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getting "permission" in advance won't protect her from guilt or TGNO from pain that are likely to result from an RA. And if she thinks of this way, she is likely to be disappointed.

Right, but that was established a long time ago. Now we are trying to support Thatguy in getting her to see that, or at least, to not choose to cheat.

And him granting or not granting permission does not make him responsible for the consequences. She is and has always been responsible for her actions. For the very reasons you mentioned.

And from futher back... All BS's do have options. Nobody said or implied that any of the options were wonderful, just that they existed. Feeling trapped and being trapped are two different things. She has options and she's free to make the one that works best for her. Certainly the lesser of the evils, but the fact remains that she does have options.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 10:09 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

I have absolutely NO freaking clue what my motivation is.

Is related to this:

I am hurt. I am angry. I have been rejected both personally and sexually, and I feel as ugly and unwanted and sad as it is possible to feel. I want to feel attractive again.

You want to feel special, wanted, pretty, and desired. Very much like any affair, you'll get that rush but when the dust settles you'll feel like shit, just as any other W that realizes how much they gave away for a few minutes of validation when reality hits.

Since this discussion has touched on "honesty and integrity" (in regard to telling one's spouse of plans to have sex outside the marriage before following through) I would like to add the following.

By my understanding of it, honesty and integrity are not the same thing. It is possible to be honest and still act in a way that lacks integrity.

One way to think about integrity is that it is a three step process. First, it requires moral reflection: thinking about and deciding on the difference between right and wrong. Second, acting with integrity means choosing the right. And third, it requires a willingness to say that we are choosing based on what we believe to be right.

The situation under discussion seems to be one where the condition of honesty is fulfilled, but not integrity, unless Mrs. TGNM believes that it's right for her to do what she is considering after coming to that conclusion through moral reflection. Had she come to that conclusion, would it still be necessary to ask for TGNM's blessing before proceeding?

Just a thought.

Dead on target evolvingsoul. Every time I am plagued by the fantasy my first step is realizing that I would at the very least be honest about it. But in the end shitty behavior (when stacked against my personal values, others may be different) is still shitty behavior.

EvolvingSoul-

I agree that integrity is really just self honesty. Being true to one's self through reflection.

I hesitate to use the word moral because it often implies living up to religious or societal "rules" which may not be true to one's self.

The two things that seem important in the post are 1) seeing what else is out there and 2) not cheating. I think she clearly found a way to balance between the two without compromising her integrity. Either receive permission or D.

thatguy:

Your wife really articulated her feelings well.

I think the suggestion that you two separate is a good one.

My wayward has also taken that option from me, claiming that if we separate, he will file for Divorce.

That is why although I am staying for my very young children,I am now as I write planning my future escape should my wayward fail to ever demonstrate to me that he comprehends the damage he has done by having an LTA.

Personally as a BS, I really can not fathom how my wayward could say to me that asking for an open relationship so that I could have another side relationship for as long as he had is secret affair, would be a deal breaker for him.

His fear of me having an open relationship, only proves to me that he KNOWS HOW UNBEARABLY PAINFUL THE THOUGHT of me being with another man would be.

Yet, he did it, and did it in secret and expects me to forget it and move on.

His SECRET DALLIANCE took away all my choices, too. Including the choice to opt to have him wear a condom, when we had sex.

I was clueless and vulnerable, while he lied about going out with friends when the truth was he was wining and dining the OW and stole money from our children and family to do it.

At least your wife is being honest.

So perhaps a separation is a good idea, so that she can explore without feeling she has breached some odd code of morality that somehow only applies to a BS

We had trouble with my xAP stalking her.

Thatguy:

I did not know this.

This causes and entire whole other level of damage to a BS. You might want to discuss this with your IC.

As a BS, I, too, am being stalked by the OW.

It adds another extra dimension to the marriage after DDay, that is very hurtful to you the BS.

That guy:

Also, You might want to visit Peggy Vaughn's website. .

She is an infidelity counselor and writes about it extensively, after learning of her husband's multiple affairs.

She writes about having sex openly with another person afterward, just once.

There marriage survived long term afterwards and even thrived.

So, you might want to visit her website.

[This message edited by seethelight at 9:13 AM, September 11th (Thursday)]

From what your BW said and what I've read on here I'd like to say to your BW that I think before she moves forward (even if you give her your "blessing"), she needs to decide what she wants in the relationship with another person.

Does she really want just sex with someone? Does she want a relationship with someone? Does she want a shoulder to lean on? Does she want to play the dating game?

I think that's important to do regardless of whether she sees another man within your marriage (an open marriage agreement of sorts, as I messaged you about) or if she does it after a D. In my opinion it's not a good idea to start seeing other people without knowing your intentions.

so that she can explore without feeling she has breached some odd code of morality that somehow only applies to a BS

The "odd" code of morality applies to both WS and BS. The contract you entered into on your wedding day still applies, even if one person broke the contract.

