SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

And there's your "aha moment". Underneath it all, you still believe that there was something you might have done differently to avoid being cheated on.

I'm not going to make any friends with this statement either (I probably need to give this thread a rest), but, yes, I could have done things differently and not gotten cheated on. It's not my fault, no, but I absolutely could have prevented it, no question in my mind. And while I don't "blame myself" for her cheating, I do blame myself for not trying harder and preventing it from happening in the first place.

So, if your goal is simply to get laid, continue doing what you're doing. If, on the other hand, you ever decide you want a real relationship again, throw all this "red pill" baloney on the trash heap where it belongs. "Alpha and "beta" are temporary descriptions of behaviors, not a lifetime sentence for a fully developed human being.

I long ago stopped the PUA stuff; and tried for the "real relationship". And it was great to be myself with someone, it really was. But that in no way invalidates the effectiveness or, in my eyes, truth of what some of the RP message brings to men. The worst thing about pick up is that it works; it works so well that it's soul destroying. Yes, I was probably getting "lower quality" women and broken women who would fall for it, I don't disagree with that. But I also, at the time, did not care, I wasn't looking for a life partner, I was looking for a sexual partner. ETA: And sadly, my W was one of those lower quality women with the AP. So, PU works in a lot of contexts, even with women who, at least I, consider the highest quality.

In the context of this website, we do the 180 when we've been cheated on and are reeling and trying to find our footing. But what context does the dread game have? Doing it just because? It doesn't sound like RP is proposing to do this in times of trouble within the relationship, but rather to make this the default setting. Does that really seem healthy, to make the dread game how it always is in a relationship? How stressful!

Agreed, but the psychological component, the thing it elicits in the partner is the same thing. You will lose me, I can detach from you and move on. Yes, in the case of I, they deserve it; but we're leveraging the same emotional pathways that you do when your trying to keep a girl around for sex. Are we doing it with better intent, absolutely, no question, but it's the same type of behavior, and is intended to elicit the same response as "dread game".

It seems to me that society teaches both men and women values that are not conducive to either's health.

I could not agree more. And feminism and the RP are both reactions to that. Both, IMHO, take it way too far, but they are both a way to cut through the crap that society teaches us to see what's really there.

The double standard makes me wanna tear out my hair and run around screaming with a baseball bat, burning our hypocritical society to the ground. But that wouldn't be very ladylike.

LOL! Women choose, men are picked. It really comes down to that. But yes, it's certainly a double standard, but one that exists for biological reasons, a man who sleeps with many women is biologically successful, a woman who does is likely not to be. It's programming from the factory.

Just maybe this world is so complicated and stressful that most people have lost who they really are, lost their true confidence? What if you are blaming women for what society has actually done to your self-esteem, for what you have allowed to happen? Just a possibility.

I could not agree more. And to your question, society is teaching men and women these negative traits. But I think your "possibility" is in fact the answer; men don't know who they are anymore, and women aren't far behind in losing what defined them.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 5:47 AM, February 2nd (Friday)]

Women choose, men are picked.

*sigh* Try saying that to a woman with gapped teeth. Or one who is slightly overweight. Or one who doesn't fit traditional societal views of "attractive". Both genders have ones who choose and ones who are picked; making it one gender versus the other as a sweeping whole just alienates people.

Besides, think about it - often, women are shamed for choosing. We're shamed for having any sort of sexual activity at all. If anything, shaming tactics mean some women might feel less freedom to explore their choices, since making any sort of choice will automatically incur a huge cost, no matter who that choice winds up being. It's like saying men are allowed to test the dating waters and try many types of women, but women are only allowed one or two mates in their lifetime, because if women test the dating waters, then it depreciates her value. (God, I can't believe I just typed that.)

In other words, stop generally shaming women for having sex, and maybe then more people will be getting laid! Savvy?

men don't know who they are anymore,

This is why the 'real man' stuff is SOOOOO insulting. You've got 9 or 10 different angles telling a 18-25 year old dude that this is what a real man is (sleep with a bunch of chicks, you're a real man; find a woman and 'take care of her' financially you're a real man; work out until your muscles have muscles and you're a real man; etc. Etc).

Its all sales pitches. Manipulation. But a young guy isn't gonna see it for what is is, because he is coming into adulthood and WANTS to be seen as a man.

Examples: At 19, I was in the drive through and a woman says 'we need to get this man his burger' and that made me happy. At 20, my mom said 'you're only a real man when your mom says you are, and you are'.... and I bought it.

It's all hogwash.

I said I would leave this thread but I have one last comment.

