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Griz, your comment about laundry made me smile. Apparently it's a hot spot for more than one person. I've always felt frustrated over the way by WH has done laundry--totally half-assed...inside out, wadded more the folded, crumpled up sleeves, etc. Meanwhile I've been doing a whole hell of a lot of laundry for our family of 6 for a long time. One of my "small acts of rebellion" post d-day was me giving myself permission to NOT feel resentful over laundry any more. I just stopped folding his. I threw it in a pile on top of the dryer for him to deal with. He asked me why I wasn't folding his anymore and when I told him I didn't want to feel angry about how he did (didn't) folding any more, so I just was going to let him handle his own. He was pissed. Good lord. Entitled much? You're doing good, despite how you may feel. You're putting one foot in front of another. Keep breathing.

My wife seems to think reconciliation depends on me being able to forgive her and move on. I keep telling her that it depends on if she can do the work to make things better and that I don’t think she wants or can handle that responsibility. Of course, she doesn’t like when I say this but that is how I feel. I feel like the truth is so destructive in this case.

You're both right. In order to reconcile, both need to happen. But what your WW doesn't understand at this point, is that her portion has to come first. There is NO WAY that you can forgive her and move on unless she can do the work on her side of the fence. And yup---you are correct in expressing your concerns that she doesn't have the drive or want to better herself. So while the truth may seem destructive, it is only because it is a real possibility.

^^^^ what JB says right there and in short we call this "owning your shit in full". Just something for you to ponder, in some cases going to MC is kind of fruitless right now if the WS hasn't owned her/his shit in full because an MC setting is percieved by the WS as some sort of neutral ground to leverage away consequences for the affair and promises of future fidelity in exchange for concessions in the relationship by the BS. In another case, it is just another item on the checklist to perform to with an exit affair - "see, we went to several MC sessions and my husband is just too stubborn to see things my way or do what's necessary to work on the marriage! It has absolutely nothing to do with the strange dick that I accidentally fell on...over and over again."

So yes, Grizzly, your big challenge here is determining and understanding her real intent going forward. Is her path guided by remorse with a goal of owning her shit, fixing her broken, woman - up (grow from princess to queen), roll her sleeves up and start contributing to the marriage and your healing,

OR

go talk to her lawyer friend and do a pros and cons list on if it's worth doing that hard work of staying in it with you or she can weigh the cost/benefit of can she milk you for as much assets, alimony, CS as possible and live the "you-go-girl" party lifestyle with her boyfriend. All you can do is observe and watch her actions. She's already gone to see her lawyer friend and I'm willing to bet it wasn't to pour her soul out and explain what a big liar she has been all this time and that every undeserved crap she described about you was untrue. Why? Because she hasn't done that for you yet, has she?

Don't play the tit-for-tat style of getting out of infidelity. All that ever does is make her focus on how much she can get away with, testing and pushing your boundaries each time. Go talk to those lawyers now, then hire one and get a divorce petition drawn up and ready to file. Put language in there that benefits you AND your son. Don't think "fair" with regards to her because her lawyer sure as hell wont. They work in the best interest of the client. You method of handling this should be more along the lines "honey, I'm already on the divorce train and getting the hell out if this infidelity. You can either sit at the station and pout about it or start earning your ticket on this journey with me."

Also, it is perfectly normal to be upset with her for making poor decisions. Instead of reacting to it with anger, document her whereabouts (for your lawyer) then calmly call her shit out and let her know that it was not acceptable. You want to see the real her, gauge her reaction to your concerns. It's either "fuck you, grizzly. I can go see whomever I want." kind of response or she can validate your concerns and discuss it with you.

By all means do whatever you can to seperate your son from her pile of shit. What I did is focused all my time and energies on my boys. I scheduled activities with them, I picked them up from school as often as I could get off work early, spent as much time with then as I could. In summary, everything I should do or think I should have done to make me a better father is what i used to guide my relationship my boys. I let them know and feel that no matter the outcome we would come out of it ok and that I am always there for them.

[This message edited by Jduff at 9:14 AM, November 6th (Sunday)]

Jumping in late, a few thoughts. Police event: prior to that you stopped at "the park", walked to the river with son, wife stayed in car. She called or texted someone supportive of her affair - "lesbian in denial in love with my wife". ?this person has positive male relationships + she wants your wife. Your son along for ride-wrong. Children are sponges, don't understand but absorb all feelings/body language. Love both parents unequivocally. This hurts them.

