SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

very good analysis by Marbou

2. If real evidence of sex between WW and OM is found, smash the phone and laptop with a hammer or sledge hammer, just return the destroyed phone and laptop to her...

???

She knows he's trying to break into it. Just give it back. Don't destroy her property.

But really, DoneGone knows he's being lied to and deceived and jerked around, he is just trying to find out the specifics. The specifics aren't going to change the overarching issue of lying and deception, and therefore aren't going to answer any of the real questions he's asking.

DoneGone,

I believe you should give her back her mobile and laptop, avoid any conflict with her as you already decided to D.

She is not committed to show you what she has done; she only has admitted what you can prove. I am sorry to say this but cheaters lies… maybe for self-preservation, maybe to continue her doings, trying to protect you, etc. but she is lying!

I wonder what she is trying to hide that prefers D that comes clean.

IMO you should spare yourself more suffering and drama and just assume the worst, as in your mind I believe you already have.

Regarding what you want/need to know consider these:

On her phone you would find so much Texts, some about feelings, some really heavy sexting, the places and times they meet and the worse kind (and this is why I believe she doesn’t want you to see them) badmouthing you or/and making fun of you with OM and friends. You can always look at the operator to find when they really started to be in contact by phone.

On her laptop you would find that she has sent to him and in worse scenery movies with her or both of them at your house, his house, friend’s house, etc.

Information you will never going to get are email communications, skype contact and video sexting, etc. Her email has been already totally cleaned, so from that source you are not gone get nothing, she already acceded to it from another computer next day you took at her laptop. And on skype you will never know what they talk or did.

What they talk about on phone, you may know how many times, even how long each time but not what they said.

IMO if you want to try R and need to know but she refuses there are 3 things you can do:

Ask her to take a poly. This way you will know if they had a PA, and also you my get a parking lot confession outside the poly test office. If one is not enough maybe take 2, this is totally up to you.

Reach OM to talk, if he is married you can ask him about the affair, ask him for the emails and phone texts and pics. The trick here is making him do it. Contact him by text or email and then tell him that you need him to come clean about everything and then you will give him a chance to come clean to his wife by his own, otherwise you are going to tell her and much more people (at his job, to his parents, siblings, church) what he has done. I believe she already contacted him to match stories so tell him you wife already allowed you to recover text from her phone and emails so he better come clean. This way you can see if they are still in touch by her reaction the next hours.

Agree to a third party (if your wife is OK with it) to read through the emails and text to confirm important information you want to know. In another web someone used this method.

Notice that what you see can't never be unseen!

Good luck

[This message edited by Mrhealed at 8:26 AM, April 17th (Friday)]

DG, just a couple of random thoughts.

She's a SAHM with no funds. How in the world could the computer and phone NOT be considered joint assets since YOU paid for them?

Next, why would you even consider staying with a woman who thinks it is more important to hide *inappropriate conversations* with the OM rather than being honest with her husband?

As I said, random.

Strength

I agree 5454, they would be joint.

That's why I would check with another attorney, one who is a bit more compassionate to you. I still wouldn't give the stuff back. I highly doubt she's sophisticated enough to get a court order to get it.

Some do make a decent argument over whether it really matters again or not. To me, the truth and extent of the truth always matters. Assuming R is out the door, move to D asap. If R is on the table, you have to know what happened

DoneGone,

My wife carried on an EA for months. She gaslighted and blameshifted me for months as she texted, facetimed, called, and met (on occasion).

She was able to do this because 1) I loved her and my family more than my pride and myself, 2) I had no evidence that she was having an affair.

Then, I figured out her password (by seeing from afar) and downloaded the contents of her iphone. I cracked into it and got several thousand texts.

Once I told her I had the text messages, I was able to stop the affair. Until then, I was without power--it was either continue the affair or divorce. Once I had knowledge, I gained power. Until you know what happened, she will always have the upper hand.

If you want to save your marriage, as I did and do, you need the knowledge. My wife wants to stay married. I want to stay married. She was addicted to the OM's attention. Only the truth could break the stalemate. Once I had that, then the WW could start to feel shame. She told me after I had her texts, "OK. I'm glad you found out. I couldn't have told you myself, but now I'm glad you have them."

