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When I was a boy my father used to beat the shit out me, my brothers, and my mother. After my parents separated and prior to their divorce we kids were abducted and taken away from our mother as way for my father to hurt her. He abducted us as we were walking home from school. We were taken out of state (and eventually out of the country). Before we flew out of the country, my dad had us call our mom and curse and swear at her on the phone. We were all reluctant to do so but scared and too young to not listen to our father. So we swore at her and cursed her on the phone. I did it too. I still remember that beige phone and the twinkling city lights outside of our hotel room. I remember my mother crying on the other end of the connection.

Now here I am. Decades later. I have to be out of town for several days away from my son on business. The holidays are coming up. I need to have some time with own family - even though they are nuts (well meaning nuts for the most part). I want to take my son with me and not my wife. But I don’t want to be the man who is separating his boy from his mother. I don’t want to be the guy who uses his kid as a pawn to hurt his mom who I am still very angry with.

I don’t think she deserves to have Thanksgiving with us. She can hang out with her you go girls or do whatever the hell she wants. I want to have some time with my son and with my crazy family. We always spend the holidays with her family. I have never objected to that. This year is different.

Given this history. Can you tell me, am I deluding myself that this is just about me spending time with my boy or is this punishment and me using my son the same way my father used us?

Obviously I would not be abducting my boy. She would know where is he at all times. We would FaceTime with her so they could say goodnight. I have never and don’t intend to bad mouth my wife to my son. And we would come home after the Holiday.

Thoughts?

There is no correlation between what your father did and your need for separation from your wife.

Not even close. Your wife has shaped your lives by her actions. She has to deal with it as well as you have to.

You seem to be looking for guilt. Stop it!!!!!

You didn't set this in motion you are just dealing with it.

I think your emotions are true, and you have differing feelings based on your wife, who you can't figure out what is going on in her head, and your kids and wanting them to be happy, and hurting your wife, and you avoiding pain of seeing your wife be happy with her kids and family as if nothing has happened. It's all in there. It's conflicted, and there are other people having feelings, like your kids and your wife.

I think you have to communicate with your wife. Holidays are coming, Thanksgiving is the first. If you are going to legally separate or divorce, there is a precedent to how these are generally handled - usually there is an agreement as to where the kids go with which parent on which holidays.

I think you have to consider first and foremost for your kids. I think the kids going with you and not your wife are fine, but consider that she is going to want the kids to come with her without you on another holiday.

You don't need a "war" fighting over who gets the kids. It's best if you can agree with your wife. And consider your kids' wishes to the extent it is realistic given the adult problems that the kids won't fully understand.

I don't see it as a form of punishment, but more as a time for you to get some much needed love and support around you. Your willingness to FaceTime with her shows that you aren't trying to use your son as a pawn to hurt her.

Her not being invited to spend time with your family is a consequence of her actions. Nothing more.

Your own FOO (family of origin) story likely has a lot to do with how you became a Mr Nice Guy. On a conscious and subconscious level, you likely have tried everything you can to avoid being like your father. There is much for you to sift and sort out there as part of your healing, but you've been doing a great job of it so far.

The lesson you learned from your dad about using kids as pawns was largely a correct one though -- it should be avoided as you are living proof of the wounds that it can leave behind. The fact that you purposefully want to tread carefully with your son is a healthy thing.

I'll give you a story of my own as an answer. Just months after DDay, I was given a "Club" trip (basically, a work bonus) to Paris for myself and a guest. I really struggled with the thought of going alone or bringing someone else (e.g. a son or a friend) as I was still very angry with my wife, didn't want to somehow "reward" her with a nice trip so soon after DDay and didn't want to revert to be Mr Nice Guy. I received the advice to ponder what progress my wife was making and, since I was open to trying to reconcile if possible, to consider what message I'd be sending if I chose not to bring her along. I invited her to join me. It was awkward at times, but it was a step towards healing.

So where does your wife stand? Have you been back to MC? Have you posed your concerns about her friend who encouraged the affair and, if so, has she committed to you over her?

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 11:32 AM, November 11th (Friday)]

But I can not pray for my wife anymore. I leave her out. I don’t mention her. It feels like a hole I am stepping over when I’m saying my prayers. But I can’t do it. I just can’t. Not now.