I interpreted advice from "you go girl" friends differently. "Be very careful of the choices you make" - I read as (unspoken-HOLY SHIT GIRL WHAT THE F ARE YOU THINKING), spoken as "be very careful of the choices you are making" -they will have long term irrevocable consequences you have not considered in your fantasy. "talk to me" - did they mean you? If so, I think that is good advise as well.

Family and friends support her "you can stay with me" - a reflection of the lies she has told them about you! Instead of accepting responsibility for her deceitful actions, she chose to throw you under the bus. They are reacting to the situation as she has painted it. If she has any "friends" that actually support a fling/affair, they are not true friends of hers, rather they are using her for something as well. "Numbers" on social media? Who knows. I just know in all the women I have known in my life, I can't imagine any one of them egging me on in an affair. Instead, I imagine them telling me to be very careful of my choices and then distancing themselves from me.

I was a lot like you in my marriage, passive, swept things under the rug, accepted whatever I was given and thought I should be thankful for it. Birthdays: Towards the end, he'd throw me $20 and tell me to go get myself a cake or flowers. He didn't respect me because I didn't respect myself. If I had, we'd never have married. I was an easy way for him to move to the next stage of his life without committing to it. My part: I had such low self esteem, it was an easy way for me to move to the next stage of my life without confronting it, challenging it, and declaring what I wanted/needed.

I feel for you. Hope this helps in some way.

God damn therapists.

Sons of bitches.

They are making me second guess everything I thought and may of the things that have resonated with me on this forum.

We saw a marriage therapist this weekend.

A real wierdo. A new-Age type (I actually really like the guy) marriage counselor. He said some compelling things. He has been in the business for decades and suggested to me that before I get a divorce, I need to do two things. 1. Exhaust all options 2. After exhausting all options being able to look myself and my kid in the eye and saying that I really tried.

Shit.

How can I argue with that? Do I want teach my son that we gave up when things got really hard for dad? Or do I want to teach him that yes, dad got fucked over BIG TIME, but tried to forgive and make the marriage work because that is what marriage is? Trying and working even when it HURTS like hell because you have made a commitment.

Fuck guys. I don’t know.

As a nice guy, my inclination, is to alway try harder. I think you all see that. But I see truth in this argument.

My wife, seems to be making a real effort (for now). She is getting a job. She is busy doing a lot of stuff for the business and our life. She is telling me where she is.

I took your advice and reviewed her deleted texts (the ones that were recoverable) and found them to be underwhelming in terms of explicitness. Maybe all the really dirty ones were not able to be recovered.

But the worst ones were like the following:

Ones that said things like “are you going to be think about me later?”

Response: “mmm hmmmm”

That kind of bullshit. Just stupid.

And others talking about making out for 30 minutes in the park and meeting up after dropping my kid off.

Really horrible shit, but nothing as overly nasty as I thought.

What was bad (as expected) was how she described me to her friends. And this was not clear from her texts, but more from the texts of her friends. As if they were referring back to things that they had spoken about in phone conversations.

They really think I am a monster and treat her horribly.

And you guys hit the nail on the head with that. I am sure that whenever we have a major or minor argument or I suggest that she get a job or get off her ass and do something with her life, princess got upset and called up the you go girls and told them that I was abusive and mean.

And there were clear calls in the texts from lesbian friend to “leave him!” and “get away from him” and “get out of there” and “don’t engage with him” and “years of emotional abuse”. Pretty surprising to me. As I have said many times, I am not perfect nor have ever claimed to be. But abusive and overbearing. Give me a break. That is all hysterical fiction on the part of my wife.

Lesbian friend is no friend of the marriage. (lawyer friend did not know about the affair as it was ongoing btw) And it is a requirement for any R that she not be a friend of my wife. That is the one thing she has resisted more than my other requirements.

Wife appears to be reading those healing books.

New Age therapy guys asked me to do something that I could not quite do. He said at the end our session that we both need to make a 9 month 100% commitment to the marriage and not be half assed about whether we are going to stay together or not. Either make a commitment or move toward separation.