I agree that slut shaming single women is absolutely ludicrous, as in female sexuality while single is no way a marker for being loose when married, and frankly I want women to be sexually liberated, it just means better odds for single me to get some loving, besides who am I to tell a single woman not to do what I did as a single man? It’s slut shaming and societal expectations of women that lead to absolute unnaceptable but very real phenomenon like madonna whore complex, and why men don’t forgive that... a woman who isn’t sexually expressive with an AP that’s she isn’t with her BH Is so damaging that it’s often why BH can never take her back, and I really believe As fucked up as it is until it’s happened, women don’t teally understand what it does emotionally to their BH.

Red pill has some truths, and some inflation’s, amen does work in getting guys laid. No disputing that. But in the end it’s not a way to live that’s leaves a man fulfilled. It gives Victoria but they are hollow in the end.

But I want to add, that as aBH I can totally understand why it’s so alluring to BH. We essentially learned that treating one woman well, investing in her, and respecting her got us disrespected and humiliated. It make us resent being a good guy, because we feel like the asshole won. In my case I made him pay dearly and it felt amazing, probably for unhealthy reasons but watching him suffer gave me peace.in that sense dominance made sense to me. And in many ways we try to reclaim what they took away, and prove to ourselves that we are worthy of happiness and love and clearly our original way let us down. But it’s not healthy to treat ALL women like they’ve are our WW. Look I know it’s bad but iif a BH Lies, manipulates and disprespects his WW after dday I’m going to say she probably deserves it. But carrying that mentality to all women is unhealthy, unfair and not useful long term. Not all women are our WWs. In fact, most are not.

But I feel bad for guys who are so jaded from being disguarded that it becomes appealing to think that way. It really just sucks all around

I will thread jack the thread jack, NTV, and counter by saying that “real man” and other shaming phrases are useful if the definitions align with usefull traits. A real man works. A real man takes care of his children. A real man does not cheat on or abandon a wife who sacrificed her career and youth to bear his children.

Modern society endeavors to be judgment-free. But I reject that. I will keep on judging and shaming the unprincipled and undisciplined.

[This message edited by PlanC at 6:49 AM, February 2nd (Friday)]

Most slut shaming is women shaming women. I've heard men say "she's a slut" but then happily try to initiate a relationship with her, so maybe I'm weird, but I think most of the "shame" is women making other women feel bad for being sexually liberated, not men. However, there is one universal truth, while men are happy to sleep with a slut, they aren't generally interested in marrying one. But the same thing is true for men, women are happy to sleep with and spend time with an out of work guy who rides a motorcycle and has muscles on top of muscles, but it's a different story for the people they want to marry.

This is why the 'real man' stuff is SOOOOO insulting.

Generally, whenever I hear someone say a "real man" does something whatever they are saying is a poor idea for the man and a fantastic idea for the woman saying it. It's a shame tactic and yes, there are things that I think men should do, not to be a "real man" but to be a good person. Taking care of your kids has nothing to do with being a man, it's just what you do if you're a good person.

Red pill has some truths, and some inflation’s, amen does work in getting guys laid. No disputing that. But in the end it’s not a way to live that’s leaves a man fulfilled. It gives Victoria but they are hollow in the end.

Yes, because anyone using these tactics knows that the woman isn't sleeping with you for you, they are sleeping with you because you memorized and practiced delivery of lines. That's how I felt about it, I wanted women to like me, not "Mystery" or "Roosh" or any of the other PUA's who's lines I parroted. But the lines worked, the methods were "better" than mine for getting a woman in bed, and, I eventually gave up on the "real me" and decided that their method was better, and that's who I should be as a person. That's the soul killer right there, because, of course, you're a poor imitation of the guys who thought this stuff up, and you know that any girl you get this way would happily jump from you to the original, or to any other guy who has more practice/better lines. It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with your skill in manipulation. That statement makes me sick, even thinking about it today with 10+ years since I spewed that crap to get women in bed.

The last thing I'll say, PUA to me, is kind of like a woman wearing makeup/push up bras/short skirts. It's a way to make yourself more attractive to the other sex by hiding/covering up who you are and presenting something else. Women universally seem to accept that "covering up" their natural self is required to get the best quality mate, I guess men are starting to join them. Yes, it's a totally different method because women are more attracted to words (in general) and men more to looks. But it's the same general idea; a false presentation of who you are. Maybe PUA lines will become as common as makeup at some point? If every man does it, will it be as effective? I hope not, and probably not are my answers. ;)

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:02 AM, February 2nd (Friday)]

a woman who isn’t sexually expressive with an AP that’s she isn’t with her BH Is so damaging that it’s often why BH can never take her back, and I really believe As fucked up as it is until it’s happened, women don’t teally understand what it does emotionally to their BH.