Does she really want just sex with someone? Does she want a relationship with someone? Does she want a shoulder to lean on? Does she want to play the dating game?

I think that's important to do regardless of whether she sees another man within your marriage (an open marriage agreement of sorts, as I messaged you about) or if she does it after a D. In my opinion it's not a good idea to start seeing other people without knowing your intentions.

Thatguy

Wise words and a gentle unjudgmental approach. If startingfresh is a wayward, he is a wayward who gets it.

I think you are, too, thatguy, because i can feel your pain, too.

[This message edited by seethelight at 9:52 AM, September 11th (Thursday)]

I’m not ashamed to say I’ve been struggling with this desire internally for quite a while now and something seems to have clicked the past few days; please bear with me on this.

It appears to come down to victim vs survivor mentality. After six pages of guidance I think there are people who are at unique junctures in the journey but those emphatically asserting “don’t do it because {fill in the blank}” are concluding from a separate vantage point and have abandoned the victim mentality and exude a survivor mentality instead. That’s not to say at one point they weren’t drowning in the victim role as I believe it is significant we honor that phase of the journey without becoming stuck in it; rather their assistance on this subject has a considerably different tone.

Victims assess other people’s faults as attacks on themselves and that it is their responsibility to reprimand these faults. The thing is, punishment doesn’t necessarily lead to improvement instead merely compliance. Does a child stop skipping nap time to steal from the cookie jar because you spanked them with a wooden spoon, or are they merely being compliant so they don’t get hit by said ‘weapon of (m)ass destruction’? Survivors instead will pursue alteration as it is only when individuals correct their faults that they become free of those faults.

Another difference I’ve observed is individuals who are victimized feel vindicated in abandoning their own integrity. Survivors appear to appreciate that vengeance is not justice, just as punishment is not improvement and while revenge might satisfy in the fleeting moment it will not satisfy for long. I think nearly every BS contemplates this but an individual with a survivor mentality is not overcome by this impulse and instead seeks improvement and recovery.

Another key distinction appears to be fear of allowing the wayward to “get away with it”. How many times have we thought “if I take them back without punishment, they will have gotten away with it”? Simply put this is a coping strategy that employs resistance to try to combat the simple truth: life is not fair. The attraction of this resistance technique is excruciatingly strong and until we cast of the shackles of the victim mentality, we will never be satisfied; it will gnaw away at us until the finish line of our life.

I know it seems like I am saying “get over it” and that will ruffle some feathers, but I am not advocating that in the least. Instead I am surmising that working through our resentment and desire for retribution is a small piece to the overall healing puzzle and hopefully this helps.

What a great post, Mercilessly. I agree with your assessment. I didn't feel like you were saying "get over it" but saying try not to make these kind of choices whilst in the victim mode and to not get stuck in the victim mode. Very well put.

For me there is no way to "see what else is out there" while still married. Because the kind of men who'd date a married woman who is out to "get even" are not the kind of men I find remotely attractive!

Thatguy:

How are things going?

I do think that a person can have an affair and still be a good person at heart.

I hope things work out for you.

DONT GIVE PERMISSION, if she gets a disease or gets all goofed up in the head you have to own part of this.

This is a SHIT test, don't bite. Of couse she could and you canont say no but dont participate in that SIN.

Stay away, if at nothing say, "I will not say yes, and of course I have no right to say no, I wish you wouldn't, I dont want you to get hurt or get a disease, I care about our chances as a couple and doing this only ruins that more, why not give it a few months and if you still think that solves something..we can talk more about, as for this moment, I realize you feel the need to do it, but marrige ISNT A ZERO BALANCE GAME, otherwise every time each of us fail we set up a chance to "get even" and that is no kind of marriage we want for either of us..I'm sorry I fucked up so bad, I wish I could take it back but I cannot..."..

Try that

Edit here: she would also be fucking with somebody elses head too, unless she told the guy, hey this is just sex, nothing else...just to get back at my husband so..FUCK ME...make me into a FUCKER. Good God dont do it.

[This message edited by steppingup at 12:02 PM, September 12th (Friday)]

We've talked about this some, and I'm sure we've much more to discuss.

We went to MC last night. My BW insisted that we not discuss this topic as it is too embarrassing for her, so we talked about how I can deal with her anger in such a way that it shows that I care about her feelings and not just enduring them. On the way home, we discussed the trip to the attorney/mediator we had the day before where we drew up a post-nup/property agreement should we decide to S and D in the future. It included a large financial penalty for me if I have another A, but there was no such clause in the contract regarding her conduct since she has not done anything. She was surprised that I was as agreeable as I was, even generous. That gave my BW some peace of mind and she felt a little relief. I told her that I was willing to do whatever it takes to help her feel secure, even if it does lead her away from me. I told her that I just want to take care of her. That brought us back around to the topic of extramarital sex.

