SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Don't give her permission, but please assure her that you WOULD without doubt forgive her.

You expect her to forgive you, right?

I see rachelc has beaten me to it, but nobody ever is required to forgive anybody anything. And many of us WSs never expected, felt entitled to---nor ever even asked for---our BSs' forgiveness.

I agree totally. Thank you for pointing out that I used a less fitting word.

That guy:

please disregard the word forgiveness

The word that is more fitting would be "acceptance"

With that said, have you asked you wife to forgive your multiple affairs, and do you expect forvness?

Or, would acceptance be okay?

In the end it's his wife's call.

And, I don't think it is up to me to judge her or force my views on her.

She needs to do, whatever feels right to her in order to heal.

For me personally, I decided extra-marital sex would not interest me, and would not heal me.

But to each his own.

Again, That guy, I suggest reading Chapter 8 in Peggy Vaughn's book, the one entitled "open relationships"

Her marriage survived Peggy's extra marital experience.

She had one experience and only one. It was sanctioned and even suggested by her spouse.

Apparently, Peggy really wasn't interested in extra marital sex.

But she did not cause harm to herself.

And, her marriage survived and thrived afterward and until her death.

She also became a world famous spokesman on healing from affairs.

Here is the link to her website (extra marital affairs resource center)

And, the book that describes her extra-marital experience.

http://www.dearpeggy.com/book-descriptions/beyond.html

Thatguy- you are doing well. I'm glad to hear she is starting to lean towards not cheating. She will be thankful she didn't do it, down the road, no matter if you R or D.

Please don't let the guilt you feel be an excuse to accept behavior that is unacceptable to you. And that's a big fat period at the end of that sentence. There are no circumstances that change it. None. And it's not a special message just for you, it's how everyone should operate.

Nobody has to accept being treated in a way that is unacceptable to them. Thinking you should is what will set up the resentment/entitlement cycle. Part of you working through your issues is identifying and changing your unhealthy thinking patterns. This is one of them.

It's not going to do anyone any good if you are already finding excuses to shelve your standards. Your wife can disagree, she's entitled to her opinion. Other people can disagree, they are entitled to their opinions.

I'm not saying this will help your wife or make her feel better. I'm talking about you because you are the only one you can control. You need to be asking more of yourself during this time, not less. Compromising your standards, even for your devastated wife, is a bad idea. There are healthy ways to support her and show your love. Lowering your standards for her is not one of them.

You have to be able to look yourself in the mirror every day and be proud of who you are. You undoubtedly have lots of things to improve in yourself. Don't start compromising that under the guise of helping her heal.

If you two stay together and there are sexual incompatibilities, then you can visit a sexual therapist for help.

I sincerely believe that the need that she is expressing is emotional and not sexual. But the only way to truly feel wanted in that way is to feel wanted in that way. As I said in my first reply to you I do not know any other way for that to be achieved. If I knew I would certainly tell you. Maybe others can be specific. About what worked for them.

My BW believes it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive or accept what I did and yet not offer her the same in return. That double standard says that I'm entitled to more respect than she is. That double standard says I'm entitled to consideration when I gave her none at all.

She does want to feel special and sexy again. I would dearly love to make her feel that way again myself, but she is convinced that I can't and believes it impossible that I ever will given the damage I have done.

I have destroyed her. I have given away intimacy to others. It seems impossible to her that she will ever see herself as special to me. I have abused her trust so much that she won't allow herself to feel sexy with me--she fears comparison, fears feeling pathetic, fears intimacy. She can't be faulted for feeling traumatized.

My BW believes it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive or accept what I did and yet not offer her the same in return. That double standard says that I'm entitled to more respect than she is. That double standard says I'm entitled to consideration when I gave her none at all.

OK. It is a double standard. She doesn't need your permission. She is free to make choices and she is free to live out the consequences of those choices. Same as you. Which if you feel her sleeping with someone else is a dealbreaker, than it is. Period. Amen. She is also free to impose consequences (divorce) on you for your affairs, your expectations of her aside.

Staying with you, forgiving you, accepting what you have done needs to be a freely made choice. It has nothing to do with being entitled to more respect and consideration at all. This is about her and her lines in the sand. This is about her hard limits. Ultimately this is either a dealbreaker for her or it isn't. Giving in on this won't make your R any easier or more guaranteed. It is caustic and toxic to R. Life is full of double standards and unfairness. Part of accepting and forgiving what you have done is accepting that. Maybe that means R is out for you two. She is free to make that choice. You sacrificing your beliefs to try to make this "even" should be a hard stop, no go.