No, I'm not saying she didn't break NC after that, but that having the texts was the beginning of the end of the affair. The light of truth was able to slowly shake her out of the fog.

I like Marbou's strategy. Go get the best forensic IT guy you can find. Break it and get the information.

I like the pretending to not know. That gives you more leverage and options.

If you like being married to her, repair your marriage, go to IC and MC, get the OM as a distant memory. When your settling back into a comfortable life, you can then tell her you know what you know. Then she can rage at you or break down and cry, but she will be out of the fog at that point and more rational.

Day by day my WW becomes more rational. I see it and feel it and her actions say so. I do want to be married and I do want her to be truthful and trustworthy. But I also know that she had to have time to come out of the fog on her own schedule. I have set up a polygraph to clean up some lingering questions.

Or you can file for divorce, force the timeline, force her to choose, and see where it goes. That would be a much faster route than mine. But to each his own.

Good luck DG!

Some of you have suggested that smashing her phone and laptop was too extreme and maybe you're right. After thinking about it overnight, here is a modified version of my previous suggestion.

Now that you have spoken to 2 lawyers, you are left with basically one thing to do. Go to an IT specialist (ask a private investigator to get you one) and get the information from the laptop and the cell phone. After you get the information out of these devices, you will need to give her some of her own medicine, that is lie, lie and lie. Here are your options

1. If nothing on the phone or laptop indicates that she did sleep with him, then maybe you are a lucky bastard after all who did stop her in her tracks before anything bad happened. In that case, go see her and tell her you feel bad about taking her phone and laptop and you want to return them. Do as if you never got into the phone or laptop. Tell her you couldn't get the information out. Tell her that in the future, you would appreciate if you two could share instead of being in an adversarial role. That would help mend the fracture in your marriage. BIG HUG and a kiss. Deny you got into her computer, lie,lie lie.

2. If real evidence of sex between WW and OM is found, you have three options.

a) (Since you seem to still love your wife very much, "forgive and remember" might be your choice) You will tell your loving wife that you love her very much and are willing to give her another chance, but if she ever does that again, D is the only course to follow after that. Remember, you did not get into her computer or phone. Lie, Lie, Lie.

b) Say "I couldn't get into your phone or laptop, so here is the deal. You give me the passwords or I will file for divorce. That's my final offer." It would be even nicer if you had the D papers on the table as you look her in the eyes and say "passwords or D? That's what our marriage has come down to." Again deny getting into the phone or laptop. Lie, lie lie.

c) You will just go to a lawyer and file for divorce on the grounds of "irreconcilable differences". Never mention you got into her devices. LIE,LIE,LIE. Don't talk about cheating or even mention the word. Just say you are more than fed up with her attitude and secretive ways. Lie, lie lie.

If you decide to divorce, it seems that your state will split the assets 50:50, so you get to pay for the wife and two daughters still in college. No way out of it. That's the price to pay to get rid of a cheating wife.

A couple of thoughts.

If she is a SAHM, without a verified income, how is the phone not a joint asset? If her phone/laptop was purchased for her by a company she worked for then yes, breaking the passwords is a crime. But if you hold the receipt, then is it technically half yours? And thus you are getting information off a device you own? Something to ask the next lawyer about.

I like option B that marbou888 posted. Playing a game of chicken with your wife, while holding divorce papers behind your back, powerfull. That's her driving an 92 Honda civic, and you are in a suburban. If she does not flinch and sticks to her guns, so be it. It will be interesting to see your kids response when they are told she would rather divorce than give you passwords. " Hold on, what is Mom hiding that is worth ending a marriage over?"

Jcanada

Our courts, and or country have legislated morality and decency out of our lives, families, and marriages. Its an awful, disgusting and impossible to accept truth.

Yea, from attorneys I can paraphrase. The harder I worked during marriage, the more she gets in divorce. I spent an hour or so on the fathers rights web site today. It was very pleasant reading, if you know what I mean. Thanks for the info.

