SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm a divorced BS. The experience in toto is more PTSD than insight providing. Stats show that BS are worse pickers than average going into subsequent relationships. Meaning that they did not learn to pick better partners. Or are too PTSD afflicted to have it be a rational process.

Striver, I don't know those stats, but I don't think that would apply to me in particular at this point. I can only speak for me. Yes, I have seen people leave abusive relationships and then find someone more abusive because they didn't work on themselves. I have picked badly and yet they were all completely different kinds of badly. I don't know if it's my picker or plain old bad luck or just an inability to read minds and see into the future, but the difference with me now is an awareness of what character traits are important to me and how to look for them in that person's relationship with everyone in their lives, not just with me. Anyone can display good character for a time with one person.

Anyway, regardless, I'm not anticipating that I'll pick someone for an actual relationship whom I'll lack empathy for, therefore I seriously doubt that I'll be cheating it up in the future.

Coco and seward, how else are you you suppose to feel desired? Secondly, the response to”why you need external desired?” Maybe because at the most general it feels amazing to be wanted and desired. And its human nature to want that.

Secondly “ra” isn't about one uping you WS its about healthy and getting past self pity and depression.

mondos,

My perspective as a WS who tried also to drown out feelings of depression and feeling badly about myself...you can't take shortcuts to healing. The affair is hollow, it's an escape, and it temporarily eased your mind and gave you some good feelings. Guess what happens when it's over? There is a big crash. The crash of having to go back and deal with reality, most WS experience this, and a BS doing this would not escape it either. You feel 1000 times worse suddenly. The dopamine hits are gone, you are now just looking at this person who cheated on you and feeling more depressed. It would have been much more efficient to have managed those feelings and worked on them, now it's like you had a vacation and you would rather do anything but that. You now have nothing to prop you up and you still have to go through the motions of trying to get your validation from yourself and your WS. (Every relationship has validation, I am talking about healthy validation).

That's why it's inadvisable, that's why I don't think it's in the best interest of the BS. It takes a lot of other choices away, and it gives the WS the feeling they are more even. To me, when you R, the thing that propels it forward for a long time is that the WS feels contrition, humbleness, that all the work is on them. This takes that element away. The WS has to win the BS back when the field isn't seen as even. I realize it's never even, and I would not see it this way now that I have grown and worked on myself, but if we are talking a new WS and a new BS there is too much justification going on by the WS and the BS is handing them ammunition.

Sometimes, it truly is better to divorce than to create the added pain for yourself. If you can't find a way to get your groove back with your spouse, then move on. You don't owe the WS anything. If you R, you R because you want to. And, if you want to R then why ruin some of the chances of it? Not because the WS won't take you back but because it does change the course and creates a lot of new obstacles that wouldn't be there.

There will always be a way to one-up your partner for anything if you look hard enough, but why bother staying married then?

I agree!

purposeful RA

I had a purposeful A and yes it was done out of malice and anger. I had no boundaries whatsoever at that point and didn't care. Impulsivity to the nines. I know better now. I have had to develop steel clad coping skills with my STBX's subsequent A's. I have not had any A's since nor EA's.

Do some soul searching about why you need that external validation.

With my RA I should have done my own soul searching, but I just don't think I was healthy enough at that point to do that. I wasn't in any kind of therapy and my coping skills were ziltch (I had none due to childhood sexual abuse). I had my A out of revenge I didn't need anyone's validation. I was truly evil and angry. I wanted my STBX to feel what I felt.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 12:52 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

how else are you you suppose to feel desired? Secondly, the response to”why you need external desired?” Maybe because at the most general it feels amazing to be wanted and desired. And its human nature to want that.

If it's human nature to feel this way, and there's no other way to feel desired other than externally:

Why are BS so confused about why WS cheat? You just answered the question yourself with "it's human nature to want that" and "it feels amazing to be wanted and desired."

Secondly “ra” isn't about one uping you WS its about healthy and getting past self pity and depression.

If sex with someone else is a healthy and understandable way to deal with depression, self pity, etc. then again, why is this so confusing and hurtful for BS when a WS does it?

This all reads like excuses for why it's acceptable for a BS to cheat. While I understand the motivation, it still isn't something very many people here are going to condone as okay behavior.

Why do BS expect their WS to find validation internally if "how else are you supposed to feel desired"?

