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I have to say, this wasn't really a RA but a one-sided open marriage.

Why?

Because your wife knew what you were doing and by the definition of an affair, this wasn't it.

I can appreciate what you are saying in that there was no lie, and that would mean less betrayal. Many WS run the whole thing into the ground with their lies upon lies after DDAY.

But, on the flip side of this, it's a different form of torture. Let's say I am at home with our children, and my husband is in Spain with my friend Claire. And, he has told me that he intends to have sex with her. The entire time I am sitting there in anguish about what they are doing. I have young kids and she does not - she runs - she is fit. What will happen? I get why not many feels badly for the WS in this situation but that is still pain and hurt added to the marriage that if the marriage continues will have to be dealt with. I don't think you can dub this as an open marriage of any sort, because open marriage is agreed upon with rules and standards in place. This is openly cheating.

I think what most people are trying to tell buzzy is there is still a legitimate wound there he is going to have to address to move forward with the marriage. (which he has said in the other forum he does want that) If he didn't, I don't even think I would comment on his thread.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:50 AM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

I can appreciate what you are saying in that there was no lie, and that would mean less betrayal. Many WS run the whole thing into the ground with their lies upon lies after DDAY.

Ok...

But, on the flip side of this, it's a different form of torture. Let's say I am at home with our children, and my husband is in Spain with my friend Claire. And, he has told me that he intends to have sex with her. The entire time I am sitting there in anguish about what they are doing. I have young kids and she does not - she runs - she is fit. What will happen? I get why not many feels badly for the WS in this situation but that is still pain and hurt added to the marriage that if the marriage continues will have to be dealt with. I don't think you can dub this as an open marriage of any sort, because open marriage is agreed upon with rules and standards in place. This is openly cheating.

This is why I said it is a one-sided open marriage and that is still correct. This is not cheating, you are making it seem so.

That's ridiculous. Noone is coming after Buzzy on a high horse. I have said countless times that I understand why Buzzy did what he did, and can empathize with his reasoning. Anything after that was to help Buzzy get some perspective on moving forward in his marriage which he has publically stated in the WS forum that is what he wants. He is taking his wife away for the weekend so they can begin that. I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to take some accountability, and to go NC with his AP. Maybe what you are not understanding is when someone comes to the Wayward forum what we are telling them is basically to learn from our bad decisions and the issues that we had. This forum is about getting out of infidelity not supporting it.

Actually, they are Hiking. We are not talking about you specifically but on both this and the Wayward forum, they are.

Took me a while to read this whole thread.

I too, saw a lot of WS saying, "NO! Don't do it!" along with how awful it would be. Um, but they thought nothing of doing it. They thought they were worthy of redemption and change. They gutted their spouse, humiliated them, sexually devastated them.

I wonder if it's because they DO know how painful it is and although it was okay for them, they wouldn't want it done to them (hence, the lying during the affair) and now that it's out in the open, they take a moral high ground so that their BS won't 'feel better temporarily' in the arms or company of someone else? And, since THEY thought they deserved a second chance, why would they NOT give it to their BS if they mad hattered? No, it's not saying, "Go ahead!" but more like, "I guess I had it coming. But can we now see each other's POV and can we now move forward, giving US another chance and STAY monogamous?

Because I don't think there's many BS here that if they answered honestly, haven't at least thought what it'd be like to be with someone else - even for a little while - who made them feel special even if they knew it couldn't/wouldn't go further.

I've read posts where there were separations and the BS either had sex with someone else or dated and no sex. It built their self-esteem and they were more apt to deal with moving forward with R.

I am NOT saying for anyone to have an affair because their spouse did. But honestly, I couldn't totally blame them, either depending on how it all went down. I'm human. We're all human and there are basic needs - trust, honesty, safety. We didn't get that from you. We aren't sure it's really there now. People don't get character transplants.

Would I? I'm certainly not looking for it. Absolutely not planning in. Ew. But because I do not trust my WH and because there is a connection that will forever be gone (at least that's how I feel now), I cannot say that IF I ever met someone and they totally knew the score and they made me feel that special? I wouldn't be beyond an EA for certain, PA? I'd like to say no, but I can't say it with 100% authority.

Sorry, WS. For many of us, the damage is done and although we can R to some extent (some more than others), we may never feel the same toward you again and in fact, may harbor feelings/thoughts for others that we would NEVER have considered before. We may even stray once and NEVER tell YOU (after all, we're darn sure you never told us EVERYTHING).

Sure. We may tell you we love you and things are great. But I wonder if that is in part that everyone applies so much pressure on us to stay quiet and not act or talk or feel the pain that stays with us forever.

