SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I wasn't going to reply any more to this thread because it has gone a little skewed but I was thinking last night after reading some posts here about how a week and a half ago she was crying, begging, saying she loved you and was envisioning your life together. Then this week its back to square one. Why?

I think she is happy having a roommate and someone who does not press her or hold her accountable. I agree with you that I think the first time you had sex again, she thought all was forgiven and that was that. She was done.

I doubt she is having an affair, but it does feel like she is acting this way on purpose for some reason. I guess because she can and you seem to accept it or did accept it.

I agree with what everyone is saying with trying to build your marriage, but that is also going to build resentment. Why would he put in all the effort, when in reality he is already given her the gift of reconciliation, if she isn't willing to put in effort, why should he at this point.

Now he shows an interest. He askes specific question relating to what I do. Does he really care if I used a dark wax or a glaze on a piece of furniture? No. He doesn’t. What he has discovered is my smile and joy in my art. Recognizing it’s a release and a passion for me. Down to seeing a certain paint brush for furniture finishing while he is out and bringing it home for me to try.

Growing up and realizing not being a selfish jerk benefits me!

But you are the betrayed spouse. How would you be treating your husband if he was withholding sex from you? Would you as the BS be romancing him back to you? I don't think so.

Anything is possible, but from what you have described about your marriage and the MC process, etc., I don't think it's likely that your WW is having another A.

She agreed that we need to have better sex more often. She agreed that now that our kids are no longer infants/toddlers, we need to focus on each other more and not put 100% of our energy into the kids.

You posted that less than 2 weeks ago. She gave you good sex once, then refused, then told you to get over it. That was a pretty quick turn around.

I think the fact is that she doesn't make the connection of love and sex. I think she thinks it's perfectly acceptable and possible to have a great marriage/relationship full of love, without a healthy sex life. To her, it's not a big deal. I am not entirely back to square one. It's just become all to clear to me that our sex life is basically over. Unless I want to keep thrusting away like I have been. Now I'm in the position where I either accept things as they are and probably always will be, or leave her and have the entire family/community believe that it was because I didn't think she was good enough in bed. That's far from the truth, but that's how the story will be spun through the rumor mill... I know from other people's experiences.

And you people are only hearing one side of the story. I may not always present my wife in a positive light on this board, for obvious reasons. She is a GREAT mother. She is a kind hearted, giving person. She would do anything for anybody. Her heart breaks for those who are helplessly stuck in bad situations, and she wishes she could do more for everyone. She is the pillar of her rapidly crumbling family, the one that her siblings and even parents depend on to keep the family intact. She is not a nag. She doesn't get pissed at me if I occasionally forget to do the dishes, or let a home repair project go for too long. She lets me basically do anything I want to with my friends, hobbies, etc. She takes no issue if I go out with my buddies and don't come home until 4am (which is rare, but it does occasionally happen, especially if my band has played somewhere). She is always happy to see me when I come home. She still uses the same nickame she's used for me for over a decade. She plans fun things for our date nights, including this upcoming anniversary. She is beautiful. She looks better now then she did when we were dating. I find her incredibly sexy, with all the right curves in all the right places. She has a million other great qualities.

She also had an affair. Although it was brief, it happened. I have more or less accepted that affair, and have mostly put it behind me. It hurts still, and I will probably never trust anybody again, but I don't know what to say... I just don't dwell on it too much.

She also has supposedly no sex drive (at least for me). She said she's read articles and spoken to her doctor about this, and they all just kind of say "that is normal for a woman in your situation". Situation being, a mom of young kids that also works and takes classes, has a lot on her plate, etc. She says she wants to have a sex drive, that she feels like a part of her has died and she hates it. That she is more than willing to allow me to use her for sex, but that she just can't get there in her mind.

I don't have that many ill feelings towards her. If she could just have the sex drive she had 5 years ago, I'd feel like I'd died and gone to heaven.

[This message edited by Fenderguy at 3:01 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Fender,

Because of her family life. Did she learn to not make waves, do not bring things up. Just to go with life for peace?

Some of what you describe as her being awesome, letting home projects go. Not doing dishes. Hanging out with friends until 4.

These are things my friends get pissed about. These drive a wedge in the marriage. What if she has been conditioned to not make waves?

Also these are the things you read about between couples that prevent good sex on the woman’s side of things.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 3:10 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Good grief...

Yes, paying attention to your spouse - in a healthy marriage - is absolutely something everyone should be doing.

But right after the affair? What Butfor said he did and what he is advising Fender to do - pay more attention to her; maker her feel appreciated and wanted?

All while she flatly says she doesn't want to have sex with him?

