SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Reconciliation is a long,hard, painful process that takes years. IMO,few are successful. Lots of betrayed spouses return,years later, saying their WS cheated,again.

I'm sure divorcing is extremely painful, children,or no children. But there are huge differences when you have kids. While a child free BS feels the same devastation a BS/parent,there are painful aspects a parent will possibly face that a child free BS wont.

The child free BS can walk away from their WS if they divorce. You can go completely NC with them. You dont have to see them several times a month. The OW wont be pulling into your drive every Friday to get your kids. You won't have to hear how OW is nice..or not nice..to your kids. You won't have food,or gifts in your home that OW sent home with your kids. You don't have to sit at home, trying go pay the bills because money is tight,and he is behind on his CS,while watching them go out to dinner, vacations,on social media. You dont have to share holidays with the OW.

You dont have the added pain of seeing your children hurting because their parent shit on the family.

You dont have the added pressure of trying to make it work because it's best for the kids.

You dont have your children begging you to stay..or go.

One of my children found out their father had cheated on me,years later. By accident. Their response was to ask me why would dad risk our family? They were heartbroken. Her relationship with her father has never been the same.

Those who dont have children can flippantly say the fallout,and years of reconciliation are the same, kids or no kids. Those of us who have held our sobbing children, know differently.

Even if you try and hide it from the kids. They find out. They're smart,clever, and aren't blind. When my child found out,the pain I felt was immeasurable. That why I tell child free BS to run.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:27 PM, June 9th (Sunday)]

FWIW, it seemed to me that it was a general question with some potential specificity for you, so I tried to answer along those lines. I get why people advise you to run. On the other hand, BH and I didn't run, and we were madhatters, so that's basically an act of insanity. And yet, here we are. Today is our 28th wedding anniversary. We're still in love, really in love. There's been no cheating by either of us during our entire marriage (our As happened before we got engaged). Who can say if any other relationship we embarked on would have survived this long?

People who give you that advice are calling the odds as they see them. They might be accurate odds. Based on SI, it's relatively rare to have a truly remorseful WS. Many people end up in limbo. The toughest cases are the people who believed their WS had reformed and were betrayed a second time. You can't win if you don't play, but you can't lose, either, and the house usually wins.

And yes, there could be a bit of talk from the cheap seats. It's easy to say what you'd do in someone else's situation. Many people who said infidelity was a dealbreaker before it happened stayed married anyway after it happened. And I've seen things here every day that make me think "I'd walk if that were me," but would I, really? No one, including me, knows for sure. "Do as I say, not as I do (or did)" is a common human phenomenon.

I never know whether to offer hope in these situations. I know I'm lucky, like REALLY lucky. And I'm also speaking from the WS seat, so I'm not taking nearly the chance that you are. I know I'm not secretly in contact with OM or scoping out another candidate to succeed him. I know I'm done lying. There's no uncertainty for me.

But I would never judge you for trying. Why would I? It worked in my case.

As far as people not recommending D because they didn't walk, or don't think that would walk, I think that is immaterial.

I never had a choice at R. WW left me for OM. Would I have tried R? Probably. Would it have worked? Knowing my WW, likely not.

People are going to do what they will. People do R because they want to do R. Whether it is really best for them, who knows? I have read posts here about people who went through R, WS stayed, and years later BS regrets R. Then what?

The only bad advice is painting a false picture. I cannot personally guarantee results, ever. R or D has pitfalls. Results depend on your particular situation. But sometimes the BS should go with the head rather than the heart or the gut, and proper advice from others can help them get there. The personal circumstances of the others do not matter.

“I can take care of myself and any kiddos”

Not when they are on visitation with an xws.

On this Site:

My xh married OW, her first H murdered her then boyfriend and killed himself. My xh just inherited close to 1 mill. Pretty sure she wouldn’t care if he got killed, and if my kids were with him, all the better for her. My xh also quit going to any of our kids events, but not OW child’s karate classes. He took new family to our lake house many times but didn’t invite our kids, ow made sure they were told afterward how fun it was. Their hearts were shattered.

