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Catch44,

Are you saying your wife had sex with other men because you demanded sex from her? Think about how ridiculous that statement is. If it is true, then she's insane. And if it is not true--then she's just another cheater blaming the victim.

You come across as so desperate to save the marriage you will take the blame for her actions. You can't. Nothing is a bigger turn-off than a needy man. And if you take the blame for her bad acts, she won't respect you.

You can tell her what your boundaries are, and that you expect her to meet them. You can ask her what things in the marriage made her unhappy, seek to understand them, apologize for them, and make affirmative steps to address her needs and concerns. But you have to do so with an attitude that shows you want to repair the marriage but have the strength to leave it too.

Catch,

You really need to define what you want in your M. We've taken 'sex on demand' without really finding out what it means to you.

The agreement between my W and me was, as of d-day, that she could say 'no' if she wanted to, but if she was on the fence between 'yes' and 'no', she had to choose 'yes'. Either of us could stop, though, if we decided we wanted to. Strangely, I stopped several times over the 1st 2 years, but my W didn't.

One of my requirements was that she initiate sex sometimes.

Perhaps that can help you define what you want. No matter what, though, you need to identify your wants, your boundaries, and your requirements for R.

Your old M is dead. You can rebuild it if you and your W want to and if you both do the necessary work. But if your W is not willing to do the work, or if you desires are too far apart, it's probably best to split.

How does "I have to beg for sex" make a husband feel? Because, and I'm sure there's a lot of head shaking going on right now, that's the reality in almost every marriage I know of well enough to have the conversations with the husbands.

Hmmm ... I don't see why any H accepts this. Sex is a major part of M, and if the 2 partners can't negotiate something that works for each of them, perhaps the M should be ended.

Several years ago I came across a then current book about an M between 1 partner with a normal sex drive and 1 with an extremely low sex drive. The book documented how they worked it out. Unfortunately, I can't find any reference to that book now.

Their wives hold all the power....

Very gently, I think Ws have all the power primarily - only? - because the men have given it to them or have otherwise chosen to ignore their own power.

"If you don't want it but do it, it's rape"

I think that's a misrepresentation of the position. I think it's more accurate to say, 'If one partner doesn't want sex, and the other partner gets acquiescence to sex by force, by threat of force, by emotional abuse, or by drugs (including liquor), it's rape.'

I personally would include emotional manipulation (lies, for example) as rape, but that's probably a little extreme for some people.

... [M]any a BW has commented here on SI about how she used her WH for sex after dday, worried about only her own sexual satisfaction, took advantage of hysterical bonding, and didn't worry about her H at all. Many women have said they felt sexually selfish and had no problem with that after learning of the A. I would say that I have read things like that enough to call it normal?

Me, too, and I'm not a BW. For a long time after d-day, and for the first time in my life, I did not concern myself much with my W's enjoyment. Her orgasm was her responsibility alone. Mine was mine.

I never forced her, though.

She did say that we couldn't spend 2-3 hours every day on sex. Now, however, I'd say she has rethought that. (We're retired, so we have a lot of time to do what we want.... )

The idea that women have less sexual desire than men do hasn't been proven. My own experience and my reading on SI tell me it simply isn't true. (Thanks to ... well, I won't name names....)

[This message edited by sisoon at 6:17 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

Thanks Notthevictem and SisterMilkshake,

I am trying to weigh the past with the present as well, to see if it looks like she is doing what she should.

I know she is following the recommendations of the IC, but I don't know if I want to be part of that process. I think it puts too much of the weight on me.

I think that's a misrepresentation of the position. I think it's more accurate to say, 'If one partner doesn't want sex, and the other partner gets acquiescence to sex by force, by threat of force, by emotional abuse, or by drugs (including liquor), it's rape.'

I personally would include emotional manipulation (lies, for example) as rape, but that's probably a little extreme for some people.

Force, yes. Drugs, yes.