It will never be even, it will always be a double standard and unfair. It just will. In time, if you can rebuild it becomes just a piece of your woven history. Really. I am 5+ years out, so I can say that. I guess what I'm saying is that you lowering your standards to appease her for feeling badly for staying is a loser deal. Nobdy wins in that or becomes even or reduces the double standard horror of what you did. This is about her standards, her lines in the sand, and not yours. I'd hold to that. You can't R without both spouses being all in and her deflecting because she doesn't want to deal with her own conflicting issues/beliefs about staying isn't solid footing for R.

She does want to feel special and sexy again. I would dearly love to make her feel that way again myself, but she is convinced that I can't and believes it impossible that I ever will given the damage I have done.

Time, time, time. Years and years of you doing whatever she needs you to do (within your personal hard lines/limits) day in and day out can rebuild that if she wants to R and if you do the work.

I have destroyed her. I have given away intimacy to others. It seems impossible to her that she will ever see herself as special to me. I have abused her trust so much that she won't allow herself to feel sexy with me--she fears comparison, fears feeling pathetic, fears intimacy. She can't be faulted for feeling traumatized.

She doesn't just feel traumatized, she is traumatized. Terribly so. You have destroyed her. She feels degraded, powerless, and if she stays what does that say about her? Those are very tough feelings to overcome and it takes years and years. Her fears are real for her BUT none of those things will be better by you saying "Sure go for it" to her stepping out.

Stepping out isn't the answer. You lowering your standards isn't the answer. The answer to the real struggle she is having right now lies within her. It isn't about what you would do in some fictional what if scenario..because who really knows? No matter what you say today...it means nothing until you are living it. Most of us who chose to R said we would leave if our spouse ever cheated on us...sooo? This is about what is she going to do in the real life not fictional scenario that she is living day in and day out right now. You need to keep the focus on the right things here.

Best of luck to you both. R is possible and it can work, but your wife needs to know if it is a dealbreaker for her that is OK too. Hang in there, both of you.

great post, nomor!

The fact that it's more important to her to even the score so there is no more double standard than to uphold her own values is concerning.

Maybe this is a test she needs to put you through to see your response. Suppose you tell her this would be a deal breaker for you..she will obviously remind you that your A did not let it become a deal breaker for her & she gave you the gift of R. If it were me I would tell her I understand her thought of wanting to do this & you would give her also the gift of R but only once and then ask her if she truly wants to set back the healing process you have done so far in your M and more importantly if this leads to D later is this something she can live with and tell her about all the guilt you have to deal with that she may also now have to go through. Is she willing to possibly hurt an innocent bystander & live with that also. You have gone thru this & you can explain how this will torment her to the point she may no longer be able to continue a relationship with you & point out the consequences. She may just be looking deeply at your relationship to see if you would be as forgiving as she sees herself. So be very careful about using the words divorce or deal breaker for she is still with you & maybe just testing your talk of loyalty to her.

My BW believes it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive or accept what I did and yet not offer her the same in return. That double standard says that I'm entitled to more respect than she is. That double standard says I'm entitled to consideration when I gave her none at all.

Well, is that NOT true?

It would be a double standard.

I have destroyed her. I have given away intimacy to others. It seems impossible to her that she will ever see herself as special to me. I have abused her trust so much that she won't allow herself to feel sexy with me--she fears comparison, fears feeling pathetic, fears intimacy. She can't be faulted for feeling traumatized.

Unless and until she experiences that feeling with someone new and realizes she still wants to remain married to you, she may never get this feeling out of her system.

Or until this need passes.

As others have stated, I don't think this feeling is about leaving you or even the sex. It's really about feeling sexy and desired herself.

By having multiple affairs you have inadvertently showed her, at least in her mind, that you did not find her sexy nor desirable enough to remain faithful.

It may also, in her mind, be about you having to feel competitive, too, to some degree, IMO.

You had multiple affairs, yet in the end you wanted to stay married and have resolved to change.

But you have ALREADY experienced extra marital sex. She has not.

Sadly you are in a catch 22 or sorts.

I understand your perspective and your probable feelings and fears, but I also understand hers.

[This message edited by seethelight at 2:04 PM, September 14th (Sunday)]

Thatguynomore,

My H had a 7 year (probably more like 8 with the EA part) affair. He also had another EA with an xgirlfriend. I so understand where your BW's head is, especially at around 6 months out.

The pain she is in is a little different because of the LTA. There is something about feeling like so much of your life is a lie. Feeling so worthless that your H has to lie for that long and that much to find happiness or even moments of happiness to fill some void within him, is an incredibly painful realization.