I think the important things are (1) you are still praying, (2) it is a safe space/time for you and (3) you can be authentic. Go ahead and struggle. Pray what you feel and think. Ask for wisdom, peace, strength, healing and anything else you need.

Given this history. Can you tell me, am I deluding myself that this is just about me spending time with my boy or is this punishment and me using my son the same way my father used us?

You're not deluding yourself. Your situation is nothing like the unfortunate situation you had to endure with your father. You're not taking him to hurt her. You're not going to alienate him from her with harassment or anything like that. You're taking him because you want to spend time with him and your family together and can't bring her as a consequence of what she has put you through. Make it clear to her that you will be bringing him to Thanksgiving at your family's house this year and that you need space from her while you're there. There's nothing wrong with wanting to take a break from this hell with people you love and trust.

I am having a bit of an emotional meltdown today. I guess that is a bit of an exaggeration. No tears or crazy outbursts. I just can not concentrate or think straight. So I took the rest of the day off. I really can’t afford to. But I did anyway. I have been thinking about all the things that my wife has done. How cruel they were. And for how long she was doing those things. Black hearted.

I was talking with a colleague about this yesterday and he was stunned. He could not believe it. He knows me. He knows her. He could not believe she could do the stuff that she did. And when I saw the horror of it all in his eyes it just made me feel worse. It just confirmed to me that I am not crazy. That I am not overblowing things. That what she did was as horrible as I think it was. I think I have been subject to a lot of pain in my life and tend to minimize things so I can function. Seeing his reaction was revealing. She was cruel and calculating. And I didn’t even tell him everything.

She has enrolled in a 12 step program for children of Alcoholics. She has the fucking time to do that. I can not even find a time to meet my therapist because of my schedule. How the hell am I going get therapy and run my business with so much chaos in my life right now.

And more shit. Her therapist says our marriage therapist (who I actually kind of liked) is “crazy, creepy, and she would not recommend him to anyone.” I think for one therapist to be bad mouthing another is very unprofessional. But what the hell do I know. So my wife doesn't want us to see him anymore. And a seed of doubt has been planted in my mind about him now. How the hell can I get therapy or marriage counseling if our fucking counselors are bickering and shitting on one another? What the hell is wrong with the world?? So we have to find a new god damn MC now.

Who has time for all this crap?

VARs are in play. What a pain in the ass they are.

The more time that passes and the more I think about it, the more I think you are right Worndown. I feel like I can handle and possibly forgive this shit and try to move on because of our boy and because sometimes I think she is making an effort. And then something happens and it all comes flooding back and I am enraged or tearful. Or she gives me platitudes about how she “can’t change the past past and wants to improve herself and wants to move forward and she understands how she has let me down and betrayed me and how she would understand if I left her but all she can do is try to be a better person and be honest.”

She was crying for herself the other day for being the child of an alcoholic. She looked up the personality traits for such a person and said she fit every one (she does fit many of them). And she cried for herself. Of course, she wanted me to comfort her. I did.

I feel that something has snapped inside me. The feeling that there was solid ground under my feet is gone. I am walking on mush amongst land mines and quicksand. In the dark. Carrying my boy. I can never feel settled for fully at ease. I don’t sleep well even though I’m exhausted. Even sleep medications don't help. I am up at 3 or 4 in the morning. Lying awake. Staring at the ceiling. I worry more. About my business, about my son, about myself.

To date, I don’t think she has told any of her friends or family my side of the story or the extent of how she has hurt me. I can hear their conversation now:

I hurt Grizz.

But he was emotionally unavailable and you deserve better.

I lied to him a lot.

But you were protecting yourself. You didn't know what he would do if you told him the truth.

I went too far with OM

But you were friends and got really close. These things happen. Maybe Griz is not the right guy for you. Everything happens for a reason. There is someone better out there for you and your son.

I should have gotten a job.

But you are a mom, and that is the toughest job in the world.

etc…

I am not kidding. This is how the conversation will go. I know her idiot friends and her family. She can do no wrong. It is impossible. They will always justify and excuse her behavior. Especially when I am the evil husband.