One mother on SI found out her xh was leaving open porn on his computer for the kids to “find”, while the 4 kids were on visitation. She paid for a home study, but her xh denied it and visitation was not modified.

One mother had to send her son on visitation with xh, a stripper and stripper friends. Her xh murdered the stripper/OW while their baby was in the other room. Just so happened her son wasn’t there that night.

One mother (and child) sees her xh in the soccer field across from their home 2x a week at his new wife’s sons games, but he doesn’t attend his own 2nd graders games. Ever.

One mother’s 2 daughters got picked up for visitation by her xh sister. The sister then took the kids to the airport, put them in a plane to her brother who was in HAWAII. (The mother had no idea). The brother (xwh) also sent the kids back from Hawaii a day early without telling the SI member. The kids called from the airport asking where the mom was! It cost this woman thousands of dollars to limit visitation, but for a year had to continue to send them to xh.

Most of us had red flags that our spouses were selfish and/or crossed the line of respect with us prior to the affairs. The way they treat their kids goes right along with the selfishness.

TMI warning:

I mean, really, a spouse dated other people while married???? WTF??? A spouse (mine,) let me kiss him after his face was between her legs??? Really??? Is there really a “normal” person living in that brain? Not that I can see.

I guess people on SI have been in so much pain bc of the pain for their kids, that they tell you to run so you’ll find someone who would never cross the line of respect with their wife on any issues. And would never hurt their kids. I guess everyone who says to run, wants you to be treated respectfully from day 1 and have a nice, quiet, awesome life with children.

[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 5:37 PM, June 9th (Sunday)]

Where I struggle the most is when people talk about the irresponsibility or the gamble of having kids with a known cheater.

I have incredibly dear friends who have kids and who have stayed. I pass zero judgement on staying to keep a family intact. Where it falls apart for me is: why is it morally or statistically worse to have kids with a cheater, than it is to stay and expose your kids to a second round? It just doesn’t compute for me.

For the record, I DON’T think it’s a bad choice to stay when kids are involved and I don’t think it’s irresponsible or a giant gamble. I just think the argument is terrible. I think it’s actually a pretty false argument - easy to make but hard to defend.

“How irresponsible to stay married and choose to have kids” is an accepted comment. But.. “how irresponsible to stay and risk your kids going through this twice” is a horrible thing to say. I think they are BOTH horrible things to say. I think we should ALL be able to agree it just simply isn’t that simple. We ALL take a risk when we attempt to reconcile. I think it’s pretty shitty to pull out the yardstick and say someone’s making a bad choice just because the family situation is different than yours. Your husband is still talking to the AP?! RUN. Fair. You don’t have kids? RUN?! Why? Why is that a totally acceptable fair response? Based on kids or no kids alone? I’d rather talk about which waywards are doing the work.

My other beef is people who swear they’d react in a certain way had their circumstances been different and I just 9/10x call BS on that. I think we all have surprised ourselves with the decisions we have made and you just simply DO NOT KNOW what the other one million circumstantial paths would have looked like for you.

[This message edited by gtflng at 4:34 PM, June 9th (Sunday)]

Sewardak

Iris - I’m not going to say somethjng like “honey, you know, it might be in your best interest to not touch that hot burner. I mean, you do you, but ultimately, if you could use some caution when you get close to that burner, if might work out better for you.”

Ive been here a while iris. I’m 52. I’ve been married over 30 years. This is a site ppl come to for advice. You don’t get to decide what or how they say it.

I certainly don't get to decide. I do think sometimes people give certain advice not realising that it hurts more than it helps. But if that was your intended effect, by all means continue. What do I know, maybe it works for some.

FWIW on paper my was not Reconciliation worthy. Second Affair. He wanted a D. I heard the ILYBNILWY speech for months.