Oh, I think we do. Much better than you realize. It's a pain not exclusive to either gender, and it hurts equally badly. Isn't there a thread right now in the R Forum about this very thing - started by a BW? Many of us, man or woman, are haunted by the sexual details the most. So why not validate each other rather than turning it into gender-exclusive pain and suffering? I said it before and I'll say it again - we'd all have a lot more in common (and therefore a lot more support) if we saw these things as human traits, rather than assigning them to one gender or another.

However, there is one universal truth, while men are happy to sleep with a slut, they aren't generally interested in marrying one. But the same thing is true for men, women are happy to sleep with and spend time with an out of work guy who rides a motorcycle and has muscles on top of muscles, but it's a different story for the people they want to marry.

Interesting how there isn't a male equivalent for the word "slut". Instead, it's the long description of "an out of work guy who rides a motorcycle and has muscles on top of muscles", and nowhere in that description is the man shamed for his sexuality specifically.

Also, sleeping with someone but finding them not good enough to marry can be a form of shaming. Especially when coupled with beliefs that women depreciate with each partner they gain.

Yes, women do shame other women, and it's wrong. Men shame women too. Please stop putting all of this on the women.

Yes, I was probably getting "lower quality" women and broken women who would fall for it,

Very honest that you judge the woman like a cow. Dude, you were putting your genitals in her genitals but somehow you were much better than her. How very telling about about youself. How is it that you felt of better quality than these woman who fell for you “game”? What made you better quality?

But yes, it's certainly a double standard, but one that exists for biological reasons, a man who sleeps with many women is biologically successful, a woman who does is likely not to be Biologically successful?

Why is she not "biologically" successful but the man is? Really want to know.

Did you have children with all these women? That is biological success according to you (big boobs, wide hip theory mentioned). Otherwise it is just sex. Do you want to have a child with every woman you pick up? What if one of them got pregnant, one of the -you know, low quality creatures? Biology? The alpha wolf would get to mate and have offspring to care for unless he used a condom or the female was on birth control

But yes, it's certainly a double standard, but one that exists for biological reasons

In some parts of the world, women are stoned if they are accused of Adultery, men, not so much, is that because of a biological reason? Or is it about power and control. Ever hear of Bride Burning, is that for biological reasons?

The rise of this ideology I feel at the gut level is due to women are now having more choices and agency in their lives. More woman than men are getting degrees, competing with men for jobs, not needing to depend on a male for making their way through life. And some men hate it, they resent it, they would rather woman need to be kept “in their place”. That high quality woman you want? She can make a life for herself now. It’s about women getting the chance now, and not worry about a male paycheck to survive.

Answer me this- why was 11 year old Malala Yousafzai shot in the head for advocating for girls to get an education? Why? Biology?

[This message edited by shiloe at 7:16 AM, February 2nd (Friday)]

Interesting how there isn't a male equivalent for the word "slut".

Player or playboy is probably the most direct comparison. Neither carries nearly the same negative connotation. But there's a social/biological reason for that, being a player/playboy requires a lot of effort, personal work, qualities that women find attractive, and men look up to other men who are able to easily attract and bed women. Being a "slut" just requires saying "yes". There's no effort/skill involved and women look down on women who are like that. It's not men who are doing that to women, it really isn't, at least not exclusively, but I'd argue, not nearly as much as women are shaming one another for it. Which also has a biological basis, a "slut" is a danger to other women, it lowers the value of sex and makes it less of a "hook" to keep men interested and engaged in a relationship. A playboy, while a danger to other men if they are the "wife poaching" variety, isn't viewed the same way. Men generally appreciate the skill necessary to do that and while they almost certainly wouldn't want their wives hanging out with said playboy, don't view it as a negative.

a woman who isn’t sexually expressive with an AP that’s she isn’t with her BH Is so damaging that it’s often why BH can never take her back, and I really believe As fucked up as it is until it’s happened, women don’t teally understand what it does emotionally to their BH.

Oh, I think we do. Much better than you realize. It's a pain not exclusive to either gender, and it hurts equally badly. Isn't there a thread right now in the R Forum about this very thing - started by a BW? Many of us, man or woman, are haunted by the sexual details the most. So why not validate each other rather than turning it into gender-exclusive pain and suffering? I said it before and I'll say it again - we'd all have a lot more in common (and therefore a lot more support) if we saw these things as human traits, rather than assigning them to one gender or another.

I just realized. You do know. You commented on that thread. So you read the pain the other posters (mostly BWs) were expressing, and concluded that BHs had it worse? This is not the Pain Olympics!