When I look back on my marriage, I am the one who held it all together. I did all the work. I took care of our home, our children and worked full time. He had basically checked out. I feel so stupid now. I feel so taken advantage of. I begged my H to be a partner and he never did. Yet, I stayed And I loved him. And I was faithful. That is part of why I am so angry. Why didn't I demand more sooner? Why did I allow myself to be treated that way. Yes, those are my issues to deal with, but they are still there and part of my own anger and healing process.

I am over two years out. I still don't feel special. I still don't feel desirable. My H tries to make me feel that way, but it just doesn't help sometimes. It certainly isn't about just wanting me in the bedroom. Sometimes I feel like that is just sex. He just needs sex, since he doesn't have an ow to screw at the moment. It is a horrible feeling. It makes sex difficult at times and I can't feel as emotionally connected as I would like. I feel like I can't keep those thoughts from entering my brain, no matter how hard I try.

And when my H tries to tell me that he understands how I feel, he gets the damage he has done, sometimes it just makes me mad. I don't think he can ever get it. No ws can. That is why your BW feels that way. I think I do have an overactive sense of justice. I analyze to the point of exhaustion. I look for logic in something that makes no sense. It is so tiresome. Tiresome and agonizing to the point that we look for a way out of it. Look for a way to make sense of it all. Look for a way to even the playing field again.

I have never had sex outside my marriage. And I never will. But, I understand your BW's desire to do so. I understand the feeling of not knowing what else to do to express her pain. Screaming and crying sometimes aren't enough. The pain is so intense and sometimes we just don't want to be alone in our pain. We want our spouse's to be there with us, but how can you ever be there with her if you don't understand it really? That is what acceptance is to me...not just accepting that this happened to me, our marriage, but accepting that my H will never truly understand the pain he has caused and yet continuing to try and reconcile anyway.

I do love my H. I have chosen to reconcile, but I think the healing process for an LTA adds a few years and a different dynamic. You have so much to rebuild. As do I. I know I can't get my self-worth from my H, but it is taking a long time to rebuild that. Each time I take a few steps forward, I think about some new aspect of my life after knowing about the LTA. Just today I thought of something that happened that was always a fond memory and realized that he was already screwing his AP then. Another memory ruined and another step back. It takes a long time to process this many years of deceit.

I don't think your BW wants to be unfaithful, and I certainly could be wrong, but I don't think she will. I think deep down, she knows that the damage she will do to herself is not worth it. I don't want to ever look in my children's eyes and tell them I cheated. I don't want to look at myself in the mirror and say that either. Maybe to her, at this moment, it isn't cheating because she is being honest. But I think she also knows that she won't get the feelings of being wanted and special from some ONS. They only come from true connection, understanding, partnership, being a team. It won't come from some cheap night of sex to fill the hole she has in her heart. It won't come from lies that some random guy tells her so he can get what he wants. If your BW wants to feel special, that isn't how she will get there. But I get it. I get those feelings. I identify so much with her that it makes me cry.

(Thatguynomore and BW)

Teach8 wrote the following

"But I think she also knows that she won't get the feelings of being wanted and special from some ONS. They only come from true connection, understanding, partnership, being a team. It won't come from some cheap night of sex to fill the hole she has in her heart. It won't come from lies that some random guy tells her so he can get what he wants. If your BW wants to feel special, that isn't how she will get there. But I get it. I get those feelings. I identify so much with her that it makes me cry."

Perhaps herein, is the answer. I agree that a ONS likely won't fill the hole in her heart. There is almost no way it could, IMHO. She wants to be loved as the whole package, and a ONS is not the whole package. The validation for her greatness and special-ness will not come to her through a ONS-cause a ONS is about sex, almost entirely. Anything more than a ONS becomes an A.

And once she is in her own A, it is not hard to see how that won't help reconcile.

I am 3.5 years past DDay, and I am honestly not as damaged as I was in the first year to 18 months. DDay was the worst day of my life, bar none. The entire year after was barely better than DDay. At this point we are making a go of it and I take the pain of knowing I will never be whole, and I balance it with the knowledge that when our marriage was on the brink, I am the one that stood strong, never stopped fighting, never stopped believing, never stopped praying to God that we could stay in our holy marriage and never stopped being there for my kids, never told anyone in my family, did the IC work to make myself better, AND dragged her out of her pathetic fog and lived to tell about it.

If I ever have to answer for who I was in this marriage, I will be proud. Yea, it is unfair as hell. But I was that strong, with grace from above.

