SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

^^^ what he said.

I would file. Filing does not mean divorce, but the fact that she isn't giving you the passwords means she hasn't committed to honesty, and there is no reconciliation without honesty.

that's exactly how I feel and exactly what I'd do. There's no Mexican standoff unless you let it.

When I went to the lawyer it was with the intention of getting the ball rolling for divorce. When I first called attorney he told me to, yea, come on in and we will get it started. What I found out is that there might not be an end to it.

As for the Mexican stand-off, there are things I need from her, things I need to know. I also realize, from you guys and from attorneys that I have definitely got to chill before I go into a court room.

One thing WW always admired and respected about me was my integrity, loyalty, honesty and self-respect. I would never be able to give that again. During the course of her affair, her love and care for me never changed. The sex remained amazing, and we remained connected. There is no doubt in my mind that during the time of her affair that she still loved me. I think she loves me now, but this can't be fixed.

She is constantly texting, calling and sending emails. I do not take pleasure in her pain as I did at the beginning of this process, however, I am not the person who can forgive and forget. I am probably not the person who can forgive.

Would it cause problems for me if I posted on here the email I just received from her? I do not know if it is even allowed on this site. In the email I just received, she is still thinking that there is something she can do. She keeps wanting to fix this.

There is nothing to be fixed; she fixed that. I don't feel like talking, I feel no compulsion to interact with her. I simply ask her to Let me be, let me sit silently and contemplate.

You can post her mail. Instead of John and Mary put in Pete and Abby.

During the course of her affair, her love and care for me never changed. The sex remained amazing, and we remained connected. There is no doubt in my mind that during the time of her affair that she still loved me.

This is because of compartmentalization. She is one of those people that can compartmentalize their lives and stories into separate boxes.

You and marriage in this box, and the affair(s) in these boxes. And the two shall never meet.

Usually people that are able to live this way learned how to lie and compartmentalize at a very early age, and many times to do something in their childhood. Something they suppressed.

This does mean her affair had nothing to do with you and everything to do with her.

Please consider that you might want to change exact wording in the email to your own wording, or to paraphrase what she said.

While you're allowed to do it, search engines like Google and Yahoo do index this site. So, if she said the phrase:

"I want for us to go to Lake WassaTheName and ride the boats and dance again"

and then googled for that later she'd have a hit on this site, under your posting name.

And then your safe place would be open to her lawyers. Hell, they might even suggest it to her.

Because once your strategy and feelings are known then you can be manipulated.

Paranoid? Maybe. Possible? Yes. Easy to avoid? Yes.

Make some changes in the text, or better yet just post the sense of what she has said.

Something like:

"she wants to come back and work on us. She said she'd give me passwords if I let her move back in on Monday. She said she never loved OM, but that it was just a stupid fling she doesn't know why she did."

Still google-able, but much more generic.

Not all MC's are the same. Some will tell the WS not to give passwords..they will tell the BS not to ask any questions..that each spouse is entitled to privacy(and secrecy)..and that asking questions prolongs healing. Many will tell you to leave the past in the past.

So...if she is wanting to wait until you see an MC before she gives you the passwords...just know that the MC might back her up.

It is very, very important for a BS to talk with an MC before that first meeting. If you get an MC that's a rugsweeper, then your WS will never give you what you need. And they will use the "experts" advice to back up their nonsense.

I rarely post on this forum because the pain is so fresh and I fear I might say something that could in some way make it worse. I am SOOOO sorry you are here, but glad you are getting support.

If you would permit me, I would like to point out a few things that have stuck with me as I have read this thread.

1) I disagree that anger is a good thing. In fact, I think most anger doesn't really exist - it is really something else - fear, resentment, hurt, pain, etc. I think it is important for all of us to try to put our finger on exactly what is under that anger and deal with that. This is why the suggestion of an IC is so helpful.

2) while I absolutely respect the right to post it, I STRONGLY disagree with the suggestion to "lie, lie, lie". In other words, do exactly to her what she is doing to you. I am trying to figure out in what world that would enhance whatever (if any) chance for reconciliation there might be, or conversely, how it would be helpful in getting through a divorce --- much less how it could be helpful in regaining self respect.