Sorry, but ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

Do yourselves a favor and google "Pick me dance," because you are advocating doing just that. You really need to learn what it is.

Trying to "nice the WS back" by doing the pick me dance is the absolute worst thing a BS can do. All it does is reinforce to the WS that what they did wasn't that bad and that the BS will actually REWARD the WS's behavior.

If you want to try and argue that it isn't, well, you have fun with that.

[This message edited by WornDown at 3:08 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Well I think you have your answer. I think you know you don't want to divorce. Now you just need to figure out how to go about living with (or technically without) it.

This may just be a hurdle, it may pass. I don't know how old your kids are but mine are 7 and 9 and things are a lot easier now, less mommy mommy mommy. Hopefully as time progresses, she may ease up, relax and open up more.

You just have to decide if its worth it to you to keep bringing it up, and arguing it, and holding resentment for it, or is it something you can accept for now and have hope for the future about.

Now I'm in the position where I either accept things as they are and probably always will be, or leave her and have the entire family/community believe that it was because I didn't think she was good enough in bed.

If you decide to leave her, I'd suggest you be proactive and make it clear that you are leaving her because she had an A.

As to the sex drive, my impression of her A is that even it (the A) was somewhat lackluster, for lack of a better term. The way you describe her, she sounds like a woman who hasn't felt the heat of a man's deep interest for some time. The tawdry fake game of the AP provided some ersatz numinence, but even that was tarnished when she realized how she had been played. I sense that the part of her that is the emotional woman looking for love is feeling abandoned and has retreated. My suggestions are driven by this. Pink says you've "given the gift of R", but have you really? I mean, you're still married in a technical sense, but are you truly 100% both feet all the way in, acting as a husband would act when his wife is feeling like she is losing her identity and relevance in the world other than as a mother? From your comments, I don't think you are.

All I'm saying is that if you really do want to R, then you have to act as a husband would act, notwithstanding the A. If your wife is feeling like she is losing herself, then your role as husband is to help her find herself. It is not normal for a 30-40 year old woman to lack interest in sex. Something is injured in her soul to feel that way.

My suggestions are coming from the experiences of a husband whose wife also reached that place. I have found some success in my efforts, and one of the side benefits has been the return of the spark in our marriage and, along with it, our sex life.

She doesn't get pissed at me if I occasionally forget to do the dishes, or let a home repair project go for too long.

LOL. This reminds me of a quote I saw once: "Ladies, if a man says he'll fix something, he'll fix it. You don't have to keep reminding him every six months."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:13 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Fenderguy -

What you have is not a wife, but a roommate who doubles as the nanny.

If you aren't in IC, I strongly suggest you find one, because your entire post is spent defending and justifying her (in)actions, all while minimizing your needs/wants.

I (and a lot of others) am here to tell you that's a really shitty way to live, and will only lead to resentment on your part.

But go with God.

Worn down,

I just read your story. I absolutely can understand your position. I am so sorry you had to go through so much. The OP’s situation isn’t yours nor mine.

Hopefully, Fender and his wife will be able to work together to resolve these deep hurts.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 3:15 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

As to the sex drive, my impression of her A is that even it (the A) was somewhat lackluster, for lack of a better term. The way you describe her, she sounds like a woman who hasn't felt the heat of a man's deep interest for some time. The tawdry fake game of the AP provided some ersatz numinence, but even that was tarnished when she realized how she had been played. I sense that the part of her that is the emotional woman looking for love is feeling abandoned and has retreated. My suggestions are driven by this. Pink says you've "given the gift of R", but have you really? I mean, you're still married in a technical sense, but are you truly 100% both feet all the way in, acting as a husband would act when his wife is feeling like she is losing her identity and relevance in the world other than as a mother? From your comments, I don't think you are.

Jesus. Blame the victim much?

All I'm saying is that if you really do want to R, then you have to act as a husband would act, notwithstanding the A. If your wife is feeling like she is losing herself, then your role as husband is to help her find herself. It is not normal for a 30-40 year old woman to lack interest in sex. Something is injured in her soul to feel that way.

It is absolutely not someone's role in life to fix someone else. That is a fool's errand. It is the person who is broken's job to fix themselves.

If you think YOU doing things will fix your WW so that she won't cheat again (or want to love you), without her doing the heavy lifting - you are going to be sorely mistaken.

Yet your advice is for Fender to do just that - the heavy lifting.

Worn down,

I just read your story. I absolutely can understand your position. I am so sorry you had to go through so much. The OP’s situation isn’t yours nor mine.

Hopefully, Fender and his wife will be able to work together to resolve these deep hurts.

For the record -

My position is not because I went through the shit.