My "RA" was kind of an act of insanity. I found out that he had been sleeping with prostitutes and I just kind of left my body. Like that weird white noise halo of a concussion or something. I couldn't feel any emotion at all even when I was confronting him and watching him sob. I was supposed to go to a meeting that afternoon. I just left, pulled into a parking lot, signed up to a dating site, found a guy, arranged it, deleted my profile, drove there and walked in like I was a sex goddess or something. Had fairly intense sex, left, and it was like feelings and thoughts returned on the way home and I didn't just cry, it was like my entire body and mind turned inside out. Screaming, not sobbing. I was utterly wrecked. I know that I am responsible for what I did, but I don't even clearly recall the thought process that went into it. I was acting and not really there, in some weird shock.

So yes, I've done a ton of processing why I would react in such a shocking way and what previous traumas were unearthed and so forth. But no, I cannot see what I did as being anything like what he did. I don't feel guilty for it so much as kind of appalled at myself. And no, of course it didn't fix anything. No, I wouldn't recommend it in the slightest. I can't say that I enjoyed it. I felt barely there for the whole thing. I would have been just as cool with this stranger stabbing me with a knife as with his penis. Dying wouldn't have been any more upsetting than anything else.

Not all RAs are the same. They are often committed at the absolute least sane time in a person's life. No one is okay shortly after DDay. RAs shortly after DDay get a lot of empathy from me. I don't see them as the right thing to do at all. I don't think that they fix the problem. But, I also don't put them in the same category as the original infidelity.

DevastatedDee,

FWIW, I can completely understand how any BS would have a reaction the day of, or the early days after an A.

So yes, I've done a ton of processing why I would react in such a shocking way and what previous traumas were unearthed and so forth. But no, I cannot see what I did as being anything like what he did. I don't feel guilty for it so much as kind of appalled at myself. And no, of course it didn't fix anything

I think this is the part where people were coming down on Buzzy - you were willing to look at yourself and process it. You are willing to see it didn't really fix anything, you still had to work your ass off to heal yourself from what your H did. And, I don't really think an RA under the type of scenario is anywhere in the ballpark of what your H brought into your life.

And, if you want to R then why ruin some of the chances of it? Not because the WS won't take you back but because it does change the course and creates a lot of new obstacles that wouldn't be there.

Hiking, I have to ask, what obstacles is an RA going to create exactly? If a BS feels he/she can move forward after having an RA, he/she can get past the emasculation and mind movies, the feelings of being unwanted, what exactly is wrong with that?

It seems to me that the obstacles you talk about is regarding the initial WS... Well, those are the consequences of their actions, don't you think?

[This message edited by DoormatSight at 2:43 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

Doormat,

I don't disagree that a lot of it is still the fallout of the initial affair. I don't think what I am talking about has anything to do with the consequences that a WS must encounter. I don't think that R is owed. Taking the WS completely out of things, it's about keeping all the options open for the BS with what I believe to be the least pain possible. To me, as a WS, an affair = pain. Not just to my bs, but it caused me a great deal of pain for a very long time. Some of it to do with my BS, but some of it not at all to do with my BS. Here is something I wrote on another thread this morning, and it explains my position on why I think it's just not good for the BS in general. Sorry if you read it already but I don't know how else to answer your question:

I am not heartless, I honestly would advocate for a BS to feel better any way they can. Of course we can understand the trauma and shock and the injustice. Putting morality aside, there are some very good reasons that I have for advocating against and all of them come from insight gained as a WS. And, this is really only if they don't know if they want R or want R. If you are going to separate, divorce, and this doesn't go against your moral code I can understand the train of thought you don't owe the WS anything.