3) as a BS, I understand (as much as we can all understand each other's specific situations) the devastation of betrayal. Like you, and probably many others here, I knew this was something that could never touch US and that my FWS was simply not capable of betrayal. Surprise! And just like I knew we had a soulmate marriage, I KNEW many other things that continued to change. I hear you saying that you KNOW you could never feel this or that or do this or that. You also KNEW your wife and marriage were perfect. You were wrong. I am concerned with your hurry to move through this process. Your pain is so deep and so fresh. It is literally impossible to know what feeling waits for you around the corner.

4) This...

When all of this is sorted out, they will know the truth because I cannot have them thinking that as soon as they were old enough to leave the house, their dad turned into a dirty old man, grew a wild hair and left their mother. That will not happen.

Very gently, because I have been in the same ball park as you are in now - this sounds a lot like being in a good light about all of this with your kids is more important to you than their feelings. If they felt a little less respectful of you but were not nearly as traumatized, would that be a trade off you are willing to make?

Again, I am so very sorry for your loss, your pain. I wish you strength and wisdom as you grieve.

DOneGone

Lawyers suck. But they are a necessary evil.

Why haven't you hired a Pro to crack the laptop and cell phone already?

Until then you cannot end your own standoff.

She has stated unequivocally that she will do anything and everything I need her to do.

You have said she has told you this repeatedly.

I hope you keep responding with the "No you have not. Send me your passwords...."

In fact you can probably set your email to automatically respond to her emails with that message.

Sooner or later she will get it.

Stay tough.

HM

Thanks for the replies. You may find it hard to believe but I use to be bubbly, outgoing, really funny, and warm. Now, I am intensely serious, dark and angry. This is my new reality. I do want to get some semblance of my old life back but do not see me ever losing this extreme angst. Probably, the best I can hope for is to somehow maintain these two personas (which I will probably have to do for the rest of my life).

LongWalk

You can post her mail. Instead of John and Mary put in Pete and Abby

I guess my question was addressing the legality of it. My attorneys let me know there could be hell to pay if I did not return her lap top and mobil. They also discussed me reading her private information as 'hacking' and 'invasion of privacy.' I don't know if the moderators will allow me to post her emails here, or, if I might even end up in hot water some other way.

This might sound like an idiot question but I have learned, after speaking to two attorneys that being honest and using common sense can land me in a world of hurt.

craig2001

This is because of compartmentalization. She is one of those people that can compartmentalize their lives and stories into separate boxes.

Yea, I was compartmentalized! She always said she loved me with ALL her "heart, mind, body soul and strength," "All" being the key word here. I had the full run of her heart, mind, body and soul. All of it. I had it ALL. Then she decided that she wanted ass from the past, and just like that, she had me compartmentalized. Once I was in that compartment she was not bothered with nagging thoughts or feelings of guilt and shame. That really fucks with my brain and I am bound and determined to discover, number one, "Why I was compartmentalized," and number two, "Exactly what happened in the other compartments."

devotedman

Make some changes in the text, or better yet just post the sense of what she has said.

Actually, I was wanting to copy and paste her email. My purpose in doing so was to answer questions as to why I seem to be stalling or dragging my feet in this. Really, I am not. This is a horrible process and I have moments of clarity and then moments of confusion.

Sometimes, after reading one of her emails, I have an attack of Temporary Happiness and for a few moments I am unfuckedup. Unfortunately, or perhaps, fortunately, this soon wears off and I am soon fucked up again. I have debated posting one or two or her emails to see what your take is.

confused615

It is very, very important for a BS to talk with an MC before that first meeting. If you get an MC that's a rugsweeper, then your WS will never give you what you need. And they will use the "experts" advice to back up their nonsense.

WW swears she wants to give me passwords, in fact, give me everything I need. She knows I am contemplating divorce. She does not know I have consulted with attorneys and, in fact, have another appointment for next week. She is simply stating that, in my present state, if I have access to her computer and texts, I will definitely leave her, no doubt.