I think Teach8 has it right. I hope you both can work through this.

TGNM, I have hesitated to post because I am a BW and I feel much like your BW. I have also brought up a RA for many of the exact same reasons your BW states. It also infuriated me when my WH was being hypocritical by expecting me to forgive him for something he could not/would not be able to forgive me for. In our case, there are OC. I even went so far as to tell him that it would only be fair if I were to have two children with another man.

I can't tell you what your BW is thinking, but I can tell you what I was thinking. First off, my desire for an RA was about getting justice. There is nothing just or fair about being repeatedly betrayed for the greatest majority of my marriage. Right or wrong, my need for justice overwhelmed me. To me, having an RA was a way to tip the scales so that a sense of justice and fairness could be restored. Divorce is also an option.

As for the permission issue, I admit that I would have divorced WH had he not acknowledged that I had a right to do whatever I needed to do in order to heal myself. That does not mean he suggested I have an RA, nor did I truly need his permission to have one if that was what I chose to do. My WH told me that he understood my need for justice and that if it meant that I would have a RA, he understood that also. He told me that he didn't want me to have an RA because he didn't want me to do something that he hates himself for having done. He acknowledged that it would hurt him deeply, but that my pain over what he had done was more important to him than any pain he would feel. He told me that regardless of what I chose to do, he would handle it just as I have had to handle his A's.

WH stepped up his efforts to help me feel desirable again. He constantly tells me all the different ways I am special to him and what he loves about me. I will admit that a lot of times, it falls on deaf ears because his actions in having repeated A's spoke louder than his words. While I don't roll over with hearts popping above my head, I do hear it and it does mean something to me. Maybe with time and persistence, I will be able to someday believe it. What actually means something to me is when he thanks me for giving him a chance to be the man he should have been all along. He does this several times EVERY DAY even now. And he backs it up with his attitude and actions.

Maybe you should ask yourself what you have done to help your BW gain a sense of justice and to restore the fairness in your relationship. Also ask yourself what more you can do to help her regain her sense of attractiveness.

For the record, I have not had a RA. I still think about it from time to time, but it has eased somewhat as WH steps up and fills in the gaps that I wanted to use an RA to fill. I wish you both the best.

Quick question for you, do you expect her to forgive you? IMO, if you do expect it then there is a problem because that is a very entitled attitude. Forgiveness is a gift given from the BS and expecting it is cheapening the cost of that forgiveness.

My BW believes it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive or accept what I did and yet not offer her the same in return. That double standard says that I'm entitled to more respect than she is. That double standard says I'm entitled to consideration when I gave her none at all.

I think your wife is right. This is an incredibly bad double standard. The thing is you can ask for and hope for her forgiveness without expecting it. Acknowledging how shitty of situation it is for her and that you might not be able to do it if you were in her shoes might help her. Not giving her permission, but realizing what you are actually asking from her…hoping she can do it, but not expecting it. Admitting that doing it yourself might not be possible and if she can then she is F’ing awesome.

[This message edited by nomoreplease at 10:03 AM, September 15th (Monday)]

this thread is so perplexing.

the double standard? Really? Do people understand that when they have affairs the biggest double standard they're employing is going against their own values to get even with someone. The biggest betrayal is to themselves.

If a drunk driver runs over my kid does that mean I get to run over his? If you're a BS with justice as your goal, might it be wise to spend some time in IC before you begin that quest?

following the logic on here it would appear I'm owed an affair. Yeah, that would help matters. My husband has zero tolerance for that. As he should. But more importantly, going that route would betray myself. Folks, all we really have here is our integrity. Do you really wanna die thinking, "boy, I got even with him."

OP: I understand your wife's need for validation. But that need should come from deep within her soul because no other person could ever meet it.

[This message edited by rachelc at 10:28 AM, September 15th (Monday)]

Ummm...I don't see this as an A or cheating at all. The harm caused to the BS comes from the lies and deceit not the sex.

She is approaching you in an honest, open, and transparent way. It's (eta:the communication) healthy and mature. It is the opposite of an A.

You have the opportunity to be just as honest and open with her about how you feel about it. You can agree, disagree, or come to some sort of compromise.

I agree. She is requesting an open relationship.

An A is done in secret and takes away the spouses choices.

That guy:

Also you mentioned the post nuptual.

So, I am not sure why you mentioned it, but just so you know.

A post nuptual, in order to hold up in court must be "conscionable"

I am not an attorney, but when I spoke to one they said it means, at least in my state, that the post nuptual can not be grossly unfair.