Emotional abuse? Absolutely not. Rape is a crime of violence, not a crime of "he doesn't love me if I don't do XYZ". He actually might not love you if you don't do it, would telling you the truth somehow construe rape?

And the last one. Wow. You realize that would put everyone in jail for rape who lied about loving their partner before sex. So, basically, every man in the world, using this definition, is a rapist. I didn't realize I was lying when I said "I love you", but I was. And then later, I did realize I was lying, but needed to say those words to have sex. I suppose I'm a serial rapist.

Good news is, so's every other guy I've ever met. We all lie to have sex. Most of us grow out of it and mature. But, younger me? And most of the A's I read about here? A lot of lying going on, sometimes to the point where I do think it should be a crime. But it's not rape, not even close.

PlanC,

I am and I'm not desperate. I am desperate to make a decision on staying or leaving.

Right now I have divorce looming. My wife relented. I think the counselors might be playing a game of chicken with the separation. My wife had to call one IC to get her thoughts on nesting versus in house separation. She is desparate and the counselors are influencing the process.

Now... I like to win. I am controlling enough for ODS.

What I am trying to figure out is, what are my boundries? Do I wait, set boundaries, or cut bait and run. When I set my boundaries, what is fair in light of the ODS? When are my boundaries too rigid.

I could use some help with that from those affected by ODS.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 7:11 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

I know she is following the recommendations of the IC, but I don't know if I want to be part of that process. I think it puts too much of the weight on me.

Exactly! Stay out of it. Let her heal herself. You need the space, time, energy, and focus to heal yourself. It takes a lot of work, a lot of getting to know parts of ourselves that we did not know existed, emotional muscles we didn't know we had, to exit this crisis in one piece--better and stronger than ever. It is not just acceptable to focus on your needs, it's necessary. You two can look at the marriage in due time.

SiSoon,

I need to get to the point of "requesting" sex. Or coping with not asking. Frequency when I don't ask wasn't an issue during the false R.

I think NC is expected.

No new A's is expected.

I don't like the separation. I feel it was imposed after I flipped out. But "I get it".

If my wife can't "love" me and be around me then I think divorce makes sense.

I am sensitive to use divorce as a carrot because of abusing that power before.

Like sex, how do you force someone to hold your hand. Or cuddle on the couch. Is it going to take some time anyway considering we were on the brink of divorce/legal separation anyway.

I don't know what my expectations SHOULD be.

I am all for leaving if boundaries aren't met. But expectations aren't boundaries.

I don't know... Help!

OwningItNow,

You two can look at the marriage in due time.

So she shouldn't be invested in helping me heal?

Why don't you and your wife have this conversation? Ask her what you both want during this "separation" as far as physical contact? I think sex should be off the table for now seeing as how that is such a "hot button" for both of you right now. For a couple of weeks, a month, whatever you both decide. Ask what physical contact she would be comfortable with, tell her what you would like. See if you can come up with some expectations and boundaries that both of you have agreed upon.

I am sorry that I don't full get this . . .

Right now I have divorce looming. My wife relented.

Your wife wants a divorce, but she has been talked out of it? Why would IC talk her out of it? And how are you sure that is what took place?

The one willing to lose the marriage has the power. Period. You have got to stop trying to keep her in this, even if you feel guilty about SOD.

Remember my situation is very similar: my H was an ass, alcohol addict, porn addict, selfish, prostitutes (once), so I had an A. My H is working hard to correct all of this, but I was a broken, weak, codependent people pleasing, dysfunctional liar and cheat! I am so deeply ashamed! Where is that remorse in your wife? You can't make her own what she has done, and you can never R if she doesn't own it. What my H did DID NOT excuse my horrific actions! I should have said, "I'm out of here!" He probably would have changed! She must own her dysfunction. You did not make her cheat, even SOD.

Stop trying to blame yourself so that you can keep your M. Get healthy and strong. She must want to stay and be remorseful. Otherwise, there is nothing you did or can do. She's too broken.

You cannot make her want to help you heal. She is not remorseful and seems to want to blame you and not herself, so that is why she does not want to help you heal.

