SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Do you think there is an element of the BS simply not liking the WS, as a person? In a long-term marriage relationship there are multiple layers of feeling: erotic love, filial love, trust, empathy, understanding, friendship (liking the person as a person), trust, kinship born of sharing struggles together, etc. Not all of these always exist, but you get my drift.

We keep going back to WWTL's story, but in his case I think it was possibly that he simply didn't like his WW. The nature and degree of her A revealed something about her character that he had not previously seen in her, but once seen, it could not be unseen.

I agree with the revelation of character (it’s in a quote in my tag line in fact from Robert McKee).

But like WWTL I liked my wife a whole hell of a lot before the affair. I loved her. I still love all of the things about her that had me in a faithful bond on my side for a quarter of a century.

I don’t like what was revealed and she still hasn’t done work to explain it. It still baffles her apparently. so I’m left with the ugly revelation. I don’t like it. I can’t unsee it. And I don’t want to be around it.

It isn’t on the BS to “get over” or “get past” anything. I think this is impossible and sets an unreasonable expectation for BS.

It’s up to the WS to be remorseful, have deep life lasting repentance and offer recompense. This can help ameliorate the transgression, but that’s all.

Short of a frontal lobotomy, a BS is never going to “get past” it unless of course he or she removes themselves from the very source of pain.

As BS, if we don't get past the trauma, R or D, we're stuck LIVING in that trauma. The goal is healing, and the WS can't do it for us. We have to do it for ourselves. Life isn't static, it's fluid, more like a leaf floating on a stream. We move through time and our perspective changes as we observe our changing surroundings. That is, unless we anchor ourselves to our trauma and refuse to allow the current to take us. The WS doesn't make that decision for us. They can't wave a magic wand over our heads and make us let go of the bank. We have to choose it for ourselves. We have to heal ourselves. And no amount of shaking our fists and crying to the heavens about how unfair it is can change that.

It doesn't matter if the WS is present or not unless the WS is unrepentant and toxic. The choice to heal still has to be made and we still have to apply effort to get it done.

D is your choice and that's fine for YOU. But the whole idea that there shouldn't be any choice at all and everyone should D doesn't account for how many marriages are recovered after infidelity.

We have to heal ourselves.

True enough but the “get past” version of that is “stop limping around even tho that hit and run permanently damaged your leg.”

You can rehab that leg and do much better with it than right after you were medivac’d to the hospital. But the injury changes the leg permanently.

I can “get past” it in the sense of being able to live a normal and happy life - but I’m permanently altered by this. I can’t think of a BS who would be able to say they aren’t.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:01 AM, September 13th (Sunday)]

how many marriages are recovered after infidelity.

We don’t have many good sources of data for this. Most of it seems quite old and selective.

This is just me but I find “stronger, better” claims suspect at face value given that most of what can be claimed as “improvements” are things a BS reasonably would have expected prior to infidelity and can easily get with another person who (bonus!) never cheated on them.

...the “get past” version of that is “stop limping around even tho that hit and run permanently damaged your leg.”

The point is though that this doesn't have to be a permanent injury. Yeah, a scar maybe. An ache when it rains. But no limping, no crutches or canes. Good healing is like occasionally noticing the ghost of a pain. Good healing means that you don't distrust others, but rather than you take a bit more time sizing them up. It's not as bleak as you think it is. And yes... we need to "get past" it to the extent we move on and leave the trauma behind. We might not like the sound of the words, but it is what it is. There ARE people who hold onto their trauma, people who stay on that bank... and they don't get better.

You don't need statistics. You've had HoldingTogether tell you right here on this thread that his marriage is fine and that their communications are the best they've ever been. It doesn't matter if it's one couple. For people who truly want R, it wouldn't matter if the odds were low. You didn't want R, so that's YOUR choice. Other people do and they aren't wrong to want that.

I don’t think they are wrong and would never say that. I do think the odds are a very steep uphill climb.

HT’s list was great - but as I already pointed out it was things any faithful spouse should reasonably expect absent infidelity and would easily be able to get with someone else who never cheated on them.