Tren0R201

Take the emotion out of it and start dealing with the facts and start planning accordingly.

Easier said than done, my friend, but I’m trying. I am totally convinced that she loves me, heart and soul. The person I have loved for 26 years is still there and loves me with all her heart. She has stated unequivocally that she will do anything and everything I need her to do. She stated that she would wait forever if she had to; and that she is not giving up on this marriage. Although I have deep compassion for her, she is not the victim here. There is no doubt that WW feels horrible for what she did. You cannot fake what she has been going through. At times I have a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for her. She is torn to pieces and I do have a strong desire to comfort her and alleviate her suffering; but I think that would hurt me more than help her. She is still the person I love and the only woman I have ever loved, but now, for the first time in our relationship, I feel love and compassion for her, without acting on it. For over two decades it was a core aspect of my relationship with her. She says she is lost, and hopeless and hurting too. My behavior and care for her has always been altruistic in nature. She says she is lost without that and cannot bear to think she would not have that again sometime in the future.

To be honest, I don't express much emotion these days- not anger and not enthusiasm. I don't smile unless I think to do so, and then it’s fake (and she knows it). I don't spontaneously speak or start conversations or share much of anything with WW. How do you even chat or do small talk with such an elephant in the room? WW is most concerned that I do not react or respond to her, one way or the other. I assure her that it is best that way. There is nothing to say, or better said, what I've got to say, she does not want to hear.

She feels horrible that she has done this to me. I tell her I am not her concern anymore. She is heart broken that she has done this to us. I tell her there is no more us, unless she is referring to me, her and OM. I tell her to stop worrying about me. Just worry about what you have done to yourself.

Oh, she will gladly take what’s coming to her and then some. According to her, she deserves the horrible guilt and pain, but what hurts her the most is what she has done to me. How noble. How fucking noble or her.

Western

I do feel it would be beneficial to get another consultation and to get an attorney who he feels will be more passionate in representing him.

I think I started off on the wrong foot with both attorneys. I think I burned my bridges, but I was so disappointed. I thought I was going to get some answers. I guess I was combative and argumentative. I could not believe they were telling me the truth. It was like I was paying them to represent my wife. I thought the hard part was making the decision and contacting an attorney; I was not prepared for reality, even though I have read it on here many times.

Nononsense

If you break into the computer and phone , and I hope you get to do that , you are not going to be any closer to knowing why.

That would probably taken a lot of therapy.

Maybe you’re right, but I’ve been thinking the opposite. Once having the information from her computer, I will know for a fact, what a deceptive, lying, manipulative bitch she really, really is and walking away will be all the therapy I need. Probably not.

TheDarkestTime

So who brought the kids into the equation? Was it you or her?

My wife brought the kids into the equation. All they know is that their uncle’s friend (OM) sent WW some crazy texts and, WW, not wanting to be rude, responded. They do not know that it went on for at least six months; that there were some pictures exchanged and that she planned rendezvous in motel. I will not say anything to them until it is necessary. WW wants me to please not burden them with my “wild speculation and useless conjecture.” When all of this is sorted out, they will know the truth because I cannot have them thinking that as soon as they were old enough to leave the house, their dad turned into a dirty old man, grew a wild hair and left their mother. That will not happen.

mike7

I don't know if this is the right thing, but if it were me, I'd tell her I either get the passwords or we divorce

The problem is, she KNOWS if she gives me the passwords we will divorce. We have a little Mexican stand-off going on here. I am not threatening divorce because I want to buy time to gather information and common sense. She is not giving me passwords because she wants to buy time for me to cool down and be rational. So, here we are, both just buying time.

She will give me the passwords if I go to marriage counseling with her a few times, first. Her reasoning for not giving up the passwords now is that; if I would leave her for a planned motel sex rendezvous that never happened, then, everything in her texts and emails, though benign and fantasy would just seal the fate of our marriage. I have not badgered her too strongly for passwords. My intent has been to stay aloof in feelings and in interest. I have never believed I needed her to get the passwords, still don’t, however, those attorneys put the fear of God in me.

marbou888

I agree with Western, very good analysis. Sad to say, that is not me. Sometimes I wish it were, and other times, I’m glad it’s not. Much of my anger has been centered around the fact that she has committed the unpardonable sin. My grieving process has been truly horrendous. I am surviving but certainly not thriving. I have only made it to this point in time, not because I am tenacious and strong; but only because I have continued to breath.