Honestly, she seems to be indicating this was an exit A, which mine was also. If so, unless she realizes that she wronged you and the marriage by cheating before she ever let you know she felt THIS BAD, she will continue to have the upper hand in this recovery. If she finally sees, "Wait a second! Why did I not just tell him I wanted a divorce? What sort of sick person am I?" and owns her part in this collapse, then I think she will want to heal you. And you will want to heal her.

But you have to let go of the outcome! You cannot R alone. I am so sorry.

(Adding, I thought that I wanted to exit my M. But I didn't, not really. Your wife seems to be in a similar place. An exit A doesn't have to mean a for sure exit, just that the person was truly unhappy in the M and went shopping for a way out. Idiotic and unhealthy, I know. But often people realize they really want the M fixed, not an exit.)

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:22 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

SisterMilkshake,

We go to MC on the 29th. I want to let things settle a bit. I know MC will say that it is my wife's choice. So I will request it and see what happens. I'll make a list of options like going out on a date, walking, sitting on the couch. But I'll have to present them. I think the way I communicate it will be important.

OwningItNow,

The one willing to lose the marriage has the power. Period.

Then I win. Ok, bad joke. My wife was recruiting cousins on the 12th before her conversation with me on the 15th about nesting. There is her one cousin who's wife had an A and was buddy with my W. Partners in crime. My W wanted to get him to be sympathetic to our marriage (just found out today). She is frightened. And I want to be respectful of that "power". I am trying to figure out how to negotiate without abusing that. But... your are right, I'm not strong. So I have to work on me. Weak and powerful.

But I'm not sure how remorseful she really is. This next 2 weeks will be telling. But I need to figure out my expectations versus boundaries.

I'll address what you wrote more in a bit. Have to go to the airport to pick her up.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 7:29 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

Catch44, in my experience you can't go wrong focusing on yourself. Do not be cruel to her! But focus on you and get level and strong. Remember who you are and that you like you and that you will be fine no matter what. New hobby, walks, biking, music, races, gardening, projects, journaling, coffee houses, art, swimming, reading, thinking, movies, whatever. Enjoy time the way you want. Let yourself do things that bring joy to your day. Take the pressure off. It always, always helps. It is not your wife's job to make you happy, it is yours. A good marriage ends up as icing on the cake.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:38 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

Dude,

Three simple words.

Gun Shot Wound

Which loosely translated means STOP. Take care of you and your needs. Yes, it'd be nice if she cared more about the damage she's done with how many ddays? Four, but she's shown you who she is.

It's terrifying to smash the rose colored glasses, trust me I know, but once you see the truth, you can't unsee it. Do what you need to do for YOU. You can always remarry her later if she finally gets it. She sounds ungodly insincere by the words coming from your own mouth.

Regardless, either way will be painful. Staying or divorcing, but at some point you have to take control of you and your life. It took me twenty five years and I'm fifty starting over with literally nothing, but I can say with total honesty, I'm happier then I have ever been as an adult and GASP I'm single.

I've only read page 1. So I'm jumping in late.

Quite honestly. This sounds like abuse. You may have never hurt her. But you are using words, namecalling, condescension, and threats to assert power over her, make her feel inferior, and attempt to control her.

If those are just the things thst jump out, how many smaller acts of aggression occur daily and in everyday moments?

What is on demand sex? Is it exactly what it sounds like? Are you demanding sex of your wife??? You aren't entitled to her body at your whim.

Catching up - your wife's affair is separate from your m issues.

I can't really figure out what Catches personal definition of sex on demand is, even 10 pages in, but I've seen this topic creep up before. Many BH's come to the conclusion if she was a slut for OM and did these things for him then she can certainly do those things for her husband, whenever, wherever I want.

I think this attitude is wrought out of resentment and I guarantee that there isn't a single shred of respect that BH feels for WW when he takes this view. If you have lost that amount of respect in your wife to the point you view her as your cum vessel, I think the marriage is pretty much fucked.