I didn’t want to, but I did ask her to tell the truth to her friends and family. She said she would. I don’t think she has. I don’t think she will unless I pester her. And I don’t want to pester her about it. It should come from her. She should want to set the record straight just as you said wk. Time will tell. But so far I am not very impressed on this front.

Freeme you have dropped a lot of truth in what you wrote. I have no trust in her now. I am away for days at a time to set up the business and work. She could be doing the exact same things and could have just gone underground doing it. I don’t think she is, but I had no clue before either. The VARs have revealed nothing so far. And surveillance becomes a full time job. I don’t have the time for that. There are not enough hours in the day. I don’t have the energy.

You are also correct in saying that the issue of the Affair could very easily (in her mind with the support of her family and the gogirls) be transformed into me being intrusive, controlling, and overbearing. I will tell you this. I NEVER looked at her phone, opened her mail, or went into her office (other than to get stamps). (She actually called it her office. Hasn’t worked a day in her life over the past 5 years and she had an office. Ridiculous.) She had complete privacy and trust. I never told her who she could or could not see or hang out with. I hated her friends but never said she could not spend time with them. Never.

Now I can hear her (or her idiot friends) saying. Griz can’t tell you who to see, where to go, what to do. Thats abusive! He’s trying to control you! Or some such bullshit. These are the kind of people I am up against. She is unwilling to dump them as friends. And that might be a deal breaker for me. I have said that at a minimum I don’t want her talking about our relationship with them. I am not even sure if she is sticking by that. I have no fucking way of knowing. I can’t (and have no desire) to watch her 24/7.

I have said, that we need to join a church and have mutual friends and new active hobbies in common. She says she is on board with that. But who the hell knows. We are in the middle of a big household move (on top of everything else), so if and when we get “settled” into the new house and town maybe that will be a possibility.

Farside, you make such an excellent point about resentment. I am poisoning the hell out of myself. I am so angry. I don’t feel like my chest can take it sometimes. These feelings are so toxic and only I feel them. My wife has no idea what it feels like. I’m sure she is going through her own stuff, but my God, this is terrible. My colleagues and my employees look at me and just see that I am behaving oddly. That I am distracted and lacking my usual focus.

One day is great and I’m full of optimism and hope for the future. The next day my eyes well up when I see a stupid FB post about family. And my family is so small. We are three people. How do you divide 3 and keep everyone whole?

For me prayer is necessary. I can’t get through this myself. And you guys are right. I should not give a shit who knows that I need to pray.

I had a thought about the Holidays. I was thinking that if I take my boy with me to see my family for Thanksgiving, my wife (just writing the word “wife” has a sick feeling associated with it now) will have the opportunity to tell her family the truth about what has been going on in her own way and set the record straight. Then over X-mas we can all go to see her family (my boy will love that) and at least I won’t be showing up as the Devil and the visit may be more authentic. I don't know. As you say wk, I am very conflicted about all of this. It may come to it. But I am not yet ready for the separated or divorced mindset of different holidays and custody and all that stuff. Not yet. Probably soon. But not yet.

And thank you all for the reassurance. I am very paranoid about trying to not screw up my boy with all of my personal issues and this issue with my wife. But as someone said, kids are so sensitive and they see and feel any tension in the house and know when things are not natural and normal. He was getting speech therapy for a stutter. It was almost gone. Now its starting to come back a bit. So I don’t want to traumatize him. I think spending time apart would be good for my state of mind and allow me to really connect with him in a way that I can’t do when I am working or away so much.

He misses me and I miss him terribly.

And thank you Crushed. You are absolutely right about me and my father. NMMNG hit me like a ton of bricks because the correlations were so obvious in my case. And I appreciate your story. I did something very similar. After I found out about the tip of the iceberg regarding her infidelity, we all went to FL for a week. We spent time together and talked a lot. But when we got back, I found out that she didn’t tell me MOST of what happened. And that made things even worse because I gave her plenty of opportunity while we were away in FL. She said, she didn’t tell me because she knew it would hurt me. Pure bullshit. So no more trips for her.