Is that crappy? Absolutely. From your part all the way down the line to ours. We would have preferred for both of us to have remained faithful and 100% trustworthy. For some of us, no matter what you tell us or how many times you mow the yard, make the meals, buy us stuff - we know that you actively deceived us and those don't prove you wouldn't do it again.

Does it give us the right? Did whatever FOO issues your had give you the right? If you want forgiveness and second chances and stay, then I think it's hypocritical to pass judgment and not do the same for the BS. Hate on me or us all you want for having these thoughts. At least they're thoughts for some of us. It may never happen, but the seed is there.

[This message edited by OptionedOut at 10:49 AM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

This is why I said it is a one-sided open marriage and that is still correct. This is not cheating, you are making it seem so

An open marriage is agreed upon, with RULES and permission. That's not what this is.

Also adding, that for my WH and his whole family, NOTHING and I repeat, NOTHING works on them. The only thing they ever understand is when the same thing happens to them and then POW!

It's like they never learned consequences and even the punishment of therapy or job loss or someone being angry with them Does Not Compute. Literally. Blank faces. Excuses. No empathy. Zero understanding. It's like trying to explain physics to a kid. Blank stares, total and absolute lack of understanding. It's arrogance, sure. But you can just see the total lack of understanding.

WH fears I'll do the same. I don't tell him otherwise. I just change the subject. Of course, he feared what would happen to start with because he lied out his ass for years. Still IS lying, IMO. Adults with alone time together in another state, a single woman accepting dinner and movies and the like from a married man and showing up at his hotel? A failed poly? Yeah. He's lying out his ass that nothing physical happened and that he knew he was dancing on the line, but as long as no one touched genitals or kissed or fucked, it wasn't 'really' that bad.

ETA: example. SIL worked for company where she handled paperwork for layoffs and forced early retirement. Her thoughts at the time? Hey, a company has to do what it has to do and these people will just have to deal. They will find other work. Then it happened to her and she LOST it! For years!

When my mother passed, she was sorry, but said that I'd get over it. When their mother passed? Well, let's say that years of therapy haven't helped and she cries at the drop of a hat and chronically posts about mothers in heaven on FB.

[This message edited by OptionedOut at 11:02 AM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

Mrs wallpoed, i think the hypocritical part is that when you were in your affair you knew it was wrong. You said it yourself. You still cheated when in knew in your heart it was wrong . You compartmentalized it. When you had a good marriage. It was hypocritical that you were pissed that your ap lied about not being married when you were betraying your spouse and were married yourself. You must have cheated because you gave yourself the green light to cheat. So if you knew it was wrong then and and you know its wrong now, what changed?

Also it’s pretty damn funny that a BS who has a “RA” or thinking about one is treated with contempt and disdain (based on the tone). But the original WS is shown sympathy and caring environment on the WS forum. Almost like its hard for WS to even imagine and feel like what its like to get cheated on

Wow...Lot's of moral gymnastics going on here.

Not sure why a lot of people think that....well...under some situations...circumstances...cheating is ok.

Cheating is wrong. Period. Full Stop. End of discussion.

This applies to any form of cheating. With your spouse, on a test, in a sport...whatever.

Not a hard concept to grasp.

But feel free to justify away as to why - in your SPECIAL case - it's ok.

[NB: That's called Wayward thinking.]

folks sure come out of the woodwork for this topic.

Actually, they are Hiking. We are not talking about you specifically but on both this and the Wayward forum, they are.

Only because he is justifying it as okay. It’s not because we don’t understand or sympathize with his pain. If he said that he was in pain and he shouldn’t have and it was wrong and so on, that’s a very different story than what he’s doing which is saying it’s okay to cheat because she cheated first. That’s why I at least am against that.

and although it was okay for them,

Please point to where any of the WS’s you’re referring to said it was okay for them.

The whole point is that it was not okay for us. It’s not okay for anyone.

You must have cheated because you gave yourself the green light to cheat. So if you knew it was wrong then and and you know its wrong now, what changed?

I don’t want to make this about me personally. We can discuss in the Wayward forum if you wish.

However, nowhere have I ever said I’m a perfect person or that I didn’t do something horribly wrong. I did. That doesn’t mean it’s okay because I did it too. About what’s changed, 4 years of therapy and work and growth and better tools and understanding and living with the repercussions of the damage I caused. Isn’t that a good thing that I can unequivocally say it’s wrong in all cases including my own? Would it better if I tried to justify my own A? Of course not.

But based on your post, I’m glad to see we agree that it’s wrong.

I'm curious what the people who believe RAs are justified think about my story.

My BF had an ONS before I cheated on him. He hooked up with his sister's best friend while drunk at a party. The next time he saw me, he attempted to come clean but chickened out and backpedaled when I started crying. He hid the truth from me for the next 18 months. During this time, he suggested the option of seeing other people, but I wasn't interested. I worried about why he wanted that on the table, but he assured me that it was hypothetical and everything was fine.