So then you’re still left with the very intentional adultery.

We have to choose it for ourselves. We have to heal ourselves

.

I totally agree with this. I also want to add that trauma is a brain injury, and along with deciding to heal ourselves, we need to remember that our brain needs to heal itself, and this will happen organically. We can wish to heal, but that's really out of our scope. I can wish my broken arm heals and the bones fuse back, as much as I want. It will happen when it happens. And that's why self care is so important. We don't re-injure ourselves constanly or are in situations where we get traumatized again and again. But healing, in my eyes, is as much an attitude as it is an organic process, with the brain chemistry balancing itself again and repairing the damage in the affected parts (which caused us to go in the fight or flight mode, catastrophizing etc, at least for me).

Only my opinion, though.

Good healing means that you don't distrust others, but rather than you take a bit more time sizing them up.

Vetting is limited. Like "dealbreakers" for choosing a new partner, there are a limited number of those you can invoke before you run out of partner candidates. Like three or so.

Many people here are the victims of cheating partners who hid their actions or desires for decades. Who came from intact families and had good examples. Who were good partners until they weren't.

So in my case it's the triumph of experience over hope. I might have faithful people, might not. I'll enjoy what I have until it lasts.

That all comes at a significant cost, by the way. I know very much the remarriage statistics, the statistics on life expectancy for divorced men. You can say those are just statistics. To me, they are reality based on conditions on the ground.

For myself the reveal of character post D-Day and how he handled the aftermath was worse than the A. When I first discovered the A I was hyper focused on the A, and was for years then over time watching my STBX’s reactions to my pain and not ever wanting to discuss the A’s or do any self examination killed whatever image I had of him. He became a stranger to me. I know I wouldn’t have married the man he is today.

** Posting as a member **

...I already pointed out it was things any faithful spouse should reasonably expect absent infidelity....

An assumption that could generate that phrase is that every relationship - life - is static.

That's false. Relationships evolve. I've loved my W since shortly after I met her, but my ability to express that love has grown over time, as has her ability to express love.

WRT things a spouse should reasonably expect in M, we all start M with certain levels of skill. As time flows, the skill levels may very well change. I'd hate to have to ask a woman out on a date, for example. Our M was on a certain trajectory. That got interrupted, and we decided on a new and different trajectory.

A relationship can be interrupted by all sorts of things - death, divorce, one or more children, new opportunities, illnesses, injuries, unexpected rewards, war, flood, pestilence, pandemic, etc., etc., etc..

We all choose, if only by default, how we'll respond to every interruption. One person who grew up in a community of Nazi death camp survivors says that some people in the community didn't die; others lived. I've seen it myself in my parents' generation - some people spend their last years bemoaning the losses of friends and abilities; others keep their zest for life even while experiencing the ravages of age on their bodies and even while mourning the loss of lifelong friends.

Do you know people who have suffered great losses in their lives and still find joy? Being betrayed is a loss. Betraying is a loss. And yet you can't conceive of couples coming together after infidelity, changing their behavior, and choosing to make the relationship more satisfying and joyful than it was before?

Can't or won't conceive of that possibility? What do you gain by thinking a relationship can't be better after infidelity? What would you have give up to believe what people like Shirley Glass, CT, HT, and I say about possibilities of R?

You can continue to look for new ways to punish WSes with words in an anonymous Internet forum, or you can resolve your own pain. Your choice.

Believe me, resolving pain doesn't let your WS off any hook, and dealing with the issues that aris in R is the opposite of letting your WS off the hook.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:28 AM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

I do not believe it possible for my WW to ever understand the damage done to my mind. In this way, I feel she's far too quick about "moving on" and I have told her exactly that. As a matter of fact I sent her this message a few days ago when I reached a break point, stopped responding to her and she became unsettled:

"I'm in an awful place. It feels like our relationship is stuck in a wash, rinse, repeat cycle and it's maddening for me. I don't want to have the kids feel I am angry with them or that I think they are bad so I am at the shop.

