SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If you are primarily looking for advice about Reconciliation then I would second the suggestion that you look more to the Reconciliation forum as your primary focus.

When I found SI I was already around three months out from Dday. I had already decided that R was what I wanted (although I didn’t have a name for it yet). And so, I spent most of my time in here in the Reconciliation forum. I rarely ventured into JFO or general for my first year, maybe two, here on SI. Mostly because I found some of the energy there to be problematic for me as I journeyed through the R process. I can’t say for sure if that choice was right or wrong. It turned out well for me but it’s possible that I just got lucky because I didn’t have a WS that was determined to fuck me over. Hard to say.

I do know that as I progressed I ventured out more and more into the other forums and I feel that I have benefited a great deal from the perspectives I found in all of them. But it took me a while to get to a place where I could look at those perspectives in a healthy way.

So, stick to the R forum for a while if you find it helpful. Nothing wrong with that necessarily. All the rest of SI will still be there if and when you need it.

HT

Iris whatever decision you make of course it's "ok" and "valid".

You came here for advice being that this is a site for infidelity. The people here at SI are just sharing their wisdom which unfortunately comes from first hand experience with this topic.

All anyone can do in life, with any decision (especially a major one) is to hear testimonies that cover numerous roads you could choose to go down. You take it all in weighing the pros and cons of each choice, pray on it, and than make the best choice that you can at that point in time.

You may decide to R and than get into it and find six months from now that this isn't going to work for you and than decide to D.

We're all just trying to navigate this maze of life one day at a time. In the big picture just be grateful that there's a place like this where you can get some valuable insight to help you in the process of making your decision.

Also remember that this insight is coming from people who went through a great deal of pain and are willing to take their time to share their testimony with someone like you to help you avoid experiencing this pain if at all possible.

Nobody is judging you on your decision whichever way you go. Nobody is going to tell you, "I told you so" if down the line you're back here saying things didn't work out.

Whichever way you go it will take a great deal of courage, and you'll certainly be in need of more wisdom as you continue in your journey.

I honestly feel like people are projecting their own defensiveness onto a new poster who is not that far our from a DDay. The old-timers here shouldn't expect her to have more perspective on stuff than they do.

She felt unsupported before, and we couldn't just hear that and sit with it.

[This message edited by swmnbc at 1:23 PM, June 11th, 2019 (Tuesday)]

Thank you Swmnbc and Kingrat for your thoughtful and empathetic responses.

I think there is a subset of people here, a SMALL subset, saying “we know we don’t fit and we know even the majority of people who understand infidelity don’t support us”. And I think that matters. It’s lonely enough being a BS. Being told to run, when you aren’t running, isn’t helpful. I don’t think anyone choosing to reconcile is making the decision lightly, so it feels a bit patronizing to explain to us how terrible our choice is. I DO get it comes from a good place. But then when you have people wearing the actual shoes saying “your advice is hurting, not helping” and then there is no empathy or even a pause.. well, then it just sort of sucks. Then you realize you’re even more alone than you thought.

Gtflng - I don't have anything to add to this but to say thank you, I hear you, I see you.

For those concerned that this thread has become too long - I assure you that there truly are are some of us who are benefiting from it, and that there are very few threads that speak this small subset of us.

Iris - I cannot tell you how strongly I identify with what you are expressing in your recent posts about how you are feeling about your reticence to post. I felt the same exact way when I was a freshly betrayed spouse. In posting at all, you are stronger than I was. I was struggling to justify my choices to myself, and not brave enough to put them out there for for public consumption.

I get that you haven't made your mind up yet and are truly weighing your options right now. I imagine that intellectually you can see arguments on either side but are having difficulty seeing yourself following either path. You are probably feeling raw and intermittently miserable, so it is easy to see the hurdles you face and more difficult to see any light at the end of the tunnel. You want reassurance that R is possible in your scenario, NOT because you are necessarily set on R, but because you want balance and you are having trouble seeing that balance reflected in the responses here.