We are one of the lucky ones. We R. He made changes. He has shown me remorse and changes and has put me and our M first for six years since DDay2.

If your H is committed to change and shoes remorse it is possible to reconcile and be happy.

Iris2536,

I do feel afraid to post about my situation.

Please don’t be afraid to post. The vibes I get from you is that you have a good head on your shoulder. I am sad infidelity happened to you but I’m not Worried about you. You will be able to take the best decision for you (R or D) and you will be just fine. :

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 6:04 PM, June 9th (Sunday)]

Iris at the end of the day this is your journey. You get one shot at this thing called life. Whichever direction you decide to go the people here at SI are here to support you.

I hope you feel safe enough to share more of your story. It took a lot of courage to come here, and all anyone here wants for you is to be happy and have the peace that you're seeking.

Hang in there!!

When I first posted here, I wasn't married. It was a long-term relationship.

I remember wondering the same thing. Why tell people to run? Well, for me, that was sage advice.

Life is immeasurably more difficult with children and the accompaniments (mortgage, daycare, etc.). My WH could not cope with life then and he cannot now.

We are divorcing. Extracting two lives with children is heart-wrenching. Our finances are intermingled, we have to share the kids, you have no control over the next partner after you, new partner's influence is felt and heard whether warranted or not.

And the person you married is not the person you divorce.

It's a complete and total destruction of the life I had. I am no stranger to pain, yet this is the most intense pain I have felt.

I wish you the best in finding your path.

Homewrecked nailed it with why I even contemplated R. I didn’t want to share my kids with another woman. In my case, my ex married the OW and when her son grew up, he got mixed up with drugs, owed a lot of money, feared for his life so much he attempted to rob a bank. All this went down while my kids were there 40% of the time. And no one told me, didn’t find out until a year later when wifetress moved out.

So R isn’t just about keeping a family intact with a known cheater, sometimes staying together is actually preferable to the alternative, exposing your kids to an unknown adult.

My other beef is people who swear they’d react in a certain way had their circumstances been different and I just 9/10x call BS on that.

I take issue with this. You do not know all the circumstances of everyone's life on here. They may actually know exactly how they'd react under different circumstances because they've done it before.

Homewrecker nailed it!

As a BS w/out children, I wondered the same thing and honestly I stopped posting my childless status in the beginning because I would get a ton of "oh, you don't have kids - you should run" and felt stupid for even discussing my issues as it seemed so "obvious" to everyone else. It made me feel like my marriage somehow wasn't as important as people with children (welcome to being a childless woman if you haven't had this happen to you before now) and that it should be "easier" for me to leave. It is and it isn't IMO.

An earlier poster said something along the lines of "patterns of behavior are likely to repeat" meaning the cheater will likely keep cheating. If that is the case, why on Earth is staying with a dishonest person who mistreats and abuses the BS emotionally at the least and having that influence your children every single day be a good thing??? Either you believe that R is possible or your don't, and honestly, whether you have kids or not doesn't change that (as clearly the kids didn't keep them from cheating either). It also will not change how you feel about your WS - how it affects you personally. Whether your D or R or do some strange limbo in the middle, the feelings you have for your WS are going to be what they are, for you.

Those who dont have children can flippantly say the fallout,and years of reconciliation are the same, kids or no kids. Those of us who have held our sobbing children, know differently.

I will say this: kids of divorced parents deal with these issues everyday. I know that I did as a child of a divorce. No there was not infidelity in my parents divorce, but there was a lot of hate and anger, and it was ugly - my comments are not what I would say flippant. I remember distinctly when my Dad moved out for good and it wasn't fun but I remember the YEARS of fighting and misery between them and it was worse. I have asked my father many many times why on Earth did they stay together for so long? His response: It was for you and your sister, and it was a mistake. Not every situation is the same - and I get that. I would just hope that we all realize that not every childless situation is the same either.

