SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

we talked again last night for a few hours. we didnt have time to cover all the points. it got really late.

before we began to discuss the issues left she told me that she still had stuff to tell me. she told me that she accepts the amnesty period (4 days left) is her last chance to tell me. she still insists that all of the details she provided are still true - contact ended a month before reconciliation 1, that there has been no undisclosed contact and that the only instance of contact was a friend saying she had seen him, that she always used condoms, that sex occurred times in total, that it always occurred at his house, that only 2 others definitely knew and 1 probably knew.

then she dropped the bombshell on me. while i was out of town she had this guy come to our house, cook our daughter dinner, eat with them, and then after our daughter went to bed she sat on the couch and talked (only) with him til 4 am. she claims she slept with our daughter and he on the couch. she claims she knew it was wrong as soon as it started. I was in such shock that i told her that i needed time to assimilate this and could we discuss it later.

we began our talk about issues we have but my heart wasn't in it. it was much more pro forma than anything meaningful. we wasted the time we talked because nothing was accomplished.

we went to bed and i had a panic attack.

i took the dog out in the pouring rain for an hour. i came home and wrote a hate filled rant in a notebook which i then hid. the words i wrote were so destructive that i dont think it wise to give them to her.i cried for hours, cursed, and shook uncontrollably.

at 4 am my daughter woke up and saw me on the couch. she asked to go to bed with us. i said ok and came to bed too. i laid there without sleeping for another hour or two. i have had less than 48 minutes sleep.

my wife tried blameshifting and justification again this morning. not for her affair but as a means of deflecting. "why do we only concentrate on my affair when there were so many other problems in our relationship before the affair? concentrating on this puts me always in the blame and wrong and lets you be the one judging and condemning."

i tried to explain, again, how they are two different issues - an affair and a bad marriage. we cant fix the bad marriage without fixing the affair first, that a reconciliation and marriage cant survive having an affair hiding in the background. lets assume we agreed to put the affair and the damage that it did on a back-burner for 6 months. this affair hiding would damage our reconciliation and marriage, the details of the affair coming out later would destroy all of the trust we had built and we would have to start over - if we could. i think i made a hash of it and F'ed it up.

she told me that i have so many conditions and so many rules. I dont think that i do - no contact, remove toxic people/places, commitment to our marriage and reconciliation, and total honesty and transparency, remorse as a condition to beginning reconciliation.

then i told her that there was one more rule - full access to all of OUR accounts(phone, email, skype, drop box, i-cloud, i-tunes, etc). I give my details to her, she gives hers to me.

deleting anything, changing passwords, or secretly creating new accounts would be considered lying and deceptive and would be grounds to end the reconciliation and marriage.

she flipped out. claimed she has deleted everything related to this affair long ago. claimed she isnt doing anything now. claimed that this is about control.

i told her it is about her choosing. secrets, lying, dishonesty, lack of transparency, and the freedom to do whatever she wants versus our agreements to honesty and transparency, our relationship, and me.

she refused and told me that we might as well get a separation then. i told her that it was her choice.

i told her that if she chooses to go in and delete things now and then later provide this information i would consider this a deal breaker as well.

i told her that she could choose her lies and secrecy or us. it was her choice.

then she went to work.

i am a nervous wreck.

please ... someone .. help. tell me what i did right or wrong and why.

help!!

William, it sounds as if you have really been keeping it together well throughout. You have done the work, taken time to process, and spelled out your boundaries and needs distinctly. You have also been faced with a lot of trickle truth, yet another d-day, and actions that don't match up with words. Take some time to just sit with this new information and these new emotions (yes Devil Dog, you have these things called emotions) and let them work naturally. You will have to deal with them at some point or they will grow while "in the box" and come out later bigger, evil, and ravenous. You're in for a long hump...pace yourself.

Your wife had free reign to do as she pleased for a good long while and now there are suddenly rules. To her, you certainly do seem controlling and mean and a tyrant. She has a choice now. Accept the responsibility to be a mother and wife and help you heal or continue to be a free spirit and go clubbing all night and remaining promiscuous. It was a choice she made when she married you but either she thinks she made a mistake or just forgot along the way why she made that decision.

Gently, this is not something that you can fix this is something you can deal with. I get the distinct impression you're still in fix-it mode.

I feel for you, relate to you, and pray for us both.

William.

I am sure that you have read either here on SI or in other forums, that you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. This is specifically one of those times.

These are non-negotiables. And utterly demeaning to ourselves that we have to even ask/demand things like honesty and transparency. But this is part of the reconciliation process---if we choose to go on this path. Trust must be earned, not just waved.