To be honest, it is quite painful posting here, but doing so, has a therapeutic effect. I feel much better once I have gotten it all out. I am reading and paying attention to what you guys are saying. Probably doesn’t seem that way to you. So much crap going on right now. I just gotta calm down and take it one day at a time. It turns out I don't have the Othello Syndrome, but there's a good possibility I have residual heart damage, which could very well be the after effects of the lying and cheating that were prescribed to me by my soul mate. I'm angry, but dealing with it.

She will give me the passwords if I go to marriage counseling with her a few times, first

My WW wanted to go before we talked also. Turns out she had an affair and wanted the counseling to limit my reaction. You are being played. Sorry dude

The problem is, she KNOWS if she gives me the passwords we will divorce.

One of the most important things a betrayed husband has to make sure their wife understands, is that it is safe to be totally honest.

And that means that you do not threaten divorce, anger or anything like that that is unsafe for them to be totally honest.

It sounds like you have screwed that up, but that is common and I did that also.

Now, explain to her that she is safe to be honest with you now. No more delays. She should write out all of the truths. Or you can write out your questions and she answers them with total honesty and you promise her that her honesty will not result in divorce.

You sound like you want to R, so show it. And drop the anger issues!

In order to get the entire truth, you have to make it safe for her to give you the entire truth.

After this, she can no longer use the excuse of, if she tells you then you will divorce her. Because after time, you will divorce her for the lying alone. Lying is far worse than the affair. The wondering about the real truth is far worse than the actual affair.

She needs to understand this.

No, you do not go to MC a few times first, she does not dictate terms. One time at a MC, she answers all of your questions.

The longer she makes you wait for the entire truth, the madder you will get.

Once again, drop your anger problems. We were all angry. But it is how you handle the anger. Otherwise, she will not answer your questions and the cops could get involved, which really screws things up.

Ok. Look. You have decided she fucked another guy. You see her as a lying manipulative bitch. Your words. If you are going to divorce her, then get rambling rambler. Stop threatening and do it. If not, then start mc and and start healing.

What's the point of prolonging the pain? I get your anger, but let go of the outcome. You can be angry with the legal system forever but it is not going to change anything. Do what you want but stop railing against the gods. It will do nothing but feed your pain.

I'm a guy.i want to control everything. I can't. Get this in your head. Deal with reality not what is fair or what you want. Go for it. Stop looking for a lawyer that tells you what you want to hear. Look for a guy who will fight for your rights within the law.

If confirmation that the affair was physical is a deal breaker then why do you expect her to willingly give you the key to the lock that will prove to you that it was physical?

That’s like an executioner asking the prisoner for a bullet.

She has a choice: minimize and maybe get divorced or tell the truth and get divorced. That’s pretty bad options.

IF this being a PA is your dealbreaker then stop beating round the bushes and file.

IF knowing the truth and the total extent of the affair is what you need to define your real dealbreaker… well… then as I and other have repeatedly suggested: Create an environment where she feels telling the truth is better than maintaining a lie.

yeah... i don't really understand this mexican standoff stuff. If you already know you're going to divorce, then file and be done with it. If you don't know because you need more information, then tell her that. then tell her that if she doesn't give the information, you're going to file anyway. there is no way i would be in a mexican standoff with my wife. her not telling is the same as the worst I can imagine. i'd be done. i'm also not thrilled with the way your wife is talking about your "wild speculation and useless conjecture" but then she's not willing to prove that it's actually wild speculation and conjecture. pretty disingenuous.

Honestly, I wouldn't put up with the stonewalling. I'd tell her that I guess it means she'd rather divorce than tell me the truth. I would find the stonewalling infuriating.

that being said, I'm not sure I would divorce if there hadn't actually been a PA. but that's just me. It sounds to me like you're saying that you would divorce her whether there was a PA or not. If that's the case, then I'd recommend you get on with it. no point in waiting for some sort of dramatic crescendo.