I see some wisdom in this. My wife readily agreed. I could not. I will give her a list of my requirements for a 9 month commitment at our next therapy session and if she can abide by them perhaps I will be able to make that commitment and go ALL IN to reconcile as they say.

If she can’t, then no.

She made me a chocolate lava cake with a scoop of vanilla ice cream. It was pretty good.

She has been cooking (not great, but edible food) and keeping the house clean.

She has gotten 2 job offers so far and we are deciding which one she will take in addition to working in my business.

There are signs that she is taking this seriously. For how long, I have no idea. What she did was clearly shameless. (Why don’t people have shame anymore?) She seems to realize this and seems to understand that she wants to be a better person and role model for our kid. All words, I know. I suggested to her that she lied to everyone. Me. Herself. All of her friends. And she said for the first time, “I know. You’re right.” Again, no satisfaction in being correct on my part. But maybe her eyes are starting to open. Still just words.

We went for a family walk to one of her old fucking grounds. It was very painful for me. I made it as fun for my boy as I could and he was having a great time. By the end of the day, I couldn't take it anymore and had to walk ahead of them. Just way too painful to know that we had been there so many times as a family and I was always present and with my family and my wife was probably thinking of the other man, and also was with him in the same spot (often hours earlier). Excruciating.

Software problems with the recorders fixed. Will be deployed soon.

Micky God bless you! I loved your story! It made me laugh out loud. I never realized how laundry could be such a powerful weapon in a marriage. How absolutely insane is that? Can you imagine telling this story to newlyweds or high school kids? No way they could relate. And six kids? That is unimaginable to me. You’re very lucky to have such a big family. I hope things are going better for you and your family.

Jduff. As usual you make excellent points. Both in leveraging the MC to get concessions from me and possibly to use failed MC to say that I was too stubborn and the failure to reconcile is my fault despite all of her efforts. (I have to say the falling on the dick image was hilarious even under the circumstances. I’m not so depressed anymore that I can’t appreciate hilarious comments like that.) These are observations, to me anyway, are not obvious and come from someone who has been there no doubt. I am taking your advice.

Thanks for your note positively. A lot of wisdom there. Especially regarding the you go girls. I think you are right, there is co-dependecy between my wife and the lesbian in denial especially. She supports anything and everything that my wife says and does. I also think she has a secret crush on my wife. In addition to that, the lesbian in denial recently got a divorce herself and wants to have a buddy to go out and have fun with. Another single divorced lady. I have seen this in texts from her to my wife. Its infuriating to me.

At least now I can function again. I still don’t regularly sleep well but I can think and function and perform complex tasks without getting confused. Thank god.

Lately (and by that I mean in the last 36 hours) I have been able to be more regularly civil. No more outbursts. More honest exchanges. A lot less yelling. Just calm explanation. I hope I can continue this.

The New Age guys also said something else that struck me as being true. “The more you practice something, the better you get at it.” The more I think about things and get angry about them, maybe I’ll get better at being angry. But there is another dimension to this. The more your visualize and think about something, the less it has an effect on you. I think that is why I needed to see these places, read the text, hear the gory details. So that I could absorb them, let them wash over and through me, and then let it all go. Not for my wife, but for my own sanity.

I think this all comes down to what you guys say so often. It’s just healing from this gaping wound. This is all just healing.

After exhausting all options being able to look myself and my kid in the eye and saying that I really tried.

How can I argue with that? Do I want teach my son that we gave up when things got really hard for dad? Or do I want to teach him that yes, dad got fucked over BIG TIME, but tried to forgive and make the marriage work because that is what marriage is? Trying and working even when it HURTS like hell because you have made a commitment.

I said the exact same thing. I wanted to be able to look my kids in the eye and say I tried.

My problem was I kept giving more chances. I didn't hold to my boundaries, my requirements: NC? New guy? Ok, one more chance.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving it ONE more shot. Letting WW show she's remorseful. But that puts the burden on the WW to actually DEMONSTRATE that she has changed. Not just say it.

Which is why this -

He said at the end our session that we both need to make a 9 month 100% commitment to the marriage and not be half assed about whether we are going to stay together or not. Either make a commitment or move toward separation.

- is bullshit, and why we tell folks not to do MC for a while, but to do IC.