I have gotten by with such little support in my life that just a little goes an incredibly long way. I am making it a priority to try and meet people and am trying to find a local men’s group so I can get to know and make some friends. It’s pretty hard when you are an adult, very busy, and have a lot of chaos going on in your life. I have reached out to a couple of people with not a lot of success so far. I am not going to give up.

I think if I can make just a few real friends, my life will change dramatically for the better. I have spent too much time and energy focused on my wife. Old habits die hard, but this habit needs to go. She doesn’t deserve it after all that she has done to hurt me and wreck our family.

I just read:

The Healing Library

Symptoms of the Wayward Spouse and Recognizing Withdrawal

And I want to vomit.

I have zero sympathy.

What a disgusting article.

We totally get it. Your world was destroyed by the person you trusted the most. I too get how hurtful it is to find out your favorite special places are now part of a tragic story it happen to me also. I loved a place called the hood canal our family camped there many many times it was beautiful. Later when I found out my husband had an affair with our then daughter n law I can't stand the thought of the place and plan to never go there again. You ww needs counseling. Your not the problem. She has some issue like love addiction, sex addiction or attachment disorders. You need to get ic also to help you through the god awful emotions. I'm three years out and just went back to ic. There are triggers, PTSD and other issues with this. Your not alone. That marriage is gone but you can build a new one if that's your choice and she does the work. My h was a repeat offender and destroyed my life and family.

She is unwilling to dump them as friends. And that might be a deal breaker for me.

If she is unwilling to dump anyone that encouraged her in the affair, her promise of being "100% committed" for 9 months is worthless as she isn't accepting consequences or being remorseful. At this point she isn't reconciliation material and you should be choosing your actions, including Thanksgiving plans, accordingly.

I am very paranoid about trying to not screw up my boy with all of my personal issues and this issue with my wife.

While it is an absolute hell living through this, you've been given the "gift" of seeing the NMMNG in yourself due to the circumstances and that allows you to change and for you to prevent unconsciously modeling that behavior any longer for your son. The best thing you can do for him is to heal, gain strength and to love him.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 3:08 PM, November 11th (Friday)]

You can pretty safely judge someone by the counsel they seek, and with whom they choose to spend their time.

Grizzly, I know you don't want to hear this, but if the conversation with her friends/family actually goes that way, and you are not actually catastrophizing (which I think you may be), she deserves to be your ex. Period. She needs to be on the curb with yesterdays trash, if it would have her.

You are making two mistakes here. First, you are placing yourself in the victim chair. Yes, you are a victim, but that does not mean you need to make decisions like a victim. You do not deserve to be in this situation. Start acting like you are actually trying to pull yourself from it, rather than staying put do to fear.

Second, and directly related to the first, is that you are not holding the line on your boundaries. A boundary is a hard line in the sand that is not crossed without serious consequences. If it is important enough to declare a boundary, it is important enough to enforce.

You have laid out what you need. She is simply not doing it, or she is delaying as she wants to do it on her time, or whatever her reason may be... A boundary is not a shade of gray. A boundary is black or white. It is honored, or there are consequences. I totally get that the consequences may not be ideal for you either, but again, if they are important enough to declare a boundary, they are important enough to remove someone from your life for crossing them.

Why should she tell friends/family and ditch the "you go girls"? Your actions are showing you won't do anything about it.

Until you reach that point with your boundaries, I can promise you that little to nothing will change in your life.

Coming from a someone who also suffered physical and emotional abuse from a father who struggled with drug and alcohol addiction, as well as a (mostly) reformed Nice Guy, trust me when I say I understand what you are going through. But brother, no matter how much you see those certain aspects of your personality as unlovable, you deserve better than your wife. Until you also start to believe that as well, little in your life will change.

Principles are the key to being a great man rather than a nice guy; identify them, and make all life decisions based upon them.

Here for you if you need someone to chat with, brother.

She told me she wants to make amends. And that she really wants to be in this marriage. That she will do anything.

I am out of town and have been since yesterday.

She has not texted me since 10 am today. She said she would text me and let me know where she is throughout the day. Every day. She did that more or less for the past several days.

Today, it seems to have grown too cumbersome for her.

Radio silence.

I keep checking my phone.

I will not call her. I will not text her.