What if you are a BS and there are step-children involved? Does that warrant staying? What about caring for family? What about running a joint business that would be dissolved and destroyed if the parties divorced and decided not to continue it? What if financially you work for your former spouse in an area where that is likely the only job you will ever get with your limited experience, so you are forced to see your XWH anyway? There are lots of personal situations that we don't immediately grasp on here, but does the reason for deciding to stay or not really matter??? Ultimately, either you want to try or you don't.

Yes I grasp that there are custody issues and financial considerations that childless people do not have (arguably re: finances) which could make separation tougher in the beginning, and yes, sometimes that drags on and on and on. But is that a reason to stay with someone who otherwise you would call it a day? Isn't there some value in showing your kids that you should be more invested in yourself (as is preached on here everyday)? Just food for thought here as I don't have the answers to any of this.

Another poster said this:

You have this innate need to protect and model the best behavior for [your kids].

Here's a different view based on the idea that a cheater will continue to cheat (in my case that was 100% true) or that even if they don't keep cheating that the marriage is damaged that w/out kids you should run: If you are solo (meaning it's just you and your WS) you have the luxury of doing "whatever you want to" without having to worry about how your WS's abuse and your subsequent personal meltdown may affect your kid(s). If you have kids, arguably you have a lot more to worry about when staying with a cheater. Isn't is easier to deal with that damage when it's just you and your WS than with kids involved?

Relationship issues are freaking difficult. Infidelity for most seems to be a mind-fuck of ultimate proportions. It renders many into a hapless mush-pot for a long time. It's soul crushing. It's hard as hell to reconcile and do the work to get there. We all know the post-dday fall out. We all understand that in most cases post-dday and the months (years) afterwards is not fun. We all know that there is a lot of "focus on you" and let your WS "do the work" advice, and I agree with it. There is a lot of "do the 180" which is never going to seem anything but strange to your kids - they WILL suffer from the aftermath on some level whether your stay or go...and while that is NOT the BS's fault, unfortunately it's a fact. Having been through D-day had I had children I don't think I would put them through the aftermath as I wouldn't want have had to "fake it" and I woudln't trust my WS not to screw me and the kids over again. Heck, for a few months I don't think I could fake it even if I wanted to more than I did. If I hadn't been able to go home and fall to pieces on my own I'm not sure what I would have done. I would also want to protect my kids from the piles of negativity and sadness that infidelity brings with it.

All that being said - I DON'T KNOW what I would do if I had kids, much like those with kids don't know how they would approach their marriage if they didn't have any. I THINK I know what I would do...but I don't have any way of knowing for sure. I was one of those people who said infidelity was a deal breaker for me - 100% sure of it (like a lot of us on here I'm sure) yet when it happened I didn't leave and tried to stick it out.

All I'm saying is that do not feel bad for trying to R if you want to regardless of your childless status. In my situation I am childless and am setting myself up to leave - we are not in R and I don't see that happening because I think he broke me...I don't see him the way I used to and I don't think I want to do my own work (even if he did his/continues to do his) to try to find my way back there. For me too much water has gone under the bridge, but I've had the luxury of only having to worry about me in making my decisions so I could be a bit more reckless in trying to work it out than I likely would have if I had children with my WH.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 11:35 AM, June 10th (Monday)]

It really boggles my mind that people believe it is somehow so much more understandable to R when you have kids than when you don't. I've carefully read everything you've said, and there are some good points but I still believe it's basically the same children or or no children.

This is what I was referring to. This is a flippant statement. It seems OP asked a question, was given several responses as to why a childless BS is told to run, and rather than attempt to understand the POV of those with children, she feels all of us are wrong. Her statement completely dismisses the responses to the question she asked.

Hellfire, with all due respect, I do not think Iris has been flippant here. She acknowledges that children complicate the scenario and make divorce a more difficult option. She appears to have her eyes wide open to the reality of her situation. What she's really struggling with is to find common ground in her particular situation.