Eventually, I became attracted to OM. I suggested that I should date him casually. BF agreed, with a clear boundary of no sex (he hadn't slept with OW). Over the next four months, I broke all agreed-upon conditions and engaged in a full blown EA/PA. BF was working out of town and did not learn this until I confessed when the A was over.

BF was devastated. He now disclosed that he had cheated before but felt that my A wiped his slate clean. I ended the PA but refused to go NC, saying I could stay "just friends" with OM. This ongoing contact traumatized BF, who felt that he needed an RA, not to punish me but in order to heal and regain his sense of desirability. He specifically chose someone whose boyfriend had cheated on her, whom he knew was attracted to him and down for NSA. He told me who it was and when he would be with her, so I knew what was happening in real time. I was crushed but didn't feel like I had the right to say no. I hoped that it would even the score and take some blame off me.

Where in this shitshow was anyone's behavior productive or healthy? Or "fair?" Would I have been entitled to my A if my BF had told me about his ONS right after he cheated? Did I not qualify as a BS because I was lied to as well as cheated on? If so, what's the moral of that story? Were we "even" when I confessed? Or did BF have a right to cheat again because I didn't know I'd already been betrayed when I cheated?

This is why I say that cheating is wrong. Always wrong. There is no behavior or special circumstance that makes it ok. It's all the same wayward pattern of unhealthy validation, projection and entitlement. Both of us should have known that sexual contact with an AP had the potential to end the relationship. Both of us had the option of ending it ourselves and being completely free to fuck whomever we wanted. Neither of us did because we wanted to have our cake and eat it too. That's no one's fault but our own.

An open marriage is agreed upon, with RULES and permission. That's not what this is

It still is. That is why I said ONE-SIDED. The wife brought this upon herself, her permission on it matters not. As long as she knows what is going on, it is an open marriage.

Only because he is justifying it as okay. It’s not because we don’t understand or sympathize with his pain. If he said that he was in pain and he shouldn’t have and it was wrong and so on, that’s a very different story than what he’s doing which is saying it’s okay to cheat because she cheated first. That’s why I at least am against that

Well, if it makes him move past the mind movies and allows him to reconcile, IT WAS OKAY FOR HIM. It seems you also missed the part where he said he wouldn't have cheated if she wouldn't have.

Sometimes, an eye for an eye works wonders.

I don’t think it “rebalances” things in a positive way. I think more often than not it gives the original WS ammunition to “call it even” and say “see, you’re just as bad!” and gives both BS/WS spouses an excuse to not do any work on themselves or the marriage. If you want your WS to point the finger right back at you and tell you to STFU about her affair because you cheated too, then go for it

Nope. I wouldn't accept this, because the RA wouldn't have been happening if WS hadn't planned, worked up to, and implemented his EA and PA over a good length of time. There is no way it's the same thing at all. (Not that I've had a RA, but you know what I mean.)

Or did BF have a right to cheat again because I didn't know I'd already been betrayed when I cheated?

Your boyfriend cheated again because of you inability to go no contact with you AP. It is all right there in your post. You pushed him to another RA by your actions.

[This message edited by DoormatSight at 4:30 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)]

Sometimes, an eye for an eye works wonders.

And in all cases both people end up blind.

Your boyfriend cheated again because of you inability to go no contact with you AP. It is all right there in your post. You pushed him to another RA by your actions.

But then where does it end?

A WS has a 6-month A. Their BS has a 6-year RA. Does that mean it's OK for the WS to cheat again while the original BS has their RA, because 6 years is a hell of a lot longer than 6 months? And then, wouldn't that just push the original BS into the RA for longer, now that original WS is cheating again?

Where the fuck does it end?

When BraveSirRobin's WS had an RA, then would it have been OK for her to start up her A again, only now it would be an RA? By your logic, he would have pushed her into it by his own actions.

Where is the health in that? Why would you want either person to get stuck in such an unhealthy cycle?

This thread makes me wonder how often BSes cheat in their next relationship, even if they never have before. One, they might see their ex get away with it and think "why not me too, where's my freedom to do whatever I want, with whomever". Two, they might adopt a "strike first" mentality. Third, maybe they just don't see relationships as sacred because "nobody else does".

Because if someone's going to do all that while still with the cheater, why not with someone rlse?

This thread makes me wonder how often BSes cheat in their next relationship, even if they never have before

Not any more than they would have originally, I think. At least in my case, any A would be totally due to the fact that I was with an unfaithful spouse, who proved they didn't value monogamy. An A in response would only be relevant to this person. If I were with someone else who I trusted was being faithful to me, I would be faithful too. I wouldn't want to 'get in first', because I don't naturally have a W mindset.