WhatsRight

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. They are appreciated. I am truly sorry for what you have gone (are going) through. I can honestly say, I understand.

I disagree that anger is a good thing.

For me, anger is a good thing. I am now in the place where I can "be angry and sin not." In the beginning of this nightmare, I admit that my anger was inappropriately expressed. I was charged over $1600 damages to motel room where I was staying plus another $1200 loss of rent fees. I almost ended up in jail after an "intense conversation" with OM. When I got home I went nuclear shock and awe, kicked

WW out of house, almost violently, and then went dark.

You also KNEW your wife and marriage were perfect. You were wrong. I am concerned with your hurry to move through this process. Your pain is so deep and so fresh. It is literally impossible to know what feeling waits for you around the corner.

I was in a hurry. I am somewhat more deliberate now, however, this is only because I want to know exactly what happened to my wife and my life.

Very gently, because I have been in the same ball park as you are in now - this sounds a lot like being in a good light about all of this with your kids is more important to you than their feelings. If they felt a little less respectful of you but were not nearly as traumatized , would that be a trade off you are willing to make?

I think they will be much more respectful of me if they know the truth. I had a meeting with wife and daughters on Saturday night, at daughters request. I behaved, however, once all the facts are out, I will make sure they know exactly what happened. I told wife after meeting that she should have an honest discussion with the girls before I do.

happyman64

Why haven't you hired a Pro to crack the laptop and cell phone already?

My attorneys had some chilling things to say about that. The first wanted nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that, and then he quit me. Both said I absolutely had to return her computer and cell to her. Maybe it's the state in which I live. I dunno

[This message edited by DoneGone at 6:34 PM, April 20th (Monday)]

Where do you stand now?

Wife still say there was never sex, only saw in person twice, that you only know what you've found out on your own, that she has not given you any information that you haven't already known, same stuff like that from your early posts?

Are you living in an apartment and wife in the house? No affection, no sex? She talks to you every day?

Have you already decided to divorce her, no matter what comes out, given that the "secret files" will be much worse than you already know?

It is well established that adultery is

not protected by privacy law

Several federal district courts have concluded that adultery is not protected by

the right to privacy.

Oliverson v. West Valley City,

875 F.Supp. 1465, 1480 (D.Utah

1995)(“Extramarital sexual relationships are not within the penumbra of the various constitutional provisions or the articulated privacy interests protected by the Constitution”);

Suddarth v. Slane,

539 F.Supp. 612, 617 (W.D.Va. 1982)(holding that federal privacy rights do not include protection for adultery);

Johnson v. San Jacinto Junior College,

498 F.Supp.

555 (S.D.Tex. 1980)(stating that right to privacy does not protect adulterous conduct).

City of Sherman v. Henry,

928 S.W.2d 464, 471 (Tex. 1996).

Marcum v. Catron,

70 F.Supp.2d 728 (E.D.Ky. 1999),

aff’d sub nom. Marcum v. McWhorter,

308 F.3d 635, 642-643 (6thCir. 2002) (deputy sheriff fired because of adultery);

Cawood v. Haggard,

327 F.Supp.2d 863, 877-879 (E.D.Tenn. 2004) (Attorney’s adulterous relationship with his client was not “within a right of privacy that is constitutionally protected from government intrusion”.);

United States v. Orellana,

62 M.J. 595, 598 (N.M.Ct.Crim.App. 2005)

(adultery not constitutionally protected conduct under Lawrence where criminal offense has “purpose is to maintain good order and discipline within the service, while secondarily fostering

the fundamental social institution of marriage.”),

rev. denied, 63 M.J. 295 (C.A.A.F. 2006).

And above all else, there is no Criminal case law against spouses, not estranged, searching through the common computer files, emails or phone records paid for by the household joint monies. If you file Joined Taxes, the it is joint property.

privacy of computer files (e.g., e-mail)

An unmarried adult who is the sole user of one computer owned by that adult generally has a reasonable expectation of privacy in e-mail or other forms of communication by computer.