I am still trying to ascertain whether my BW's desire for extramarital sex is solely about getting even or if there were some legitimate need that wasn't being met. To me, my BW's motivation for having extramarital sex is as important as the act itself. I can't support her doing it out of revenge because that's just more bloodshed and doesn't help anyone heal. But if she had some sexual need that she couldn't fulfill within our marriage, I would entertain the idea. The distinction seemed irrelevant to her. She said we should just D if I were so hypocritical as to draw a line in the sand about her having extramarital sex. I told her that I hoped I would be able to forgive her. After all, that's what I'm asking her to do.

To my ears, my BW's angry words sounded like she felt entitled to extramartial sex. What I heard behind her words, I believe, was the feeling that she is entitled to sex and affection with someone who loves her. Paraphrasing now, she said that she has a need to have sex with someone who cares about her, sex that doesn't give her an emotional gut-punch. She pointed out that my infidelities prove that I don't care about her, and she can't see ever having sex with me without feeling second best. She doesn't share my optimism about recovery and rebuilding intimacy.

I appreciate everyone's concern for us. Clearly this topic has struck a nerve with many of you. Mrs TGNM doesn't believe she will carry this out, and the advice you've shared has helped her arrive at that choice. Nevertheless, she is still struggling with this and probably will for a while, perhaps to the point of S and D. I have no idea how this issue is going to play out over the long run. We have much healing work ahead of us.

I told her that I hoped I would be able to forgive her. After all, that's what I'm asking her to do.

Thatguynomore.

I truly believe that you want to save your marriage.

My gut instinct tells me you have truly changed.

Some advice from someone who has had the same feelings as your wife.

IMO, it's important to reassure her that you would HAVE to forgive her were she to experiment with extramarital sex.

Don't give her permission, but please assure her that you WOULD without doubt forgive her.

You expect her to forgive you, right?

Having been in your wife's shoes, I can say that at least for me, and perhaps your wife, the issue was not about revenge.

It was not about trying to retain victim status, either, because a betrayed spouse will lose victim status once they indulge themselves.

Personally as a loyal spouse I don't and never did feel like a victim.

I simply felt outraged by the arrogance of my husbands lies and deceptions and gaslighting. It was so disrespectful and self indulgent.

IMO, and from my perspective, the request for an extra marital relationship for her is about the ego strokes she will get from the extramarital relationship and to know that you would tolerate her self indulgence, as she is tolerating yours.

When someone cheats on a person the loyal person feels like a chump for staying with the wayward.

Personally, I really don't think your wife wants to have extramarital sex. She doesn't seem the type.

But, if she did, and wanted to reconciled afterward, why would that be something you could not forgive?

IMO, when loyal spouses bring this up, it is more about wanting to know that you would do for them, what you expect them to do for you.

It's really that simple, in my case, and perhaps your wife's, too.

Perhaps you need to work on ways to make your wife feel special to you, again.

That's really what she is looking for in this request for extra marital sex. She want's her self-esteem back, she wants to feel desired and special.

Seriously, for me, knowing that my husband would still stick around and fight for our marriage if I did to him what he did to me, would really make me feel special, again.

Maybe that's your wife's thought, too.

But if she had some sexual need that she couldn't fulfill within our marriage, I would entertain the idea.

I don't understand this, and maybe you said it sort of as a hypothetical or in an attempt to empathize with her and support her. But I assume that any potential partner would have the same boy parts that you do. And unlike you, he'd just be using her to get off.

Unless you and your wife completely abstained prior to marriage, I'm going to further assume that she entered the union knowing full well what you had to offer. She made the decision years ago that you were adequately equipped to fill her needs. She doesn't need to look to fulfill anything outside of the marriage. Worshipping that false god is the reason the world needs SI, MC, and other forms of post-infidelity life support. It's the reason we see so much pain on here, daily.

Respectfully, and as someone in her shoes, she needs to snap out of it. And so do you. IMO nothing you have done gives her free reign to defile and devalue the marriage even further. If the marriage is over...so be it. It's over. But if nursing it back to health is the goal, then the time to stop inflicting further wounds has arrived.

Best wishes to you both.

Respectfully, and as someone in her shoes, she needs to snap out of it. And so do you. IMO nothing you have done gives her free reign to defile and devalue the marriage even further. If the marriage is over...so be it. It's over. But if nursing it back to health is the goal, then the time to stop inflicting further wounds has arrived.

this.

and you don't have to forgive anything. Neither does she. Nor do you have to forgive the same things. I don't get why seethelight is giving this advice.

if your wife wants to feel special she should hold true to her values, not seek external validation just to even the score. Believe me, if she goes ahead with this, she'll feel like trailer trash.

Don't give her permission, but please assure her that you WOULD without doubt forgive her.

You expect her to forgive you, right?

I see rachelc has beaten me to it, but nobody ever is required to forgive anybody anything. And many of us WSs never expected, felt entitled to---nor ever even asked for---our BSs' forgiveness.