In the interests of that balance, here thoughts/observations that were relevant to my situation, that I have made that may be relevant to you:

- One of the benefits of being childless at D-Day is the ability (for both parties) to look at your relationship in a vacuum (without the outside influences of children and the related complications) to determine whether it is worth saving. In relationships with children (particularly young children), I believe that in many cases, one or both parties are driven to R for reasons that have nothing to do with the relationship (to keep the family together or to avoid child support obligations, etc) and I wonder whether in some cases, this can lead to greater rugsweeping, resentments/relationship dissatisfaction, and settling something less than true-R. (This is not to say, of course, that childless R's are somehow immune from falling into this too).

- Similarly, if you do not have children (or if your children have grown up and left the house), you have greater ability/time to fully immerse yourself in R, which may be beneficial to you/your relationship. I remember reading the stories of others shortly after D-Day and hearing people say things like, "I haven't had a chance to talk to my WH about this over the past few days/week" and being absolutely dumbfounded. My husband and I talked about the A literally constantly for the first year (even when we were at work we would text). My WH and I both have demanding careers, but I could not comprehend the idea of having to schedule time to talk about it.... UNTIL I had a baby, that is. You just have less time to yourselves - less time to go out for a date, less time to attend counselling appointments. I can only imagine that this gets more difficult as the kids get older.

- Others have alluded to the argument that life gets harder and more complicated as life goes on, so if your relationship is not strong enough to handle it now (without kids) then you're probably in trouble in the future. This is one that I struggled with personally, because yeah, that scared me. The flipside to this, is that assuming you are both deeply committed to R and you go to counselling and learn your whys and vulnerabilities and FOO issues, there is also a chance you come out the other side of this better equipped to handle relationship stressors in the future. I know for me personally, I never imagined I had any issues with boundaries, but after learning what I have learned and reading what I have read, even I have tightened up my behavior around the opposite sex. I don't think there was anything necessarily problematic in the way I acted previously, but after everything we have been through, I prefer to stay far away from that slippery slope.

- I don't need to tell you this, as it has been shouted at you from the rooftops and because you are already well aware, but ultimately, either choice you make is going to be a risk (in theory, all the choices you made before this were risk too, but they didn't seem so stark). You, being as young as you are, have options that many/most of us did not when we were in your situation. I think that is what most of us see when we imagine being in your scenario - the great many options you have. Unfortunately, some of the advice has come off a little patronizing/dismissive but I assure you that as a whole, this group means well. Being so young though, you also have time to be wrong, in a way that I didn't. Does that make sense? At 26, you can attempt R and fail, and still have time to divorce and find a new forever relationship and have kids. Obviously, I'm not suggesting you try R if you do not ultimately think that it will be successful (please do not do this!), because you're only young once, and your potential pool of mates will get smaller as time goes on.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 2:18 PM, June 11th, 2019 (Tuesday)]

Really I do not agree that as a childless BS you don't get support or aren't welcomed.

If someone seeks R advice the R forum is full of it. From my experience the D forum is also a great help and you always get answeres for every topic.

The view times I read in the WS forum seems to me also a very good place for them.

In the JFO and gerneral you just get ALL kind of advice and thats exactly how it should be.

The childless young BS aren't excluded.

LTA, serial cheating, abusive, unremorsefull and BS with OC also get adviced to run lots of the time and in every topic there are always people telling you to do what is right for you. Always

So I do not see the point in saying that childless is so excluded or uncomfortable. Not at all.

Its just all kind of people who give all kind of advice. Try to post in R for R advice only. There are so many who experienced it and are absolutly for R even no child, OC, serial or same sex or whatever.

I still believe its still a point just because it wasn't actually what you wanted to hear.

Jaci - The concern is not that childless BS are not welcome, but that childless BS who are looking to R may not feel supported. You were a childless BS who chose divorce. I don't imagine you would have trouble finding support in this scenario.