The federal wiretap act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521 (amended by Electronic Communications

Privacy Act), only applies to communications that are in transit, not past communications that are stored on a computer. e.g.,

Steve Jackson Games, Inc. v. U.S. Secret Service,

36 F.3d 457, 460-463 (5thCir. 1994).

Stored Communications Act (SCA) 18 U.S.C. § 2701 et. seq. protects e-mail messages that

are stored by a service provider, such as Yahoo, Hotmail, Gmail, or a local Internet Service

Provider. The SCA does not protect messages that are stored on a user’s computer, such as in a home.

Theofel v. Farey-Jones,

359 F.3d 1066, 1072-73, 1075 (9thCir. 2004);

Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network, Inc. v. Gaubatz, 793 F.Supp.2d 311, 337 (D.D.C. 2011) (“It is entirely non-controversial that ‘e-mail messages downloaded and stored on, and subsequently accessed solely from, a user's personal computer do not fall within the SCA's

definition of electronic storage.’

Bailey v. Bailey,

2008 WL 324156, at *6 (E.D.Mich. Feb. 6, 2008).”).

Hazard (Tenn.App. 1991)

During a divorce proceeding, Wife found a letter from Husband to his attorney on a computer in

the marital residence. The appellate court tersely said: The letter in question was stored in the Husband's computer located in the marital home, to which Wife had complete access when she retrieved the letter from the computer. In

Smith County Educ. Ass'n v. Anderson,

676 S.W.2d 328 (Tenn. 1984), the Court said:

The attorney-client evidentiary privilege only extends to communications from the

client to the attorney. D. Paine, TENNESSEE

LAW OF EVIDENCE , § 96, p. 111–112

(1974), and confidentiality is destroyed when Those communications take place in the presence of a third party.

Hazlett v. Bryant,

192 Tenn. 251, 257, 241 S.W.2d

121, 123 (1951). The privilege is designed to protect the client and because it belongs to the client, may be waived by him....

Smith County v. Anderson, 676 S.W.2d at 333.

Husband voluntarily placed this communication in the computer to which Wife had access. This effectively allowed the contents of the letter to be communicated to Wife the same as if Wife had overheard a conversation of Husband with his attorney or had received a copy of a letter from Husband to his attorney. There is not a situation concerning testimony from the attorney to whom the letter was addressed and the communication as introduced was not privileged.

I don't want to threadjack, but I do have to respond to the post above. The cases cited refer to a person's right of privacy against the government. I would note most are old in his first post.

In his second post he cites cases where the spouse had no expectation of privacy. Case law concludes this is NOT the case where the device is shared and not protected. If the device is password protected there is an expectation of privacy.

donegone is not the government. The cell phone of his wife's is his wife's personal property. Both federal and state law makes it illegal to "hack" into the electronic records of your spouse if there is a password on the device.

Trust the advice the lawyer has given you.

Yes, I am a lawyer. This post was updated after a second post including case law was posted.

[This message edited by redsox13 at 7:32 PM, April 20th (Monday)]

Not trying to give you legal advice, But I have made numerous searches of state and federal cases in the Westlaw database for many different queries to find alleged privacy violations in divorce proceedings, use of keystroke loggers in divorce litigation, searches of trash for evidence to use in divorce litigation, etc. I have found remarkably few cases. I suggest that divorce litigation is more expensive than most people can afford, and litigating additional claims for alleged privacy violations preceding or during divorce would add even more legal fees, so the privacy violations routinely continue without any case law to cite to discourage these violations. Furthermore, damage awards for privacy violations tend to be small, so plaintiff’s legal fees can be larger than the damage award, making it a Pyrrhic victory.

DoneGone

It looks like you are getting some free legal counsel here. I'm just a "C" student so I won't comment on that aspect .

Even though you do not have access yet to what is on the computer and cell, your wife's actions have told you exactly what is on there. You know she wants a protector there if she gives you access in MC because she knows what is on there is so damaging that there is no chance you will stay . And if you are not careful she will parade you in front of some idiot who will tell you not to look at the computer and then she will change her mind .