1. It greatly decreases the chances of R, but not for just the reasons you think. I don't think many WS's will just stomp off and say "well you cheated it's a dealbreaker then". I mean some might be that dense, but maybe they would never be R material to begin with. I would like to say I would R, I know I would knowing what I knew deeper into my own therapy. I would attempt it today, I truly believe people can change because I believe I have. But, we are typically talking about early on when the WS has their head planted firmly up their ass. So, then you have the following things happening:

a. The BS is expecting the score to be evened out, but it isn't. The WS is not exhibiting the shock and trauma. They are hurt, mad or whatever but the element of surprise is really gone. They can further interpret that as further proof the WS doesn't give a damn about them. Then, the WS is expecting that the score is settled and an entire new dynamic is at play. The WS doesn't feel as beholdened or humble, and IMO this is a critical aspect as to what makes R move forward.

b. Entanglement. So, to be ethical the BS goes to find a single person to have an affair with. Based on what I know by looking for good feelings from someone else, that may need to be more than a ONS. But, let's even assume a ONS. A single person willing to sleep with a married person, there is an agenda there more times than not. Single people are free to sleep with other single people, so one that picks a married one likely has some issues of their own. And this maybe assumes this is a BH and a single female. I actually think a BW could find a man less complicated. Are they looking for a KISA? Likely. They think they can snag the married man away. Or they are a KISA themselves "saving the BS from their awful spouse", or a bunny boiler. The other aspect is this is how limerence even can start because they keep going back for the good feelings to escape their bad feelings.

c. You can't escape healing. The affair is hollow, it's an escape, and it temporarily eased your mind and gave you some good feelings. Guess what happens when it's over? Oh, the crash. The crash of having to go back and deal with reality, most WS experience this, and a BS doing this would not escape it either. You feel 1000 times worse suddenly. The dopamine hits are gone, you are now just looking at this person who cheated on you and feeling more depressed. It would have been much more efficient to have managed those feelings and worked on them, now it's like you had a vacation and you would rather do anything but that. You now have nothing to prop you up and you still have to go through the motions of trying to get your validation from yourself and your WS. (Every relationship has validation, I am talking about healthy validation).

The fallout of cheating is never worth the cheating itself. Cheating is always a temporary relief from something you need to address anyway. Will it take longer to do some of the sexual healing with your WS? Yeah, but no longer than it will after you had an affair. The BS ends up bringing themselves more pain. On the other end of that, I think the BS MIGHT see how hollow an affair is, that affair sex isn't what many BS think it is, and that people who are hurting hurt other people. It may give them enough insight to understand what the WS experience is. But the cost to do it is so great, they could get that knowledge through therapy, books, and hopefully a remorseful WS.

But, R is not for everyone, and I am not suggesting it is. I am saying that when a BS hasn't made up their mind about it, they may be cutting off their nose despite their face. Almost all my advice against it outside of some of the thoughts about betraying ones own integrity still lies in the further damage that I know a BS is going to put themselves through. Because RA's have some of the same elements of an affair, and I can tell you what's hiding under that rock ain't as pretty as it might look not having ever having experienced the other side. As for Divorce, you may or may not lose your legal advantage depending on where you live. A BS has a lot to lose with an affair

.

I have read posts on here discussing integerity, morals, the high ground, this is easy looking back from a distance but in the early period of dscovery i would have done almost anything to cause my WW the pain i felt and i did.

Most of us have human feelings and failings and looking through boiling emotions intergerityand morals dont really come into it.

I had no regrets about my imo justified RA for a long while and even those i have now are for the way i acted after the RA ended such as showing indifference for my wifes pain.

I was not verbaly abusive but a lot of cold shouldering went on.

Hiking, I have to ask, what obstacles is an RA going to create exactly? If a BS feels he/she can move forward after having an RA, he/she can get past the emasculation and mind movies, the feelings of being unwanted, what exactly is wrong with that?

It seems to me that the obstacles you talk about is regarding the initial WS... Well, those are the consequences of their actions, don't you think?

This assumes that the WS isn't going to feel victimized by the subsequent affair or that this will not affect how the WS feels about BSs afterward the RA. That he or she will simply be able to process that logic and wipe the slate clean. In my experience, human nature doesn't work like that. Should that happen? No. Does that happen? All the time. So if the relationship is further harmed due to the RA, isn't that just a natural consequence of the prior actions? If some asshole hits on wife and I hit him, that's a natural consequence. If I get arrested for assaulting him, that is also a natural consequence.

Just like a person found guilty of a crime should logically be able to understand that his/her prison sentence is a natural consequent of their actions. Yet, you have an institution full of perpetrators that feel victimized.

There is this preoccupation with the conditional tense of verbs in these threads and it completely disregards that life does not operate with "should's" but rather with "is's" and "will's."

Hiking, I have to ask, what obstacles is an RA going to create exactly?