This is so infuriating.

When will I understand and see her they way you guys do? As no better than yesterday’s trash. I think I have let go and realize that I am still holding on.

The worst part is not knowing.

Who is she with? Is she having fun? Is she scheming with lawyers and her gogirls? Is she remorseful?

I have no idea.

And I don’t get to say goodnight to my little boy.

Does he miss me today?

Have you guys heard of WW or WH (their friends or allies) reading these threads as events were unfolding?

I am being a victim. Today has been tough.

She has not texted me since 10 am today. She said she would text me and let me know where she is throughout the day. Every day. She did that more or less for the past several days.

Actions speak louder than words.

You really need to get out of the denial.

If she had any remourse she'd be bending over backwards right now but I suspect she knows you can be played.

I have this fantasy about telling her family what happened. The have no clue. I am sure of this. All I would get might be a little sympathy, but no real support. Blood is thicker than water. That is certain. Especially in this case.

I have been tempted to post her transgressions on her FB page so all of her friends know what she did. I would be instantly vilified. More so than I am already. It might be a little embarrassing for her. For once second. And then it would just serve as justification for all that she did.

These are like the fantasies I had about beating the shit out of the OM. I would get only a minor and fleeting satisfaction. If even that. And it would cause more trouble for me.

I am grasping for something to do to make myself feel better. None of these things would. I am pretty sure of that. Not revenge. Not violence against the OM. Not meaningless sex with another woman. But it is all just grasping. Prayer offers temporary relief.

All I can do is distract myself from moment to moment.

I feel unsettled in my heart.

I have to admit something to you all.

It is something that is relevant to my current situation but that I have not admitted on here.

It is something that is a source of deep embarrassment to me and what makes her infidelity all the more painful.

And that is. She is my second wife. My first wife cheated on me too.

A pattern you see. One that I certainly did not anticipate. There is clearly something wrong with me. I thought if I really worked at it, I could prevent my current wife from cheating. I really think that is why I put up with so much of her shit. And i think at some level she understood this.

But there are some differences between my first and second marriages. I never really liked my first wife and was relieved when we were divorced. I married her for all the wrong reasons and it was an overall unhappy and short marriage for both of us. I was hurt by her infidelity but nothing like what I feel now. There were no children and so it was more like a break up and less like a divorce.

But it was years after my divorce before I got remarried. I told my current wife all about the divorce and what happened and how important fidelity and honesty were to me and why. I thought she understood. Given what she knew I NEVER imagined that she would cheat on me the way she did.

This also makes the idea of getting another divorce so much harder. I can’t be divorced twice.

What kind of a man does that make me?

What woman is going to want to be someones third wife? That is crazy.

I read so often on here of a WH or WW cheating on someone for the second, third, or fourth time. What is worse, having one spouse cheat multiple times or having multiple spouses cheat once?

Read up "No More Mr Nice Guy" free PDF download

This may help you find what you're looking for.

You are putting the control of your life in your wife's hands.

Better wake up.

You are a nice guy. You seek those types of women based on your FOO issues.

Is does not mean you are broken. It does mean you have some work to do. That is another trap that us nice guys fall into; we assume that we are broken beyond repair.

It requires hard work, discipline, and drive. You have each of these as I have seen so far.

As to your WW... Do you have to see her copulating with the OM to realize she is not in this? Understand, she likely does think she is in this... But look at who is coaching her: the "You Go Girls". She has no idea what she is doing. However, the fact that she is unwilling to give you what you need to earn your trust tells you everything you need to know.

DO NOT REACH OUT TO HER.

Stay dark.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 9:04 PM, November 11th (Friday)]

Grizzly, you are spending way too much time in your own head. Believe me, I know. We all know. It all plays through the mind like a loop, one factoid after another, discerning some new meaning from each, feeling used and discarded, disbelief, what was real and what was a lie, was it all a lie? We get it. We've been there.

But when it all becomes too much, you have to give yourself a break from thinking about it, even if it's just for a little while. Watch a movie, read a book, sleep if you can. Give yourself permission to put these thoughts aside for just a little while. Rome wasn't built in a day and it didn't fall in a day, right? Give yourself the gift of a little TIME, a respite. The problems will still be there tomorrow or the next day.