Communication is getting worse for us, not better. I hear you ask me, "is there anything you want to talk about?" But if I'm open with you about it, I feel like you dread me actually taking you up on the question...and that you know I feel that way. Yet, the duty to ask has been completed, it can be checked off the to-do list and no more effort is necessary because, technically, you already asked me. Sex is introduce as a conflict-sedative and then "all is well" for a time. So my insides build up because there is no real emotional communication for me and I am left feeling emotionally stranded.

From when you opened a dialog with me in Feb. 2019 through Oct. 2019, you asked me "is there anything you want to talk about/ask me" countless times. I can't speak of how genuinely you ask me these days. But in 2019 I learned how my questions didn't merit honest answers, expressing my well-founded doubt was discredited and my feelings were punishments according to you. So now I don't speak regardless of how terrible I may feel and you don't do more than repeat a question that you know I'll not speak on. Because I perceive that you understand this cycle, and real communication is nonexistent, this becomes my reality. My gut feels like you want to avoid hearing my pain because it makes you feel bad and if that comes at an emotional cost to me you ignore that. But this is not a new thing I am sharing with you. I've shared this how many times now?

In general, the most I can bring myself to express is how I feel about stuff around the house. When I start to feel as though my superficial expressions about the house are not respected, everything just becomes too much again and the feelings of being alone are compounded. I've expressed how the long history of you treating me unwelcome in the very homes I worked hard(which was simultaneously under fire/mocked) to pay for created scar tissue. You may see home/kid things as very minor but I lived feeling very disrespected by you for many years and even though I'm not going to beg you for respect or shed a tear about it, that doesn't mean I'll ignore the implications of disrespect. It becomes just another problem to deal with.

I also see the good when you step out of your comfort zone for me. But shortly after you start to do things which show me effort in the areas I need it most, you always stop. You always have a reason or excuse for halting....but still, the effort ends. I don't bring it up and it remains halted. But if I express myself, it's "punishment", you turtle up, we have sex...wash, rinse, repeat... The same way I came home last week and you told me how you can't listen to the audio book anymore because it makes you feel bad and is too much. When you did this you were even a bit hot towards me and said how I "constantly bring the audio book up" which was not accurate. I've keenly paid attention to when I have said anything about audio books, videos, websites, etc. But what exactly do you think it is that I live with every day [WW's name]? Do you believe that as you can make a choice to not listen to an audio book, I can decide to not expose myself to all the things done to me that make me feel awful? That I can flip a switch and the thing that wants to harm me is no longer effective? When you do things like this you are essentially saying that you'd rather not experience my pain and you're good with me being stranded on an emotional island.

When I look at how this cycle continues I ask myself, why at the core of our relationship do I feel no more able to openly speak with you than I did a year ago? Why does it feel like my wife is unwilling to expose herself to the pain she was the source of? Why do I feel as though I am traveling this road of betrayal recovery alone?

Now this is out of the way, I am getting back to work in the shop to try and keep my mind occupied with something productive."

Yesterday, I think my words began to actually sink in and I've seen a quality change in attitude. Right now, I am not getting my hopes up. I've seen flashes in the pan...but I am open to change also.

I don't know any of you but I do have buddies who experienced something similar and I've observed men suffer in a way woman just don't understand when it comes to a BS (...not that they don't have their own version which is the same VS husbands). If I had to guess, I would guess that many BH's could echo my sentiment (at some point) in this message I gave my WW. Some may opt to check out before this type of conversation happens. Other BH's may say it, it fall on deaf ears and they tire of repeating themselves. The best would be for a WW to step out of her comfort zone and learn to really try to empathize with the man she damaged. But there may be a circumstance/group of BH's for which my words would never apply.

Anyone that experiences anything similar to WWTL ...I just don't know... My man, I read your story and it's so very very awful. Not just because of how it played out but the outright tragedy of the circumstances and how you speak of it after walking away (the love you had for her appears to still be there but appears to be damaged beyond repair). To know that kind of love and have it ripped away for something so temporary and stupid... you've my empathy and it breaks my heart for you.