You can't make a "100% commitment to the marriage" if you haven't even processed what WW did. You can't commit if you don't know if she will cheat again, or isn't truly sorry. Those things take time to determine and that's what you both need to work out. In IC.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to respond to that demand (100%) with this:

I am not going to pursue D at this time, but I want to take the time to understand what all this means to me and for WW to understand why she chose to do what she did and make the appropriate changes to ensure that she is a safe marriage partner. I will give her the chance to do that. That is the gift I will give her.

It says you are still there in the marriage, but SHE needs to do the heavy lifting. There is no false equivalency between her affair and you watching one too many football games on Sunday. She fixes her shit first, then you talk about your failings. (Meantime, work on you failings, yourself and become a better you - the 180).

[This message edited by WornDown at 4:27 PM, November 7th (Monday)]

Grizz,

You have a great grasp of things. Your way ahead of schedule. The one thing to keep in mind, these friends are only going by the info your wife has provided, make no mistakes about it your wife is the one who set the narrative of what her friends think of you. I went through the exact same thing in my marriage.

This is your wife, I'm all for reconciliation when the spouse is truly remorseful and owns their mistakes. Just make sure you have that before deciding to R.

CDB

Waiting for 6, 9 or 12 months is a fairly common suggestion from a MC. It's aimed at giving a bit of stability and allowing some time for things to be worked out. It can be a positive/productive time or it can be used to setup false R by an unremorseful WS.

The path that you've been down so far is one of opening your eyes to the Mr Nice Guy in you and the manipulative victim in your wife. This has been critical for you as you can't reconcile on your own and trying to do so typically leads to rugsweeping and future pain. You are now entering a new phase to your story though. Having your eyes wide open and having started to define what your own needs/boundaries are going forward, you now need to decide if reconciliation may be possible or not. The fact that you went to MC suggests that you think there is a chance.

So your "homework" is to discern whether your are seeing real progress in your wife or just actions to avoid consequences. You need to weigh whether she is showing you actions that help you feel loved and respected and if she is doing work to begin earning your trust. Given some of the things you've said, she is taking some positive steps while being very reluctant in some significant areas. I think you could make a statement, either directly to your wife or at the next MC session, that would go something like...

"I understand that things don't change overnight and I'm open to committing to a length of time for us to work on things together. However, I've come to see that what I really need out of our marriage is love and respect. In addition, due to the affair, my trust has been shattered and I also need to see consistent actions to help me trust you.

The actions that have already communicated that you are trying to show me love and respect are.... (fill it all in, but the lava cake, cooking and job interviews stand out). Areas that cause me to continue to struggle are... (fill this in too, but being aligned with people who aren't friends of the marriage speaks to them being more important than you). These are the areas that are making it difficult for me to commit to 9 months."

And then let your wife respond. Hopefully there is a sliver of understanding and empathy and your MC is a help in mediating the discussion along with encouraging your wife to move in an appropriate direction. While I hope that you don't see it, be ready to not accept, either from your wife or the MC, anything like "You need to let go of that", "That is in the past", "That is being controlling" or "That's her support network" because all of that is manipulative and disrespectful to you and what you've been through.

If she isn't ready to give you what you need to rebuild trust and to feel loved and respected, then her "commitment" for 9 months doesn't mean a thing.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 5:19 PM, November 7th (Monday)]

Said it once before... but will say it again. Under your circumstances if you live in a state that allows for post-nuptial agreements you REALLY need to consider getting one. With a new business started you have a lot to loose if the reconciliation does not work out.

Your wife is not ready to reconcile. Maybe she is getting there.

She has to tell her friends the truth about you.

She has to SET THINGS STRAIGHT and MAKE THINGS RIGHT.

Griz, it's like you are in the desert, you are so thirsty for this, you are looking at a mirage.

When she has done the things you've asked, and willing to do so because she caused this, and she was WRONG, then she will be ready.

She is nowhere close.

before I get a divorce, I need to do two things. 1. Exhaust all options 2. After exhausting all options being able to look myself and my kid in the eye and saying that I really tried.

What does "exhaust all options" mean? How about it if she says she gets to have only two affairs a year? Hey, that's not too bad, it could be a lot worse, she could easily have an affair a month. But really, what the heck is that all about? You can never stop exhausting all options, there ALWAYS will be more options.