The easiest way to keep yourself from caving is to ask yourself--"Am I willing to follow my wife around like a private investigator for the rest of my life? Can I reconcile without trust?"

You know the answers. Just stay resolute.

@ still pretty upset

thank you!

what is meant by "fix it mode"?

yeah. i suspect you are right and this will be a long hump emotionally. i was always able to shove anything in the box in the past ... but this, i just cant. i invested so much emotionally that it made me vulnerable - cant have a marriage without emotional investment but argh ... the pain when that trust is betrayed is a really intense roller coaster. sometimes i feel fine, others numb, sometimes shake, and sometimes im a ball of rage. it is more difficult because we have a young daughter and have to really control what we do and say around her. :(

@ jb3199

thank you for the encouragement. you are right. sometimes it is time to roll the dice and be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it. but its terrifying!

i received a message from her.

she wants to talk to me tonight. she says that she still has things to tell me but that none are bombshell like last night (telling me this guy was in my house, eating dinner with my daughter, etc that one time .... ARGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!).

she says she is going to finally tell me everything. most of it is small details kind of things, not big. but she wants me to be willing to hear her out.

afterwards she IS willing to give all passwords, account info, etc to me. she will do so tonight. she agrees that deleting stuff to hide results in divorce. she agrees changing pw, secret email accounts, etc not given now or created later result in divorce. she accepts that this is permanent. she didnt ask for it but i will also give her my information and abide by the same rules.

that this morning i told her told choosing not to tell was her choosing her secrets over our daughter, me, and our marriage. she wants me to acknowledge that this is a sign of her choosing us over the secrets.

she is not proud of what happened. she sees this as a chance to recover trust.

she is trusting me to offer support and help her be a better person.

she didnt like that i demanded rather than asked her for the information.

she asks that as she tells me everything that i not hold it against her as per our amnesty. she will tell me everything but doesnt want it used as a weapon against her.

------------

i replied that i agreed.BUT ...

i told her that i might not know everything i wanted to ask now as i heard so this talk doesnt mean the issue is closed. it just means she finally told the truth.

"holding it against her" was a tricky phrase. some things are more painful than others, some take longer to heal, some require more information, some hard to find closure on. i cant promise they wont hurt me. i cant promise to smile and hug her. i cant promise those things. i can only promise that the lies hurt us more than the truth and that we can heal with the truth but not with the lies. i wont view disclosure as her giving me rope to hang her.

i wont rub her face in it but i wont lie and say it doesnt hurt or that they get swept under the carpet. but she should have faith in me. i am still here. still trying.

i asked if there were any BIG bombshells still to come so i could mentally prepare.

------------

she said not really. mostly unpleasant details. she did say that during this time "she had fantasied about women as well and was about to make a huge turn but none of it really happened."

she promises to tell all and write it down. the written down version is going to be the complete and utter truth.

------------

I thanked her.

she expressed deep remorse, shame, guilt, and self loathing throughout the messages. no attempts at blame shifting, denial, justification, etc in the messages. she says she knew it was wrong the entire time, she expects to be punished forever and is not worthy of love or forgiveness. she has been vomiting from the stress and hasn't really eaten in 3 days.

i told her that no one deserves to be punished forever and no one deserves to be loved or forgiven. life isnt purgatory of deserved pain and suffering while love and forgiveness are gifts given from one person to another. life is what we make of it.

-------------------------------------------------

one thing i picked up on in her messages was "she had fantasied about women as well and was about to make a huge turn but none of it really happened." what does she mean "none of it really happened"? do you all believe that it is possible that she has had an EA with a female friend and was getting closer to a PA?

does anything else set your antenna wigging?

do you all feel that she is sincere? did i handle it okay?

Maybe tonight will give you what you need; I hope so. Stay strong and keep your chin up. Eventually this will be in the rear view mirror.

[This message edited by norabird at 9:22 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

my wife tried blameshifting and justification again this morning. not for her affair but as a means of deflecting. "why do we only concentrate on my affair when there were so many other problems in our relationship before the affair? concentrating on this puts me always in the blame and wrong and lets you be the one judging and condemning."

i tried to explain, again, how they are two different issues - an affair and a bad marriage. we cant fix the bad marriage without fixing the affair first, that a reconciliation and marriage cant survive having an affair hiding in the background. lets assume we agreed to put the affair and the damage that it did on a back-burner for 6 months. this affair hiding would damage our reconciliation and marriage, the details of the affair coming out later would destroy all of the trust we had built and we would have to start over - if we could.

Reading that was like reading about my own life. So much so that it was a little weird.