WS might feel like, "great, we're even now" and no longer feel motivated at all to work on their end of things to fix what was broken.

WS might feel victimized, whether or not that is fair. Now WS pain and feeling of betrayal is something both partners will need to work through in order to R.

WS might feel justified in their affair and justified in choosing to continue contact (if they feel their A was not as bad as the RA for whatever reason).

If a BS feels he/she can move forward after having an RA, he/she can get past the emasculation and mind movies, the feelings of being unwanted, what exactly is wrong with that?

What happens if BS has an RA and feels better for a short time, but then goes back to feeling emasculated, having mind movies, feeling rejected and undesired, etc.?

Basically those of us who have cheated on our spouses, for the most part, have said that cheating is a bandaid. It's procrastination. It's a distraction. All of those feelings that all of us were trying to avoid by choosing to have affairs eventually came back around. We had to deal with them.

This may happen with the BS too. Which is why most people are not recommending this as a way of coping.

Revenge affairs are really nothing like the original transgression. The mechanism that kicks it off is entirely different and the direct result of being cheated on. My WW didn’t have mind movies. She didn’t feel the sting on comparison. She didn’t feel emasculated. She didn’t have a bunch of brand new insecurities to contend with. I did not need to rewrite marital history to paint myself as a victim like she did either. That shit was in my face daily.

I got to deal with a woman that cheated, blamed me, lied, exposed me to a bunny boiler and whatever infections he had, exposed me to a nutty other betrayed spouse, and endangered my children directly - not just their future. She lacked remorse, regret, empathy, and felt somewhat justified in her actions. I dealt with glacial improvement on these issues for almost 2 years. Then she, in therapy, she said she thought the OM was a good guy. Mind you this dude tossed her under the bus for spite after she ended the affair. That’s when I told her I was going outside the marriage too. She could leave if she didn’t agree. That is not a fucking thing like my experience in betrayal.

We really didn’t have a marriage after her A. That fucker was nuked from orbit. I didn’t really feel like I was risking anything. So fucking what if she left. Hell, I was speaking to lawyers at the time myself.

So I slept with an ex that always kept in touch. Ex and I were never exclusive when we dated before. Honestly, she was more of a FWB in the old days. She was not married. Up until that point I was faithful. I didn’t even flirt with other women. I did everything right. I provided for my family. I raised my children. I was a damn Boy Scout troop leader for my son. I coached t ball and helped coach soccer for my kids too. I fixed shit around the house. I took care of her car and always made sure it was washed and reliable. She always had the “better” vehicle. I virtually never drank to excess. I didn’t gamble. I don’t use drugs. I helped with household duties. I cooked dinner more often than she did. And she cheated because she needed attention and thought I didn’t love her. I also worked too much and expected her to do too much.

So I cheated for roughly a year. I wasn’t kind about it either. I rubbed the whole ordeal in her face. I saw the AP 2-3 times a week. I didn’t lie or sneak around. I didn’t hide my phone. I made my wife an emotional wreck and it turns out she didn’t like the taste of her own medicine. Anytime she would ask “how I could be so cruel” or something similar I would toss the same exact question back to her. She did get a crash course in empathy. She completely changed her tune. I really don’t know why she didn’t leave. I do think part of my motivation was forcing her to file. I was having a hard time pulling the D trigger. I felt a tremendous amount of guilt even talking to a lawyer.

I cheated again about a year after the RA ended. I’m not sure I would call that relationship an RA. It was basically what’s outlined in “Not Just Friends”. I wasn’t looking for it, but I damn sure didn’t enforce any boundaries either. It’s hard for me to discuss. I ended up being hurt terribly. I hurt the OW horribly too. I spent a bunch of time in IC afterwards. I now have to deal with my WW’s betrayal and my actions in the second RA (or just A). I lied to my WW during this time. I lied to the OW. too. I was an asshole. This situation bothers me. The first rodeo? Not so much.

So don’t assume all RAs are like normal affairs. The two things are entirely different animals.

Hiking, there is a lot I disagree with in your post.

1a. To even out doesn't necessary mean cheating just to cheat. It is to get your mojo back. To feel good about youself again. To feel you still have it. To love past the despair.

That is what it means to "even out". Yes, this is about needing validation from others. With tbr pain caused by cheating, it is monumental to get outside validation because otherwise, a BS will not be abLife to move forward from feeling worthless.