And "really tried"? Bullshit too.

How about this, griz? How about you give her a REQUEST, not a DEMAND, but a REQUEST? And those requests can be

1. she gets a job (talking about it doesn't count, she actually has to have one) (and I really personally half-way thinks the job is a terrible idea with a cheater like her how says nothing but bad about you, because every dude she works with will see that as an open door to cheating, and she really will be in the affair-a-month club; but still, she has too much time on her hands and she spends that time doing zero cooking and little cleaning and plenty of making out and badmouthing you to the you-go girls; and, on top of that, I'm not sure she is cut out to have a job, unless she is the owner of the business) sorry I went off the rails on number one there

2. Set the you-go girls straight, UN-BADMOUTH YOU, she is very vocal in her lies, let her open her mouth in the truth.

3. Get rid of the you-go girls who encourage her to leave the marriage. To be honest, that is not required IF she sets them straight. I mean, what the heck do you think the you-go girls are going to say if your wife constantly badmouths you?

4. Whatever else that is reasonable to give you assurance she is committed to the marriage.

You need measurable actions. Not "really tried" and "exhaust all options." Those are great as CONCEPTS, but what would those concepts look like in concrete actions?

1. Exhaust all options 2. After exhausting all options being able to look myself and my kid in the eye and saying that I really tried.

Wk55 beat me to it. What is exhausting all options? It is a generalizing, bullshit statement. Hell, becoming a cuckold is an option, but I wouldn't recommend it. And if the counselor doesn't think that you have your child's best interests at heart, as in a lack of your 'trying', then he really isn't offering much.

I'm not telling you to dump him; I am just letting you know that it is okay to call him out on things like this. His words aren't gospel, but he is trying to help you save your marriage(for a fee, of course), and he is using his best judgement. Just as you are trying to use yours.

How can I argue with that? Do I want teach my son that we gave up when things got really hard for dad? Or do I want to teach him that yes, dad got fucked over BIG TIME, but tried to forgive and make the marriage work because that is what marriage is?

You also want to teach your son what love, respect, and trust are about....without compromising your integrity. You can reconcile with integrity, but only if your moral standards are met. No matter what, infidelity is a huge shit sandwich that we have to eat, but we DON'T have to be forced to eat seconds.

Nor should we. Once is way more than enough.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 7:13 PM, November 7th (Monday)]

Grizzy,

your WW really needs to clean uour name with all her friends that she badnouthed you.

You dont nred her friends to say lies to your kid about how a bad person you are.

if sje is keeping contact with any friend she needs to tell the true. of course friends that knew before you needs to be gone for good

Grizzly, just wanted to stop in and say that I'm still praying for you.

[This message edited by Wool94 at 5:29 AM, November 8th (Tuesday)]

I will give her a list of my requirements for a 9 month commitment at our next therapy session and if she can abide by them perhaps I will be able to make that commitment and go ALL IN to reconcile as they say.

Here is what I don't understand. This was a 9 month sexual affair (with STD). If you are committed to 100% Reconcile does that mean all is forgiven and forgotten while you work on the marriage? This is a woman that was able act like a happy wife and mother while you were home but was badmouthing you and the marriage and having sex with her boy friend while you were gone. If the focus is going to be on rug sweeping. I think you are setting yourself up for a very difficult time. You see her doing good things right now... what about in a month when the job is too hard and she quits...what about when you two have an argument and she runs off with the phone....or disappears with her goGirls? Arguments when she stays out past 1:00am with her "friends" ... does that put the blame on you because you don't trust her and yet you said you had forgiven and forgotten the affair.

I know you want to save the marriage but I'd make sure you don't rugsweep the affair...On your list of requirements I'd say that she remains working for the full 9 months... I'd say she gives up the friends that were not friends of the marriage. Open access to her email and other accounts and that she not trash you to her friends.

You might want to ask her to take a polygraph. My main concern is if this was her first LTA. Her extreme need for additional attention and affection (OM,gogirls) and how easy it was for her to switch back and forth from happy wife/mom to unhappy wife/mistress makes me wounder if there were other Affairs. You could try adding this to your list of requirements and tell her it's just to see if she has had additional physical, emotional, or email affairs so that you can start off on a clean slate.