My post nuptual states that if my husband were to have another affair and I then choose to divorce or he asks for a divorce, I get a majority of the assets and other things I have requested.

He signed it.

But, were I too, just decide to divorce him out of the blue for no reason, the post nuptual would be null and void, even if that is not stated in the post nuptual.

I also don't understand the "double standard" argument. If you stole something from a store (yeah, you'd know it wasn't ok) and went to prison where you learned to control your impulse to steal and then your friend wants to steal from a store and you say, "it's a bad idea," how is that a double standard?

The original standard was to NOT STEAL. You choosing to go against that standard didn't make it right for anyone. The standard would still be that stealing isn't ok. Your friend choosing to steal, or not, is relative to the accepted standards for themselves and/or society, not the mistake you made in going against the standard.

The fact that you wouldn't want your wife to cheat isn't a double standard unless you truly believe what you did was ok. I doubt that's the case. And I doubt your BS truly believes its "okay" so she'd be going against her own standards. Further, once she cheats, is it going to become the standard in your marriage that cheating is okay? Will you just have an open marriage?

If she gets angry and hits you, do you now have permission to hit her back? Where does it end?

As far as forgiveness, neither of you can demand that of the other. Being able to forgive isn't a standard. It's a truly personal choice. Perhaps, if you've made that request, you can take it back. "It was wrong of me to expect your forgiveness. That is up to you."

So much is crazy making in this thread. This is something I recently shared with She-Ra who's BH (now MH) recently confessed his infidelity. (or revenge sex)

It is unacceptable and wrong when a WS does it, it is unacceptable and wrong when a BS does it. Why wouldn't it be? Why do the rules suddenly change for a BS because their WS broke the rules?

It isn't a double standard, it is the standard. When we marry we promise to stay faithful. Thats it.

I feel that is what rachelc and Hurtbuthopeful are pointing out in their most recent posts here on this thread and I agree with them.

Most WS fully expect that their BS's are going to divorce them if they found out about the infidelity, that is why they work so hard to keep them secret. Most WS's are positive they aren't going to get caught,(mine was positive he wasn't going to get caught), so there really wasn't a risk.

the double standard? Really?

I also don't understand the "double standard" argument.

It isn't a double standard, it is the standard. When we marry we promise to stay faithful. Thats it.

Unless I missed something this is where the 'double standard' discussion came from:

My BW believes it would be a double standard if I expect her to forgive or accept what I did and yet not offer her the same in return. That double standard says that I'm entitled to more respect than she is. That double standard says I'm entitled to consideration when I gave her none at all.

For me, the ‘double standard’ comes in the expectation. Expecting something from someone else that you yourself are not willing to offer is a double standard. He can ask for forgiveness and can hope for it without there being double standard, but if he expects it then it becomes one. It is a lack of humility, a failure to grasp the gravity of the situation, and very much says, I’m entitled to things that you are not.

I’m not saying he should give her permission or even forgive her if she does cheat on him, but I am saying he is not entitled to her forgiveness.

The standard is to stay faithful in your marriage.

TGNM broke the rules of the standard. However, the standard of a faithful partner in your marriage still stands, even if one steps outside of the standard.

No, there is no double standard. There isn't one standard for TGNM or his BW. The standard is the same. TGNM's BW's request isn't a double standard, it is changing the original standard. If his BW wants to change the standard, fine, have an open marriage, but that means TGNM now gets to openly have other partners, too.

Yes, the WS's didn't live up to the standard. That doesn't mean the standard has changed.

dou·ble stand·ard

noun

a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

eta:

Expecting something from someone else that you yourself are not willing to offer is a double standard.

I understand what you are saying here. However, my point, and I don't think I am explaining it well, is that we made promises on our wedding day. That was the standard we were going to live by. This "double standard" was not the one agreed upon. It wasn't "I won't have sex with anyone else unless you do first". No, the standard is still to be faithful.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:56 PM, September 15th (Monday)]

I've read and thought about this thread so much. All I keep coming back to is an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

The reality is we live in a world where there are double standards and where life isn't fair. I didn't ask for the shit sandwhich I got fed, but we got though it and not once did I need to lower myself.

Nomoreplease hit it on the head for me- this whole notion of expectations and thus leading into entitlement is where I think a lot of things are getting blurred.

I agree that the double standard argument doesn't apply unless TGNM expects condonation of his infidelity.

There seems to be a misconception among some folks here that a WS who asks for and would like to R thereby expects it or feels entitled to it. Same with forgiveness.

While I'm sure some WSs do feel that way, I'd be willing to bet that attitude is in the minority among those of us WSs on SI.