Now, after all of this, if the WS doesn't want to do the work, then he or she will simply have to get divorced. Why? Because the RA is generally not an attack on the WS but to make the BS feel like they are still wanted. The reason why many marriages don't survive after infidelity is because of that reason.

1b. This seems to be an excuse made up by a WS. I think you are deeply trying to make excuse for where there are none. Finding someone in today's time, with NSA, is an easy as making tea. Some people just want to have sex and have no feelings involved. If your BS finds someone and has an emotional connection with them, then it is clear your marriage wasn't going to survive anyway.

1c. This seems to be about excuse made up by a WS. Sure after the affair is done, all the emotional impact from the affairs comes back but the difference this time is the fact that a BS can now manage it a little easier than before. Why? Because now, in a sense, there is no inequality in the relationship. Both spouses got a dose of hurt. Both spouses now know the hurt (to a certain degree) of being a WS and BS.

I would say this actually makes it easier to R than just being a BS.

WS might feel like, "great, we're even now" and no longer feel motivated at all to work on their end of things to fix what was broken

Then that is in the WS. If you have a truly remorseful WS, an RA won't alter the work they will put in to make themselves better.

WS might feel victimized, whether or not that is fair. Now WS pain and feeling of betrayal is something both partners will need to work through in order to R.

And that is okay. Atleast they will be able to properly R.

WS might feel justified in their affair and justified in choosing to continue contact (if they feel their A was not as bad as the RA for whatever reason).

Than that is on the WS. And a WS like that is not worth if reconciliation to begin with. Because they haven't learned anything.

What happens if BS has an RA and feels better for a short time, but then goes back to feeling emasculated, having mind movies, feeling rejected and undesired, etc.?

Well then, they were never going to move past the cheating anyway... With or without the RA.

Basically those of us who have cheated on our spouses, for the most part, have said that cheating is a bandaid. It's procrastination. It's a distraction. All of those feelings that all of us were trying to avoid by choosing to have affairs eventually came back around. We had to deal with them.

And no one said you shouldn't. That is the work a WS has to put in either way.

This may happen with the BS too. Which is why most people are not recommending this as a way of coping.

No one is saying a BS doesn't need to put work in to make the marriage work. But if there is a constant feeling of injustice, the BS won't be ABLE to accomplish what is needed of him or her.

But if there is a constant feeling of injustice, the BS won't be ABLE to accomplish what is needed of him or her.

Okay, but if an RA is truly not as bad as the initial A itself, how does that accomplish "justice"?

The WS has a machete and stabs BS in the chest. So BS grab a steak knife and stabs WS in the leg. That's justice? You really feel like there isn't an imbalance anymore?

You do realize that keeping score and holding onto resentments in the marriage is how many WS justify their affairs in the first place, right? I know I did that as a WS. I felt so justified because my spouse was imperfect and had also damaged the marriage in many ways.

The idea of keeping score is faulty and unhealthy in the first place and the only way to heal the marriage is for both partners to move beyond that.

Have you ever had an affair doormat? Or did you have one after dday?

I am not making up excuses. All of these things are either my experience or some I have routinely read about. Have you ever been to an ow forum? These women will do anything to land their married man. It’s a fucked up person who goes off with a married person, AP’s are shitty people. And yes - I was a shitty person, but it takes one to know one.

I have no reason to provide an excuse. My h didn’t have any affairs. I have no reason to tell anyone any of this other than the fact that through my own experience I have learned the utter destruction affairs cause not only to others but to the people having them. Affairs are hollow things that if you need them to feel good you will go back time after time. And then you can leave one shitty person for another. But you are free to do that, sometimes people have to learn these things for themselves.

Heart breaker are you serious? The BS is surprised and heart broken because their WS promised in there vows to love only their bs and ONLY to accept non platonic love / validation from their BS. and its not in the same when a BS sleeps after DDay and before reconciliation because BS is healing from the TRAUMA of infidelity. Its really not hard to understand

Heart breaker are you serious? The BS is surprised and heart broken because their WS promised in there vows to love only their bs and ONLY to accept non platonic love / validation from their BS. and its not in the same when a BS sleeps after DDay and before reconciliation because BS is healing from the TRAUMA of infidelity. Its really not hard to understand