offer understanding and empathy.

[This message edited by nomoreplease at 3:55 PM, September 15th (Monday)]

No!!!

I believe an affair deeply damages the soul of the WS. You can be forgiven, of course, but it is not right.

Your wife did you right by sticking by you and try to R. She did you right by not having an A in the first place.

You wouldn't let one of your children cut their wrists or drink and drive. You would do all you could to save them and stop their destructive behavior.

The revenge affair would only bring her down. It wouldn't lift you up. It would damage her soul and make it harder for her to help repair yours by making amends properly, by you being remorseful, attentive, loving, and faithful from now on.

As hard as it is going to be for you to say this, tell her no way. You now love her too much to see her inflict damage on herself like that.

NP5

I also think that the heart of this matter---like every RA thread I've ever read here---is the idea that fucking someone else is OK under certain conditions...in this case, for the purposes of revenge or to make things even. Similarly to what SisterMilkshake said, if a WS's "reasons" for cheating don't hold water (as they shouldn't) then why should a potential WS's?

And if it's because "s/he did it first!"...? Then maybe we all should catalog every wrong done to us from now on and make sure to pay each one back equivalently. The world would turn much better, I'm sure. /sarcasm

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 5:28 PM, September 15th (Monday)]

I discussed this thread with my BW again. She said Teach8 described her feelings pretty well. We are only 6 months out and Teach8 is two years out and still struggling. This is yet one more thing my BW fears--being stuck in this place emotionally.

Thank you all for your viewpoints on this.

TGNM,

I do still struggle, but it's not like at 6 months. There are also many positive things...I see a man who has changed. I see a man more interested in his family and home. My H still has growing to do and so do I. It is so much to process and I do slip down the rabbit hole every now and then, but I climb out. My wh is learning how to not avoid conflict and how to try and help me climb out of those holes without slipping down himself. Right now that is our focus.

Please try to be there for her and don't let her feel alone while she is down the rabbit hole. Even if she pushes you away or lashes out. I know that is difficult, but it is one of the few things that helps. (TGNM and BW)

I hate to say it, but as a BS, I DID have a revenge one-night stand, and I hated myself for it. Still do. I thought it would make me feel less broken, less pathetic (like I could get someone I didn't have to pay for, since his AP was a prostitute). I told him immediately, and he forgave me immediately and has never brought it up again. It did not show him how I had felt when he did it to me, which, I guess was the true goal.

You can show this to your wife if you want. Tell her not to do it. It won't make her feel better. She will feel a thousand times worse.

'it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive' it is right there. It appears that Mrs. TGNM believes that TGNM expects her forgiveness, and that is why I had a problem. It may also be why she wants to ‘even the score’. She could be thinking along the lines of, ‘if he isn’t going to appreciate what I’m doing, then at least I can try and make him feel it, too' (I know this is unhealthy, but may be what is going on in her mind). And is why instead of giving permission I suggested he offer understanding and empathy.

That guy:

I agree with Nomore's posting.

I really doubt the affair is about revenge.

Based on your postings it appears that your wife thinks her episode of sex outside the marriage will teach you empathy for her plight

Personally, I think that's what most so named "revenge" affairs are about.

As for her feeling bad about herself afterward, I don't know. I can't find any psychological research to support that claim.

That feeling seems to be a feeling that is unique to certain posters.

Personally, only speaking for myself, a hidden affair would make me feel badly about myself, but an open relationship request is a whole 'nother animal.

Personally, again only speaking for myself, engaging in one episodes of extra marital sex, as did Peggy Vaughn, with my husband fully aware of why and the reason for the need, and with a carefully chosen partner, one who would not be hurt by the temporary and sexual only aspects of the relationship, I would NOT feel a loss of self esteem, afterward.

I personally really don't feel the sex was the worst aspect of my wayward's affair.

It was the lies and deceptions and the fact that he and his OW were gossiping about their respective spouses to each other.

I decided against outside sex because I was just not the interested in iT. My sense of self esteem is derived more from my career and intellect rather than feeling sexy or desired.

Apparently some BS's feel differently than I. I can totally understand their point of view and respect it, but I also respect other points of view.

But in the end all the matters is the way your BS will feel and what you can handle emotionally.

The reals issue, at this point, and IMO, is:

Is it a DEAL BREAKER for you?

If it is you need to communicate that to Your Betrayed spouse.

By being honest with you and herself, she is giving you choices.

At the time, I suggested an open relationship to my wayward, I personally knew it would be a deal breaker for my husband.

I was, actually, trying to push him away. I wanted him to leave.

Personally, If I had an affair, I can't imagine me telling my betrayed spouse that he could not engage in extra marital relationship, just once, to heal himself or to feel sexy and desired again.

And, if he did I would never tell him I would end the relationship.

I would ask him not to, but I don't think I could ever demand that he not do it. Nor, would I attempt to shame him about his feelings or issue ultimatums.

But that is only my personal feelings and opinion.

Anyway, you are in a tough spot.

I am rooting for you both having a successful R.