Unless she is totally insane, there is no way she could be doing this unless she has had sex and a lot of it with thisnOM or multiple OM. If that is a deal breaker for you you really do not need any more.

My advice to you would be to get the divorce papers prepared, take them to MC with you. If she refuses to turn the passwords over to you right there or if she has deleted anything somehow , or if you find out wha I think you know you will find out , just hand her the papers and leave . You can stop it if you want to at any time. By doing this you will not have to worry about legal ramifications to breaking into the computer and phone.

She knows what it on there is so damaging that her only chance is to hope the therapist will talk you into giving it some time . I don't think her strategy is going to work in reading your thoughts on here . Good luck to you

Good advice.

But if you hire a pro the entire phone and laptop will be backed up with its entire contents without any sign of ever breaking in.

For the price of destroying the hotel room you could have had all the information at your fingertips.

I would want to know.

And I honestly believe that the attorneys felt they were in the presence of a pissed off, raging anger scorned husband.

Not very surprised of the advice they gave you let alone dropping you as a potential client.

And if your wife is so remorseful why did she not tell your daughters the truth about what happened while you were there????

That really fucks with my brain and I am bound and determined to discover, number one, "Why I was compartmentalized," and number two, "Exactly what happened in the other compartments."

You cannot figure out how and why she did this. Most people like your WW learn to compartmentalize early in life. They do it in a defensive posture because they had to.

There is a good chance your wife has some type of childhood issues and until she comes clean on those, it will be very hard to fix.

She is simply stating that, in my present state, if I have access to her computer and texts, I will definitely leave her, no doubt.

If that is true, you will leave her, then she will never give you anything.

So file for a divorce and be done with it. No more prolonging this.

Otherwise, promise her you will not leave her because of the truth. There is no other way you will ever get the truth, unless you hire a decent lawyer, and a PI.

If you need the truth, sue her. In some states there is alienation of affection laws. If not, just expose the damn affair to everyone. And divorce.

If you she does know you will leave her for the truth, you will never get it from her.

If you want to R, then tell her, but you do need the truth. Once you have the truth, there will be a lot of work to do in order to R.

And she needs to be totally open and honest. She needs to explain how she could be so lying to you. And she needs IC.

And you will have to understand the why she did this. Understanding the why, does not make it a valid reason, but understanding helps.

She's still trying to manipulate you.

Do you think you'll ever be ready to say to her that she either gives you the passwords that exact moment or you'll divorce her without looking back? What's stopping you from issuing such an ultimatum?

And yeah, listen to your attorney. If I were you, I wouldn't try to hack into it. I would put it in a safe storage with a receipt, so you wouldn't be accused of trying to tamper with it all the time. You could simply say you were storing it so she wouldn't delete evidence, but that you weren't trying to access it.

Best wishes

No soliciting.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:38 PM, April 28th (Tuesday)]

I absolutely get the desire to see what is on that laptop and phone.

The games/manipulation she is attempting with regard to them are pathetic.

I personally don't see a lot of real risk in getting a professional to 'crack' them, but that is your call.

My thought though is more in line with Hobbes and others:

There is absolutely NO doubt in any logical mind that there is proof of cheating on them. You can proceed KNOWING this is true. You don't know the details, but you know she cheated.

I say this with such certainty because she has done everything but outright tell you this herself. When a person refuses, against all begging, pleading, demanding - as she has done - because 'if you see it you will leave me' - she has answered the question.

She is literally willing to risk your marriage against giving you transparency.

She is doing this because she sees it as her ONLY play. Passwords means transparency means divorce in her mind. Why would she be willing to risk everything unless that transparency exposed CLEAR evidence of cheating? If it merely 'looked bad' or 'you won't understand' - well she could explain it. She is trying to stare you down on this issue because she KNOWS what is on those devices is unequivocal. Therefore her only play is to try and force you to give them back so she can 'sanitize' them first.

I sincerely believe you should follow Hobbes advice and issue the ultimatum and follow through if she refuses. She has made it clear she cheated, and is willing to do ANYTHING to protect her secrets. Do you really wish to remain married under these circumstances, to this person?