I just realized. You do know. You commented on that thread. So you read the pain the other posters (mostly BWs) were expressing, and concluded that BHs had it worse? This is not the Pain Olympics

Fyi - i see you guys saying the same thing with a difference in semantics. Pain is pain.

But there's a social/biological reason for that, being a player/playboy requires a lot of effort, personal work, qualities that women find attractive, and men look up to other men who are able to easily attract and bed women. Being a "slut" just requires saying "yes".

*facepalm* If you think women put no work into "getting guys" aside from saying yes, I honestly don't know what to say. Women have to do a lot more than say yes or no. Notice: I didn't disparage what you said men go through. I just said you're mistaken about the lack of effort you believe women must put in.

A man can have just as much sex with one wife as a hundred barflies. I can’t understand the playboy mindset except other than as a reflection of low self esteem and trying to prove something to offset that low self-esteem.

Why is she not "biologically" successful but the man is? Really want to know.

You illustrated it in your post. A woman who sleeps with many men may be stoned, may be outcast, and will have difficulty getting a support system in place for children from many men.

A man can, biologically, have a nearly unlimited number of children if he sleeps with a whole lot of women. A woman can only have so much children, no matter how many men she sleeps with, and the more men she sleeps with, the less likely she is to develop a strong support mechanism to raise those children.

Oh a funny note, I remember reading that some ancient rule, Genghis Khan maybe, had 20,000 children or some ridiculous number. That's the very definition of biological success, only achieved by sleeping with lots of different women. That's a perfect illustration of why the biological imperative for men/women is different.

Fyi - i see you guys saying the same thing with a difference in semantics. Pain is pain.

It was him saying "women don’t totally understand" that I took offense to. Of course women can't fully understand what it means to be a man, and vice versa. But saying that women can't totally understand how utterly emasculating (you know what, there needs to be a female equivalent for this word, because we DO know what it means to be un-womanned because of his sex with someone else) it is, it sounds very dismissive.

I'm going to step back from this thread for a bit. Can sense myself getting upset. Of all the emotions I supposedly have at my disposal as a woman, anger is the one I feel least entitled to. Isn't that odd? I feel more often than not like I have to stifle it, or like sadness is more accepted, otherwise my anger might alienate people, be seen as a sign that I'm unstable. And I see the opposite in my son: he fights to suppress sadness, because to him anger is more acceptable. I worry about both our emotional healths and seek to heal us both, preferably by helping us both realize and embrace the full range of human emotions.

SH, you shouldn't bottle your anger, thats a recipe for disaster. As for 'It was him saying "women don’t totally understand" that I took offense to.', I read that as "[wayward] women don't totally understand", but I can see why you read it the way you did.

I appreciate your support, NTV. Part of my problem is that I don't have a clear picture of what's an acceptable way to express anger, aside from saying "I am angry" out loud. Pulling my hair out, running around screaming with a baseball bat, and random acts of arson aren't socially acceptable. Here's hoping I can keep learning and keep searching until I find a healthy answer.

You illustrated it in your post. A woman who sleeps with many men may be stoned, may be outcast, and will have difficulty getting a support system in place for children from many men.

Well, of course, that certainly justifies a woman being stoned. Noticed I said accused not proven to be an adultress. I did not say a wouman who sleeps with many men. Are the prostitutes stoned?

I noticed you didn't answer the other questions:

How is it that you felt of better quality than these woman who fell for you “game”? What made you better quality?

Did you have children with all these women? That is biological success according to you (big boobs, wide hip theory mentioned). Otherwise it is just sex. Do you want to have a child with every woman you pick up? What if one of them got pregnant, one of the -you know, low quality creatures?

Ever hear of Bride Burning, is that for biological reasons?

Answer me this- why was 11 year old Malala Yousafzai shot in the head for advocating for girls to get an education? Why? Biology?

Genghis Khan maybe, had 20,000 children or some ridiculous number. That's the very definition of biological success, only achieved by sleeping with lots of different women.

So I guess you could also use this as a justification for men to rape?

Alright if you aren't aware of this, during earlier times of rulers, many soldiers and kings who would conquer the kingdom would rape the wives of the men and sell their kids as slaves. Brutal truth. It was like a tradition. Depiction of my superiority over yours, you could say. So yes, rape was common, he must've raped many women.

Do you think he stuck around and was a doting father to these kid

You can pick and choose examples all you want.

Genghis' time is over.

Do soldiers still rape and abuse women in the town and cities they take? Um, yes, they do. Are there laws military laws against it? Is it right for these soldiers to rape the "loser" sides women? Do you believe that can't help it because it is in their biology to rape? Hey, look there's a 13 yo girl over there, let's get her, (afterall she is fertile)

[This message edited by shiloe at 8:45 AM, February 2nd (Friday)]