Edited: to clarify.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 2:50 PM, June 11th, 2019 (Tuesday)]

Reading advice from people who are sharing their testimony/experience, and even though it might be tough to hear sure in the heck does NOT mean that if you don't agree with the testimony/advice that you're not "welcome".

^^^^ this.

telling someone to run,and believe me i've been here a while and have thought it through, is my way of showing support. the OP can choose to listen or not.. But please don't tell me I should frame it a different way.

If she came here saying hey I don't have kids and "I'd like to recover, whatcha got for me" then a different response.

but posing the questing why? I answered that. And it was met with resistance.

dup

[This message edited by sewardak at 3:07 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]

I believe almost everyone here on SI has good intentions. But, here you have the people you are meaning to support feeling unsupported. So perhaps the next step could be examining your* delivery vs doubling down on your response when met with “resistance”. Because the asserted intention here on this thread is to be supportive and welcoming, even if the advice is flawed or unhelpful.

I’m actually totally disheartened reading the total lack of empathy and reflection here.

We all know to take what you need and leave the rest. It would just be nice to put the projections to bed.

(*You being the general you, of course).

I believe almost everyone here on SI has good intentions. But, here you have the people you are meaning to support feeling unsupported. So perhaps the next step could be examining your* delivery vs doubling down on your response when met with “resistance”. Because the asserted intention here on this thread is to be supportive and welcoming, even if the advice is flawed or unhelpful.

What?

So we should give bad advice just so the OP feels good?

No, you should be empathetic in your responses. There’s a difference in saying “I would be worried about these things...” and “this is what you should do and if not you’re making a horrible mistake”.

The reality is the majority feel staying without kids is reckless, a gamble, stupid, naive.. you name it. And that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But when a poster is looking for support, it would be nice if people articulated themselves from a place of empathy rather than expert. To even pose a question rather than an admonishment. For example “Have you considered x y z” vs “THIS terrible thing will probably happen”, or using false arguments.

Everyone, and I’ll say it again, weighs the risks in their particular situation. It often comes across as though people think the childless (younger) BS’ don’t know how to weigh the odds.

Look - I’m talking to you AS a childless BS. If you want to give advice to people like me, perhaps you would be intersted in how it’s landing so far.

I honestly don’t even know what you are getting at with what you bolded. I’m saying if the RUN advice comes from a place of support and concern, perhaps consider HOW you give it. I would expect some willingness to self-reflect if someone says to you “but here’s the part of your advice that isn’t working, or doesn’t make sense, or hurts”.

My advice to my co-childless-voices is to find the empathetic and understanding voices and pay attention to them. I’m so grateful to have a large, non-SI based support group to turn to for certain things.

At the end of the day, the biggest factor for a successful R seems to be how willing people are to put the work in- NOT who has procreated. My husband had every ability to leave and leave quick.. but he didn’t. I guess that doesn’t mean a damn thing.

[This message edited by gtflng at 4:09 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]

gtflng good god. You do realize that this is the Internet, correct?

Not everyone is going to convey their experience/advice the way YOU want it.

How about just being grateful that people are willing to take their time to recall one of THE WORST life experiences they've been through and to pass it along to someone who specifically came here asking for their opinion?

Another way to look at it is by passing along such a painful experience in the hopes that the person seeking advice might not make the same mistakes they made and thus open up Pandora's box to a whole host of further pain is in fact having COMPASSION & EMPATHY.

Yes, much compassion.

It has occurred to me that if there's judgment on a childless BS who tries to R, that judgment is pointed at the wrong person. The WS is the one who needs to wake up and get his/her shit together and learn how to be an adult and not hurt those closest to them before children arrive. A BS who stays or leaves has nothing but my empathy and support whether they have children or not. We all know what this trauma feels like. We all know what it is to look at our spouse and think "WTF, who is this person??". That's all true whether you have no kids or 10 kids.

But when a poster is looking for support

And, as I've said numerous times - that wasn't the original post, now was it? Just look at the title of this thread: It was Why are childless BS's predominantly advised to D? It was most definitely not, "I have this situation, what should I do?"