OwningItNow,,

Get healthy and strong. She must want to stay and be remorseful

I was working on my book tonight and letting go of control.

It was good. I felt lighter. I hope is isn't hard to stay in that mindset when a trigger or wave hits.

My wife sat to talk with me. Said she was glad to be back and see me. I have to figure out what I want. Until then I'll work on a stronger less controlling/ controlled me.

My wife wanted a separation where we had different residences so I said that doesn't work for me. I said We need to divorce (legal separation would be a first step). Then came the walk and recommendation of nesting. I agree that I also believe that she is not helping me heal because she is not remorseful.

I need to watch her for remorse. Right now, I have accepted that I cant control her out of another affair (at least for the last 3 hrs) I accept that she is a cheater. So really it is up to her to prove she is safe. Or I'll need to leave for my own peace of mind.

I think your comment added a great perspective. Thank you.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 12:29 AM, May 23rd (Tuesday)]

Thanks Lark and Randy for your comments.

It was pre-A, so I don't even have that as an excuse.

Catch44, I have found your marital dynamic and individual personalities to be both intriguing and complex. The vibe that is emerging may be similar to my own M: you are both broken and guilty (only one of infidelity, but your marital transgression is pretty awful) and you are both codependent and insecure, unable to enforce boundaries in healthy ways and get the love and respect you both need.

You seem to be admitting to control issues, only one of which was ODS.

She seems to have been unable to stand up for herself in the M so hurt you in a passive aggressive way by repeatedly cheating to cope, and now she struggles to be remorseful because she is harboring huge resentment over your treatment of her for many years.

Your fear that she will leave has you rethinking your control and ODS. You do not want a divorce.

Her fear that she has to follow through on a divorce terrifies her, and that has her wondering how to keep the small bit of power she finally feels in the M without totally losing the M. She is conflicted.

But you have always tried to control (and been successful) to get your needs met, so you feel some resentment about not getting sex or comfort now, especially because you feel she has done damage that she needs to fix.

And she cannot figure out if she should give in to keep you or if she will be betraying herself because she does not want to be controlled.

********

Well, I think this is correct but I am not sure, especially since it exactly mirrors my own situation and marriage so I may be projecting. lol.

If my summary is corret, you both have a lot of owning and growing to do. You definitely need to work on your control issues which do indeed sound abusive as others have said. My guess is that as she sees you figuring yourself out and working to be healthy, she will feel safe to own her own brokenness. Obviously she needs to. If you were controlling, then she should have or could have left and asserted her power in other ways. She needs to feel true remorse for her very poor choices.

You must have boundaries in your M, and the no separation was a good one to enforce. But you cannot control people to get your needs met. The danger of controlling those you care about is that they struggle to break free, in one way or another. Like Lenny in Of Mice and Men, you will crush them with your force. You must love yourself enough that you can allow others to be who they are without it terrifying you; you should get your needs met through your own self or through others' love and appreciation of your goodness, because they want to meet your needs.

Your best bet is to have boundaries (a.k.a. everything related to transparency and ending her cheating) but otherwise to work on your own issues and learning to manage and be responsible for your own emotions. It is work you will not regret doing, no matter the outcome.

I am hoping that this focus on you instead of on her will bring her back to the marriage emotionally. She needs to want to be there and feel it is a good, safe place for her. And it is then that you would need and deserve the soothing and healing from her, affirmation that you deserve after what you have been through. You two will heal very much like madhatters, both giving security and love and receiving security and love. It's a lot of work.

Heal yourself first with 1) strong boundaries that make you feel safe and 2) self love that makes you feel strong and healthy, no matter the outcome. I find that doing that naturally moves you to a place where you begin to heal the relationships that have been damaged, so it will feel like a flow of better choices and attitudes. The M will heal naturally as you both get healthier. It always begins with working on ourselves.

Peace and hugs to you, Catch44. This is the hardest work I have ever done, but it has brought unparalleled peace and joy that I did not know was possible. It is all so worth it.