If anything, her question arises from the flippancy of the response that is typically made to young or childless BS around here, which is basically "DIVORCE... next..." This response isn't at all helpful for a childless BS who has a long history with their WS - especially if their WS appears to be demonstrating that they are a good candidate for R. This response is also at odds with a lot of the other discussions here which discuss suitability for R, whether R is truly possible and the whole once a cheater always a cheater thing, etc, because it suggests that all of that R discussion is ONLY relevant if you have kids.

I do not suggest that this advice to childless BS comes from anywhere but a good place but speaking with experience, childless BS can feel like they are on an island on their own.

Edited: to fix a typo

[This message edited by emergent8 at 3:45 PM, June 10th, 2019 (Monday)]

This is what I was referring to. This is a flippant statement. It seems OP asked a question, was given several responses as to why a childless BS is told to run, and rather than attempt to understand the POV of those with children, she feels all of us are wrong. Her statement completely dismisses the responses to the question she asked.

No, though I admit I got sensitive because some responses were dismissive of childless BS's feelings and I took them as being dismissive of me.

I have read through everything very carefully and some good points and recommendations were made. Some things I disagree with, others I partially agree. I just tend to have a problem when people's POVs are presented as absolute truths and subsequently used as justification to disregard feelings, especially in a place like this.

As I said in the original post, part of why I asked this question is because I feel there isn't a lot of support for childless BSs decisions and I'm afraid to post. Several other members in my situation have come here and stated that they feel the same. So I wonder if this is a place I can safely use for my own healing (and possible R).

The below is a common communication issue that John Gray identified in his book "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus." Let's ignore the gender stereotypes, but extrapolate this lesson and apply it to all people, regardless of gender.

"The most common complaint women have about men is that men don’t listen. Here the complaint is that he ignores her when she speaks to him or he quickly assesses what’s troubling her and then offers a solution to make her feel better. He gets confused by this when she doesn’t appreciate. She just wants empathy but he thinks she wants solutions. Stop giving unsolicited advice and show compassion and listen to your partner."

Please ignore the gender stereotypes, because I feel the foregoing, bolded quote is one of the best ways to improve communication between others.

I fall into the unsolicited advice camp. I have to always remind myself to presume the post is a vent. I give advice because that is what comes naturally to me; I'm a "fixer". The reason is a projection of my interactions with others. I do not vocalize a situation unless I am looking for feedback. That's just me--for better or for worse.

However, I have learned that a lot of others are not like me. They are communicating in the hopes of validation and support, not unsolicited advice or feedback. I need to work on reminding myself when I provide responses to others.

So those that are like me, would give feedback either to R or D. In the situation of making a decision on how to proceed without children, you could make an argument that the practical application (again this is not factoring the intangible emotional elements that are subjective and unique to any situation), in a vacuum, would be to cut bait.

The problem is, despite any advice made in good faith and concern for the OP, it has the effect of being pithy and shaming the OP. Even though that is not the intent, I have accepted that it is common for the other person to feel diminished and invalidated.

So my overall point is we can all be better communicators. We can start by finding a middle ground. To the posters, like Sisoon suggested, be more direct with you are looking for; is this vent or solicitation for advice? Responders, try to avoid giving advice unless the person specifically requests it. There is nothing wrong with giving advice, but validation generally needs to come first. This makes sense. We have to feel understand before we are open to further and more direct communication.

Again, please do not make this a gender debate. I was only referring to John Gray's quote because I feel it can be extrapolated to all communication between people.

[This message edited by KingRat at 2:41 PM, June 10th (Monday)]

For me personally, I tend to advise childless BS’s to divorce for a lot of reasons. The main one being that reconciliation is hard. It is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. The work that needs to be done by both spouses is unimaginable. I personally can not see it being worth it - if it weren’t for my kids and trying to keep my family together. I love my WH, but I don’t love him that much to put myself through this hell for just him after what he did. I would rather move on with my life with someone with a clean slate. Or at least I imagine I would.