But because thousands of others, including myself, have done just what Butfor is advocating.

ALL have met with disastrous results.

All I'm saying is that if you really do want to R, then you have to act as a husband would act, notwithstanding the A. If your wife is feeling like she is losing herself, then your role as husband is to help her find herself. It is not normal for a 30-40 year old woman to lack interest in sex. Something is injured in her soul to feel that way.

I am a betrayed wife...I disagree with this.

Its not YOUR job..its hers. And to take responsibiltiy for it is to set her up for failure.

I am not sure where the belief that it was not normal for a woman of that age to not want sex. Every single woman I know has had long periods of time during that age of not wanting sex because usually she has put her own needs at the bottom of the list in order to care for everyone else.

Here is the thing...no one...not even your spouse is responsible for you being connected to yourself. Its not their job to help you "find" yourself. And if her soul is injured no amount of coffee bringing and talking about politics is going to help.

I will also offer that my WH hubris around issues like "what I needed" pushed me away. I couldn't hear my own voice buried beneath PTA reminders, paying bills and remembering to pick up crunchy peanut butter. I needed him to support me by backing off and letting me hear that voice again.

Our sex life has never been better..because I am a whole woman who knows life doesn't end if I forget crunchy(the can live with creamy) or if the dishes dont get washed. I gave myself the permission to be a human being..that had nothing to do with him. Everything to do with me.

I am wonderful, smart and damn sexy whether the dishes are done or not. Whether he sees it or not...and that frees me being shackled by expectations. So he gets sex A LOT more because I enjoy it for selfish reasons...because it makes me feel good. Not because he helped me find myself but because I found me...and remembered I am one sexy powerful woman.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 3:30 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

She says she wants to have a sex drive, that she feels like a part of her has died and she hates it. That she is more than willing to allow me to use her for sex, but that she just can't get there in her mind.

Even this isn't accurate. She doesn't allow you to even touch her aside from PIV doggystyle. What does this say? That she doesn't even want to see your face when you're having sex with her,probably so she can imagine it's someone else.

This is brutal.

Well, Fenderguy, it's proven. Her adultery is all your fault.

NOT.

Worndown is dead right. Victim blaming.

I did the pick me dance when I was suspicious of adultery. I read about nicing her back on a different website. Did me great harm. She was committing adultery and did so for 3 more years. We went on all kinds of vacations, antique shopping, walking through tidal pools holding hands, lots of things that were things she wanted to do. She went on Celexis to deal with stress, did all those things and kept fucking her COW AP. Life was good. Husband bending over backwards, Celexis, regular screwing with AP. I thought, if she was committing adultery it must have stopped but it was probably the stress of leading a team on a huge project. Wrong.

Like Worndown says, there are many more of us.

In a marriage not affected by adultery or if a WS do these things. Know the love languages and deliver on them with love. Know the spouses needs and deliver on them with love. Communicate your love languages and needs. Expect them to be delivered with love. Symbiotic.

If there is adultery it is up to the WS to deliver - to earn the right to attempt R - if that is what they really want. If not able to do so or don't want to do so, be honest about it.

You guys may all be right. Maybe my musings are just pie in the sky. Fender's WW did take a lover. There is no question about that. She only ended the A because (surprise) she found out her lover was cheating on her too. She only came clean because she was about to be revealed. She did not voluntarily confess. She has continuously tried to minimize the sex ever since, with statements like "You're wrong if you think the A was about sex." Uh, if the A was not about sex, then why did you repeatedly have sex? And if you could repeatedly have sex during the A, then why can't you with me? You didn't make your AP lube himself up and anonymously fuck you from behind. Why are you doing that to me?

She needs to see her doctor to discuss why she has no sex drive and what she can do about it. (There are LOTS of things that can be done about it if she WANTS to fix this VERY REAL problem.)

Maybe you can go to the doctor with her to discuss it.

She also needs to see an IC to find out specifically why she has no sex drive for you, her husband, yet had an A.

Perhaps you can eventually go to MC to find out why she has no sex drive in your marriage.

It is absolutely unfair for HER to decide FOR you what kind of very vanilla sex you are doomed to have for the rest of your life AND to decide FOR you how often you are able to get it.

Please don’t play the pick me dance. You don’t have to let her make all of the rules.

For some reason I find this thread compelling, perhaps because it has so much resonance with my life. Much of what you describe about her suggests she has profound issues with self esteem. Even the way she presents herself as extremely kind and high performing in public suggests that. And I reckon the rejection of her sexually as she begged you for sex exacerbated her self esteem.