Truly, if your wife did not love you, that guy, she would not be in so much pain regarding your affairs.

[This message edited by seethelight at 9:40 AM, September 16th (Tuesday)]

see the light have you actually ever engaged in a ons? I don't believe that what happens after one, especially after infidelity has occurred in a M, is unique to certain posters. This describes exactly how I felt, and apparently others,

A ONS will not make her feel sexy in any way shape or form. No matter how hard she tries, it just won't. She would feel used.. She would feel dirty.. She would hate herself.

Tell her not to do it. It won't make her feel better. She will feel a thousand times worse

I just find it amazing that you are on here pushing this view and yet you didn't run out there and engage in this behavior yourself. ONS's by their very nature are not designed to make someone feel sexy and wanted. You don't carefully select a partner. It is a selfish and self centered act. Not designed to make anyone feel better about themselves at all.

[This message edited by tired girl at 10:16 AM, September 16th (Tuesday)]

If having an affair (revenge, whatever) is so healing to marriages it is a wonder that the wonderful Peggy Vaughn isn't extolled more by MC's and many others who have studied and researched and wrote books about the damage and healing from affairs. Dr. Shirley Glass certainly doesn't advocate having an affair to help the healing.

Pshaw to Peggy Vaughn, imo!

Personally, If I had an affair, I can't imagine me telling my betrayed spouse that he could not engage in extra marital relationship, just once, to heal himself or to feel sexy and desired again.

Really? What if you don't orgasm? Does that count then? Do you get a do over? What if you don't enjoy it at all (even if you orgasm), do you get a do over? What if the carefully "chosen one" is a crappy lover? A do over? What if it isn't exciting, but boring? Do you get a do over?

You get this one time pass. You are going to go fuck someone else, have an orgasm and like it, dammit. If not, too bad, so sad.

Frankly, a one time free pass to have sex from my FWH wouldn't nearly cover all the sex he had, all the orgasms with someone else. I don't orgasm easily with someone I don't have a deep connection with. Also, FWH knows what I need and what to do. Sorry, explaining in great detail to someone all the moves he needs to do and the order to do them in seems like it wouldn't be much fun and wouldn't help me feel sexy or desired. Nor, picking out a "carefully chosen partner". I can't even imagine what that process would look like.

eta: more thoughts

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:34 AM, September 16th (Tuesday)]

What happened to the golden rule? Treat others as you would like to be treated. There is no clause in there that says "only if they treat you right, otherwise you can say f the golden rule".

Call it whatever you want, shitty behavior is shitty behavior. The old you knew this, the new you is hurting immensely and trying to fill that gaping hole in you. The only difference is you no longer know exactly how to fill that hole in a healthy manner and have to take time to re-learn how to.

The position we are making this very personal "revenge" decision from is from pain, plain and simple. The advice of "wait 6-12 months to make any major decisions" is given because honestly for that duration (at least) we are understandably batshit fucking crazy. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'd call sleeping with someone else a pretty major decision, whether you're married or not. Remember you may APPEAR normal to outsiders and may even fool yourself but if you took a deep and hard look into your inner workings, you'd find your thought process is probably a little suspect.

I'd wager if you were in the same sane mindset you were in months before you found out, you'd give yourself the advice to NOT do it. Don't make decisions from a place of pain, you will only compound the pain. Instead focus on rewiring yourself back to that healthy status you were in previously, you will be much happier.

I haven't read all the responses, but I'll respond in my limited way.

I'm a madhatter. I long ago once thought this made us 'more even', somehow. That this situation made things easier to get over.

For me, it didn't subtract the pain of infidelity, it multiplied it.

Thinking of you both.

-JD

I think this whole thread has gotten completely off track. The original poster, TGNM, asked how HE should react to his wife's request.

However, it turned into 8 pages of unsolicited advice for Mrs. TGNM. She didn't ask for anyone's opinion on the matter, and to use the Wayward forum to communicate with her seems inappropriate to me. She sounds like a smart woman. If she wants opinions, she'll ask for them in General.

BS here and didn't see a stop sign. I didn't read all the replies so forgive me if I repeat something already said. Does your spouse want to reconcile? If so, having a revenge affair will not make reconciliation easier. If an action does not build intimacy between a married couple, but does the opposite, it cannot be good for R. I would say no just on the fact that it would make reconciliation that much harder.

I doubt there are many BS's here that had a RA and thought it was really good for reconciliation. I suspect most would say, "Don't do it!"

[This message edited by DMS88 at 1:32 PM, September 16th (Tuesday)]

It always blows me away when there are people that come on SI and advocate cheating or going outside of the M to fix it. I believe we are all here to try to fix that exact problem, not make it worse.

TGNM,

You can't give your W permission, nor with hold it. You simply are not in that position in her life. That is on her. You also don't know how you will react until you are in that position, so maybe that is what she needs to know.

Do you EXPECT forgiveness from her? If you do, maybe you need to re evaluate. If you don't, then she needs to look at herself. This is her fight at this point, all you can do is support from the sidelines and wait to see what happens in the end.