Another reason I would advise against it - it’s easy to let marriages slip a little when you have kids and activities tantrums and sleepless nights and no babysitters and life and all of the little things that kids can unfortunately bring to your marriage. I can understand how all of that can add up to a big enough crack to let someone else in. I don’t know how that happens when it’s just the two of you. What do you fight about? Why aren’t you going on dates? How did the affair start? What happens when life gets in the way? If you aren’t ever planning on having kids then it doesn’t matter, but if you are... Kids are great, but they can be really tough on a marriage. If a spouse cheats before kids, I just have a hard time understanding that.

Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my end. Who knows? All I know is that reconciling is super hard and I’d advise my kids against it if they didn’t have kids of their own as well.

I think there is a subset of people here, a SMALL subset, saying “we know we don’t fit and we know even the majority of people who understand infidelity don’t support us”. And I think that matters. It’s lonely enough being a BS. Being told to run, when you aren’t running, isn’t helpful. I don’t think anyone choosing to reconcile is making the decision lightly, so it feels a bit patronizing to explain to us how terrible our choice is. I DO get it comes from a good place. But then when you have people wearing the actual shoes saying “your advice is hurting, not helping” and then there is no empathy or even a pause.. well, then it just sort of sucks. Then you realize you’re even more alone than you thought.

There are other groups that this fits - those reconciling with sex addicts, narcissists, serial cheaters, etc. There are different arguments for why those things equal bigger risks.

But what is the actual argument against reconciling with a non-parent? That’s what’s being asked. Why is there this hard line? There’s the logistical side (custody, etc). And there’s the emotional side (watching the pain of your kids which I just can’t even imagine). BUT you run that exact same risk staying whether kids are there or kids are not there yet. If you have kids - they have gone through it once and MAY go through it again. If you don’t yet, they haven’t gone through it once and MAY not ever go through it. To me, it’s not a good enough argument. But no one seems to be hearing that.

I’m not saying staying and having kids with a known cheater IS a great plan. My point is the common arguments don’t really hold up, and sometimes are quite ironic. To me it’s far more important to look at the WORK each BS and WS is putting in, rather than their circumstances. Also, we don’t feel supported or heard by the majority. In fact, we are made to feel like we are stupid or irresponsible or naive or pathetic. How does that fit a support group? We are all in this shitty boat together.

Edit: I appreciate the above reasons. Yes! It’s totally fine to say “I just don’t think it would be worth it to me - I need the goal of keeping an intact family in order to push through this shit”. There’s no judgement in that statement.

[This message edited by gtflng at 2:24 PM, June 10th (Monday)]

Another reason I would advise against it - it’s easy to let marriages slip a little when you have kids and activities tantrums and sleepless nights and no babysitters and life and all of the little things that kids can unfortunately bring to your marriage. I can understand how all of that can add up to a big enough crack to let someone else in. I don’t know how that happens when it’s just the two of you. What do you fight about? Why aren’t you going on dates? How did the affair start? What happens when life gets in the way? If you aren’t ever planning on having kids then it doesn’t matter, but if you are... Kids are great, but they can be really tough on a marriage. If a spouse cheats before kids, I just have a hard time understanding that.

First, I want to validate that your statement is true in that kids definitely complicate all aspects of life. As someone who has been married without and then had children, I understand your POV. Also, I understand you qualified as your POV and did state it as objective truth.

However, could you agree that reading the above could reasonably be interpreted to have a minimizing effect on those who do not have children? It fails to consider that careers, mental health issues, caring for elderly parents, etc. can affect a marriage or an individual just as much as children can. Children are a BIG responsibility but are only one form of it. You could also argue that if a couple is more aware post-infidelity, they could be more equipped to handle additional future responsibility of raising children. Not saying they will be, but I think the possibility is there.

I think that is what OP is expressing.

[This message edited by KingRat at 2:52 PM, June 10th (Monday)]