I'll tell you a little secret... sometimes, when it all became just too much, I would work on pretending that I was single and that I had no responsibilities to anyone but me. You know, that feeling in early adulthood where you first realize that you don't have to report in to anyone? I'm not talking about 'acting out' like a single, but more like feeling it, reminiscing it. I used to try that feeling on for a few hours at a time and just immerse myself in the freedom of it.

Take a little break and give yourself over to processing subconsciously. Focus in on whatever small things make you feel better, simple things.. the aroma of your morning coffee, the faint warmth of the autumn sun, a favorite song while driving to work, small things that remind you of what's good in life. Your brain will continue to process the trauma in the background at the subconscious level, but a little respite from the grinding conscious loop will help to energize you a bit.

In a few days, you'll be ready to get back to working on making decisions consciously. But for right now, while you're overwhelmed by the enormity of everything that's happened, it's perfectly okay to put the whole thing on the backburner and let it simmer until you're ready to deal with it.

Grizzly, that's awful, that you would have to endure this again. It's still nothing for YOU to be ashamed of. That's on them. I don't know you, but I feel like I do. You are doing far better than you know. I'm glad to see you on other threads helping them. I love talking to people on this site. Sometimes being the expert that we all eventually become pays off, if not just to help one person. Reading your post takes me back to my DDay. My wife actually denied it for a month when I had all of the emails in my hand to prove it. We were going to court to do some preliminary stuff for our divorce. Then from out of nowhere, the very day of court, the obs shows up and tells my wife that she needs to confess. That made all of the difference. My wife went from being a cold hearted bitch, to telling the obs that I would never forgive her!

Up until that point, I didn't know if I could. But when she stated that, my heart melted. I told her that I was never given the chance. We had a couple of setbacks in that first month or so afterwards. I saw where she had started seeing another guy on the side while we were preparing for divorce. She never told me about it. I found text messages that she thought she had deleted. Thus DDAY 2. Everybody on this site warned me,

I prayed to God and asked what to do. As clear as day I heard the message that I didn't want to hear. All I got was `70x7'. Are you sure God? `70x7` Wool!

I called AP#2s ex and she told me all about his cheating in their marriage. I relayed the info to my wife, she was shocked... he was such a great guy and friend.

Wow, I said God, I can't do this 488 more times... but I followed his wisdom.

Dday 3 in June, I'm at work and of course I have her Email on my phone. I start seeing emails between John doe (AP1) and her. Yeah, he used John Doe!

I called OBS again. She says she will handle her end, then an hour later she tells me never to contact them again. WTH?!?!

My wife tells John Doe she misses him. She says that I'm monitoring her emails and that she has to delete there messages. He says for her to make another email address in which she happily obliges.

I called her immediately and asked WTF? I leave work and head home. I'm hysterical...totally losing it!!!! Remember '70x7'...same prayer, same answer.

I told her to call our preacher and his wife, two people that had been in our corner throughout this entire ordeal. We go and speak with them. My wife just says how hard it is and that he's (AP1) such a nice guy....I couldn't get her to admit what a piece of crap he was (that's actually insulting to crap).

When we get back home, our daughter wanted to spend the night at the neighbors house. Well, it just so happens that this neighbor had also been hit on by John Doe. Come to find out John has hit on nearly everyone in the apartment complex!!!!! Finally my wife's eyes were opened!!! We talked with these neighbours for hours, in fact since then, we've been on vacation with them and before that we barely knew them.

From that point, she owned her stuff. The guy tried to contact her again. We went to the internal affairs office (he's a policeman). She filed a report of her own doing.

She is truly remorseful. She does anything I ask, and much more that I don't. Unless I'm at work, we are together 24/7. That's by her choosing, not that I mind it either. It's a total 180 from even before the A.

I posted more to this story in General under AP contacts Wife...We get last laugh.

I'm sorry for the t/j and the long post, but I'm trying to let you see, whether it works out or not, God is working a plan. I didn't know that he would thwart every effort of divorce or reveal everytime something was tried, but he did!

[This message edited by Wool94 at 12:11 AM, November 12th (Saturday)]