My advice to you about marriage was based on my own experience with a wife who suffers self esteem issues. It was my opinion that part of what was driving her low self esteem was a lack of sincere engagement by me in terms of the emotion of our marriage, so I searched my heart and re-found the things I love in her, and then I set about showing her how I love her through my actions, consistently over time.

But there is a denial element to this thread that is troubling.

Every single day I am faced with the reality that my wife isn’t sexually attracted to me, but she was to him. I told her that, and she says that’s completely not true. That she wishes she could make me believe that the sex was not that important to her during the affair.

I told her it’s just ME that she doesn’t want to act like that with because she’s not attracted to me. That really pissed her off. Then I reminded her of the fact that she happily fucked another man, and she threw back the usual “the appeal of my affair wasn’t sexual! I’m sorry that’s your takeaway, but it’s far from the reality of it!” Then she got mad and went to sleep with one of the kids...

Swap "long distance running" for sex. Back in the days of dating, the two of you used to go for 20-mile runs several times a week, egging each other on to run fast, laughing and having fun. Even after you were married. But at some point the running tapered off to only an occasional slow jog, barely a shuffle, to the end of the driveway and back.

Then, she meets another man. He falsely convinces her that he enjoys talking about some of the same lofty concept stuff she enjoys. Soon they are out running together, maybe not high intensity 20-milers, but at least 10k a couple of times a week. She enjoyed the runs enough that she kept joining him for more runs, and by all appearances she would still be doing this if a third party had not come along and put a stop to it.

Now that she has lost her other running partner, she is back to the occasional grudging shuffle out to the end of the driveway and back with you. You tell her you want more, and she tells you she wants it too and will try harder, but invariably each time you ask, it's the same thing.

She tells you, "I'm sorry, I just don't like running any more. I have zero desire to run. I am physically incapable of running father or faster. This shuffle to the end of the driveway is as much as I will ever be able to do." "But you ran 10k's a couple times a week with that other guy. You are clearly able to run if you want to, and you clearly wanted to run with him, but you don't want to run with me."

"I wish I could make you believe that running with him was not important to me during our affair."

Hmmm. If talking about philosophy was important, and he loved talking about this, it seems you could have achieved that without running 10k's with him a couple of times a week. You weren't forced to run. My takeaway is that you enjoyed the running part enough to keep going back for more running.

"The appeal of my affair wasn’t running! I’m sorry that's your takeaway, but it’s far from the reality of it!"

Hmmm. You chose to go running with him of your own free will. Prior to the affair, you had all but stopped running with me. During the affair, you ran 10k's with him multiple times per week. Since the affair, you have run a 10k with me zero times despite my repeated requests. Clearly, running with him -- as opposed to running with me -- was part of the appeal of the affair. Perhaps not the only appeal, but certainly part of it.

There is a rug-sweeping element to all of this, like she wants you to simply let it go away.

Finally, there is this:

As far as oral sex... none since DDAY. She hasn’t gone down on me since March of 2016, I remember that because it was my birthday.

Have you asked her for oral sex prior to PIV? She may not want you to do oral on her, but she is clearly capable of doing it on you. Has she specifically said "no" to a request?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:18 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

I'm going to put in my 2 cents worth. Other than the affair, you have described someone who is a good wife and mother. Even though she doesn't have a sex drive she is still more than willing to have sex with you, just not the sex in the way you want. So suppose you were to divorce and find a woman who "is hotter than a two dollar pistol" in bed. But out of bed she treats you like dirt. She doesn't care about how the house looks, doesn't cook, hates your family, spends your money like crazy, but she is just totally great in bed. Would you then think your present wife was so bad? Maybe, by your own description, her plate is so full that it has affected her sex drive. My wife and I are very compatible sexually and she has always had a good sex drive.

But we have had times when stress and commitments has affected both of out sex drives. Day to day stress and problems can do that. If she is a healthy women who once enjoyed sex, somewhere along the line it will return.

Now as far as talking to her about things she finds interesting. (This is probably what her AP did) I say this with good intentions. Any man who doesn't talk to his wife about things that are important to her, has already lost just as an important connection as sex. I challenge anyone to totally ignore their wife and over time say it doesn't affect their sex life. I learned a long time ago how to talk to almost anyone. I could talk with a nuclear physicist and I know nothing about nuclear physics. All you have to do is ask questions and listen and ask more questions. People who are interested in something, like talking about it. I have listened to dozens of things, my wife has talked about, that I wasn't interested in. But I listened and ask questions and in the end I had a happy and satisfied wife. Even at my age I have a very good sex life. There is a very good book that was written by John Gray around 1992. It's title is "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus". Find a copy and read it. It has helped a lot of men (and women). It might help you. I do wish you well.