Which, BTW, when I got the details of her situation, I did say it sounded like she had a shot at R, and to go down that path - if she chooses.

But, again...If you ask me should, IN GENERAL, people without kids just cut and run - I will say yes. I don't know how else to say that. But don't tell us that we are "unempathetic" because you don't like the answer.

[And - again - If the OP wants support in how to look at R and what's involved, we are more than willing to help guide her on that journey. Just start a new thread and ask for the help.]

Right - the question wasn’t “do you think childless BSs should divorce” but WHY - what is the reasoning? I think Iris wanted to confront some of the reasons people give her - because they don’t really add up.

I don’t feel personally attacked if people think I should divorce. It makes a ton of sense on many levels. My problem is the “expert” opinions that come across without empathy. That are full of fallacies. That don’t actually answer the question of why, or do in a way that ignores how the exact same applies to someone with kids.

It’s one thing to say “these are the reasons why I wouldn’t” vs “you should because”. You also can’t say “because they will hurt your future kids” without acknowledging “just like a parent WS might hurt their kids twice”. I get there are one million reasons to stay AND to go in ANY situation.

It’s when I see things that suggest a serial cheating parent is less risky than a non-parent who cheated once. Do you know what I’m saying? Again and again and again I will say - shouldn’t we all agree it’s THE WORK that matters?

I still haven’t seen a compelling argument why it’s a blanket statement “RUN” and I probably never will concede there is one. Because to me it’s about individual effort. Some of these arguments do scream “once a cheater always a cheater” and then go on to negate why that would be equally problematic for someone who does have kids. It doesn’t make sense to me and it doesn’t make sense to the OP either.

That’s fine. I’m definitely done with this thread. I think for us childless BS the real goal is to let go of this question because there simply isn’t an answer to that that will hold any weight for us. I think that’s why this thread is so long. There’s a set of people who think there’s one million valid reasons why having no kids = divorce, and a small group of us who know it doesn’t really make sense. There isn’t a good why for this because you can’t blanket statement individual people. At least not non-parents. Maybe serial cheaters or sex addicts have inherantly more risk. But not a non parent - I don’t think.

I’ve always had a problem with general. Debating trauma during trauma. Time to step away. Best wishes to everyone here.

[This message edited by gtflng at 4:57 PM, June 11th (Tuesday)]

I know you don't believe me, but I'm really not so naive that, after reading here every day for 6 months, I would think I (or anyone) could possibly get exclusive pro-R feedback, or that that would be helpful even. I value different perspectives even if I don't agree with them. But there's a substantial difference between hearing "RUN, you don't have children" and "I tend to advise people to D because of x y and z". One implies that there is only one possible respectable way out, the other gives room for the person to disagree with the reasoning or consider particular circumstances which make the advice not applicable. I don't disagree with all of the reasoning, but I do think some of the arguments made are extremely flawed, and when I point that out the responses imply that I just don't like what I'm hearing. This basically shuts down the debate. Even if you really feel that I'm in denial, surely there is a different way of going about that?

Childless BS's are a rare sight outside of the JFO forum, but they pop up sometimes to commiserate with others in their position and then vanish in the wind. Some have come to this thread and stated that they have/had similar feelings to mine. So maybe there is something to be learned from this on both sides.

I will probably end up posting in R regardless of my fear, as per your recommendations. I just wish more people in my position would feel safe posting. Thank you all for your time.

gtflng I don't think you should step away as you're doing what everyone else is doing and that's sharing your opinion.

I can only speak for myself, but you've definitely made me think twice about how I want to convey my thoughts.

Iris thank you for asking your question as I for one have found this thread very insightful.

Iris. You ask for our advice and we give it. It’s not a debate., I’m not here to give advice and then defend it. It’s my advice based on years of experience TAKE it or LEAVE it. But I’m not debating it or putting it in fluffy words.

Others will. Listen to them I guess.