Man you have served a real Shit sandwich She made you think you had a mental condition to cover her own ass. Wow. That is beyond F**ked up. A whole different level of gaslighting. PA or not, can you envision a life with someone who could do that?

And to make that comment about YOU upsetting the kids!

If you want to continue the stand off, go to the MC and fake nice to get the passwords, or hack the computer, fine. But once you have all the info you need....ask yourself, "what kind of marriage and life will I have going forward if I stay with her?"

You said you believe she still loves you. You are probably right. Maybe she just loves herself more. Maybe she is putting on the performance of a lifetime to maintain her standard of living. Or maybe she is truly sickened by what she has done. Only you can judge that. But does any of that impact your decision to file?

Take care of yourself. I hope you find some peace in the coming days.

DG,

If going a cohele of tunes ti MC will get you the passwords and truth, why dont you go?

Make a de al with her. Go to MC 2 times, full disclousure on tird time, under these conditions:

Go to MC does not mean R, no promises, no guarantees, make clear to her that you are not calling off the D just for attending to MC but will listen what MC has to say.

You will do as MC says, answer questions, talk about feeling, get some IC, etc. but you are not doing things that makes you feel un confortable (kissing, sex, hugs) and not going to more thant 3 MCs (incluging the come clean one) if you are not feeling like.

No deleting anything, check by a it guy

Acces to all the emails, text, pics, etc. All of them.

Coming clean about phone calls, Skipe, etc. About what they said yo eachothers and did (cysex, webcam masturbation, etc).

This is just muy opinión but I believe is the only way to get to know as much as possible about the affair without involving OM.

Good luck

This is total bullshit.

One of the most important things a betrayed husband has to make sure their wife understands, is that it is safe to be totally honest.

And that means that you do not threaten divorce, anger or anything like that that is unsafe for them to be totally honest.

It sounds like you have screwed that up, but that is common and I did that also.

Dont promise her a damn thing. You are a man. You are her husband. Demand the truth from her NOW. Not after some third party has had a chance to spin this. This horse shit about going to a marriage counselor to get the truth from her is a sham. So is the notion of not being angry to "make her feel safe". To hell with that. You make her feel safe I guarantee she will not "open up". That is a crock of shit like I said.

Your wife needs to know that you are willing to end it all. Period.

Craig2001, I am not calling you out, I am only speaking of my own experience. I tried this path of negotiation at this stage and it basically sucked. It didnt work. I needed to be more firm and decisive to get where I needed to be. Maybe it worked for you. But making my wife feel safe in the first several months got me a few more DDAYs.

Dont tell a guy that (in your words) "screwed that up" by being angry about his cheating wife.

[This message edited by TheDarkestTime at 2:52 AM, April 18th (Saturday)]

There is only a Mexican stand off as long as you tolerate it. You can probably crack the computer and phone if you work at it. There are threads with great detail.

I would not wait. Book MC. Tell your wife that counseling can start with discussion about reconciliation or the Mexican stand off. Tell her she'll feel better once she gives you the passwords. She can even confess as a preface to handing them over.

On lawyers, from a lawyer:

You are not the first client to walk into a lawyer's office and be shocked at what is said. If the lawyer has any experience at all they expect it. In a lot of states the affair is damn near irrelevant - there are reasons for that - which aren't relevant here - but I get that your wife has an affair and you have to pay her is a result that sucks.

I seriously doubt you have burned bridges with either one of them. I know several whose first advice is always the same - if you can find a way to reconcile do.

I would file. Filing does not mean divorce, but the fact that she isn't giving you the passwords means she hasn't committed to honesty, and there is no reconciliation without honesty.

Good luck

Your wife seems disturbingly manipulative. She manipulated you into believing you had psychiatric condition, she manipulated your daughters in order to further manipulate you, she is probably manipulating her therapist. It looks like her M.O. to me, and at the level you are describing, it is probably an ingrained behavior and something you need to be alert for going forward.