I would also continue with the VAR. If she is telling you one thing and her "friends" another you need to know. DO NOT EVER EVER EVER TELL HER ABOUT THE VAR. You might get mad after hearing a conversation with her about you but you will not be able to tell her about the VAR or how/what you found out.

I guess what I'm saying is to do what you feel is best, but don't set yourself up. So, that your marriage problems become about YOU not trusting her, or being controlling, or about her not holding a job and gossiping with go girls. Yes, these are problems but they became problems because of the Affair... that you will have swept under the rug, with your promise to forgive and forget and put 100% into the marriage.

Wanted to add... I think the go girls need to be cut out of your life/marriage. Sure she can tell them that she lied about you but...they knew she was having an affair and felt it was fine. When she complains about you in a couple of week they will be right back to cheering her on. I doubt WW felt she was lying at the time...she was just seeking support.

I also think you still need to have a consult with a lawyer to see if there is anything you can do about the business now in case this does go to divorce....for all you know her lawyer friend gave her advice about it. Lawyer friend might have told her to stick it out 9 months so that she gets a better percentage of the business... or something.

[This message edited by Freeme at 8:30 AM, November 10th (Thursday)]

One thing that may help you. My wife and i keep mutual friends of the family. We barely do anything anymore without the other. That's how she wants it and i love it. Like i think i asked earlier, have you guys found a good church? Not just for the pastor but because some of those people can be true friends of the marriage. You need somebody besides us in your corner. You are doing a great job though.

I have read but have not yet responded to the posts that you guys have written. I will respond and update in due course. But I wanted to share something with you.

I have been busy with work responsibilities and have not had the time or energy to come on here. But I was up early this morning.

When I get up early, I go to the basement. The house is quiet. Everyone is asleep and I have the luxury of a little time to myself and privacy.

Usually I take a few moments to get on my knees and pray. I do this sincerely and with humility. I have been doing it for several years nows. It calms me and relaxes me and is a good way to start a day, when often the divine is overlooked because of more pressing, earthly matters.

I ask God to bless my mother (deceased), and my son. I ask him to bless my wife, and our family. I ask him to help me become a better father, husband, and the best at what I do professionally

I ask him to give my son happiness and good health, and my wife peace of mind and happiness.

I ask for good health for myself.

I then think about all of the blessings in my life and give thanks and feel gratitude.

I don’t tell anyone about this. It sometimes feels silly and superstitious. And I would often worry that someone would wake up and come to the basement and see me on my knees praying. It happened once, and I was mortified. I don’t know why. But my wife saw me and we never spoke of it. (probably some idiot nice guy pathology that I have always worrying about what others think of me).

I took some time away from prayer and cursed God after I found out about the affair. How could He allow that to happen? I was (and am) so angry.

But I started praying again yesterday and again today.

I am sure many of you do the same. You probably have similar prayers and hopes for yourselves and your families.

But I can not pray for my wife anymore. I leave her out. I don’t mention her. It feels like a hole I am stepping over when I’m saying my prayers. But I can’t do it. I just can’t. Not now.

I have to go to work.

It is understandable, Grizzly.

I pray often; several times a day. I pray with my son; my wife; with other believers.

Never feel shame for humbling yourself in front of your maker.

You may also add to your prayers that He help you set aside your anger towards your wife, that He help you forgive her.

Keep in mind forgiving is not forgetting. You can forgive her and still dump her flat on her ass. Resenting someone is like drinking poison and expecting the person you resent to die; it is senseless and toxic. Yet... all of us (yes, me as well) do it.

Pray for Him to help you let go and forgive not just her...but also yourself. Some of the anger you feel is actually anger at yourself for not taking the right steps early enough.

No matter what happens, brother, you will be okay.

One of the things you will learn in your journey out infidelity is to evolve from being the Nice guy into an Authentic man. From now on you should strive to live authentically, grizzly. Accept who you are and do not be afraid to show it because there so much good in you, so much strength and compassion, and evidently your faith that needs to come forth.

Grizzly, I'm glad to hear that you are turning to the right one for help. Never be ashamed of your faith or praying. It's definitely not superstition. I also pray for every one that I read on here. I'm not saying to let go, but it is getting to be able to pray that she understands what she has caused. If that makes sense. Peace brother.

[This message edited by Wool94 at 9:42 AM, November 10th (Thursday)]