I read your story and it's so very very awful. Not just because of how it played out but the outright tragedy of the circumstances and how you speak of it after walking away (the love you had for her appears to still be there but appears to be damaged beyond repair). To know that kind of love and have it ripped away for something so temporary and stupid

There is something so...idk, fundamentally impossible? about this. I will see if I can explain, but I lack the energy to explain for too long when I'm not sure it's possible for others to see.

To "know that kind of love" and have it "damaged beyond repair" is only--in my view--true if the WS cannot or will not do the work. Otherwise, a BS can heal and accomplish anything that they want to heal and accomplish. There are no limitations to the work and growth that will get you back to that love again if the BS wants that. It requires an unpacking of one's self and all the road blocks to feeling strong, amazing, solid, capable and completely safe in your own skin. That is why R is always possible if both people really want it.

"To know that love and have it ripped away" implies it was taken and cannot be recovered, but that is not true. It is never true. If you felt that powerful and pure love before then you can feel it again, with the WS or with someone new. Because the ability to love lives within us, that's what cannot be taken from us.

The tragedy is that it happened. The tragedy is never that you have now forever lost. You've only lost if you accept the loss because you do not want more for yourself. If you do want more--great love and great strength--then go forward and find it again. It lives in you, not in someone else. If it's not in you right now, you can rebuild it. If you want to.

The tragedy is that it happened, and for that I am very sorry. For all of us. But we are not tragedies. We are in recovery from a tragedy, limited only by our willingness to work. Our light is what brings us great love; great love does not bring us light. It's just true. And it is, to me, a tragedy when people don't see this.

How is this tragedy any different than a debilitating car accident leaving you profoundly changed? Do you find your strength, change your vision of the future, and let that strength and light carry you toward whatever new dreams and possibilities you see for yourself? Or do you say, "It's all over now. I can't have the life I foresaw. It's ruined"? Your choice. But it's pretty obvious that true happiness is only found in one of those two possible choices.

You/we are only limited by ourselves, never external forces. I think many posters are saying this because it's the truth.

As my very close friend, who dealt with her wonderful H cheating many years ago, said a couple months before her cancer finally took her, "What a shame that everyone thinks they have problems when all I see are their opportunities! No matter what is wrong or what they are facing, they get to have tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that and all the hope that comes with it. The only real problem is when the story ends; everything else can be fixed if you are simply given the time."

Yep.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:28 PM, September 16th (Wednesday)]

Oin..

Come the fuck on really..you are a MH.

Waited is not.

YOU fucked another person.

YOur high stinks

YOU GOT A THRILL WaItd did not..

Peace

Fuck..

Is there not a difference?

I'm a BS.I listen to alot of shit everyday but there comes a fucking time you shut the fuck up!!Period..You look say I can relate ....Who the fuck has a right to say what one person does or doesnt do after afucking affair..

Some of you posters have fucked other people after the fucking fact...stayed married...after the fact....

Waited did not..I did not Thomas did not wLloped.etc...WtF is wrong here...In rec on this forum..Tou can cheat and berate..WTF

If you cheated Mh be nice but quit throwing fucking stones

Crazyinlove1995:

I don't know what post you read, Crazyinlove1995, but what I read was a beautiful post by OIN regarding the healing power of believing in one's own inherent (and unlimited) capacity to love and grow... and being open to what's still possible rather than sidelined by what's been lost.

Excellent post OwningItNow. There is so much truth and hope for BS in what you say. Thank you for sharing.

Crazy in love, not sure what set you off. I can tell you are in pain. We learn more from those we disagree with than those we agree.

All opinions should be welcome and all posters need to be valued.

Crazyinlove, wtf was that? I’m a big boy, and don’t need anyone to fight my battles. Or in this case where no battles needed to be fought. The whole purpose of this place is for people to rationally discuss the issues surrounding infidelity

I get exactly what OIN was saying, and appreciate her thoughts and how she presented. I’m not sure I agree on how simple she made it sound, but her thoughts were again coming from a good place.

Posts like yours have no place here