Brother, I'm going to shoot straight with you here. I heard the same crap about separating if I had to have access to all her accounts, etc. Turns out, she and the OM were still hot and heavy. I would strongly caution you to NOT believe her when she says it's over with the OM.

Without transparency, there is no possibility of R. If she "needs her privacy", you need to move on because she is choosing him over you.

[This message edited by RealityStinks at 9:24 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

She has no right to set conditions on your healing.

It's "bargaining" to lighten the consequences (to her).

I don't think she's "there" yet - realizing that the worst consequence is being without *fabulous you*.

Your instincts are right, in suspending discussion of the 'horrible M' (phrase should be trademarked).

Are you capable of not reacting, not engaging with her hoovering efforts to compromise?

I got a bombshell for you, then.

Don't react.

Take down the timeline, the notes, everything that's important. Resist the urge to "show her the way".

If she pokes or prods you for commitment or opinion, tell her you need time to process it all, and stop discussion.

Finish interaction with;

"Is that all?"

Then end it.

On the down-low, find a polygraph facility.

Call them, get familiar with the cost, procedures, and their experience/expertise with infidelity.

Schedule it. On that day,

get her in the car & tell her you're going.

1. - You'll get the famous break-down "parking lot confession" (also needs to be trademarked)

2. - She will scream, fight, and absolutely refuse to go. (you'll know ahead of time what cancellation will cost)

3. - She will eagerly agree, well, maybe "resignedly", but agree.

Your wounded brother is lying there bleeding.

Pull that shrapnel out.

Now.

Knowing the truth now speeds your healing.

the poly is a great idea.

question about it...

think its okay to use it as a threat tonight to get more disclosure (okay but we will schedule a polygraph in the near future to ensure these answers are true)?

i dont think i could actually go through with it though.

honestly, if i need a poly to get the truth than i dont want the relationship.

[This message edited by william at 10:39 AM, January 17th (Friday)]

would you all suggest i contact other man? i cant do it now, too much rage. but in future?

No don't contact other man. He has no intrest in helping you or telling the truth.

I would also ask her if she were willing to take a poly to prove her innocence, and that you are getting the truth. If she balks, or argues their validity, or anything than jumping in and saying sure then let it go. If you warn her she will give you enough info to convince you she is being truthful. Most folks that have had success with Poly's have surprised their spouse with it. You also don't want her spending time trying to figure out how to beat it. They are beatable.

lol, id never even considered the possibility of talking to him.

sorry bad joke. i do sometimes dream about beating him like a drum.

[This message edited by william at 3:06 PM, January 17th (Friday)]

think its okay to use it as a threat tonight to get more disclosure

No.

Threats are reaction.

Threaten nothing.

Cool.

Calm.

Collected.

Fake it till you make it.

Just do.

No warning = No time to prepare.

Just do.

Interesting:

if i need a poly to get the truth than i dont want the relationship

Then why spend any amount of time and emotional capital Reconciling?

If I have to call a medic, I don't want to fight the war...see? (doesn't make sense - it's only an abstraction, an 'ideal', not real)

It may be your own fear speaking here.

A big part of the process is

- can I trust?

- do I have the truth?

A poly is a shortcut. Ripping off the bandaid.

Why deny the use of a tool to get the truth?

I want you to heal and Reconcile.

Your healing will likely take wayyy longer without the truth.

Attempting to R w/out the truth is hugely painful - not to mention the waste of time.

@jjct

wow!

your posts are GOLD!

my wife was in the bathroom puking (nerves) and we had a bad nights sleep due to some issues with my daughter (came in at 4am wanting to sleep with us and then kicked all night) and asked me to do it tomorrow instead. i agreed.i wont postpone it again.

it will be hard to find a poly in that time. ive got not idea how to get a poly in italy. none. i googled it, found nothing useful. im going to ask around. it could take a few days to find that out.

it would have to be some time afterwards, nothing but nothing moves fast in italy.

you did hit the button with "can i trust" and "do i have the truth".

i guess my fear was that doing something like this to her would show her i have little to no trust she has told the truth. i need to self examine on this.

but .. she has shown me that i have reason to have little to no trust. you are right. i hadn't considered it that way.

i do think she has remorse. i also do not think she is there yet.

i also agree that it was bargaining to lighten the consequences for her. i didn't like that.

"Don't react.

Take down the timeline, the notes, everything that's important. Resist the urge to "show her the way".

If she pokes or prods you for commitment or opinion, tell her you need time to process it all, and stop discussion.

Finish interaction with;

"Is that all?"

Then end it."

THIS IS GOLD! this will be exactly how i want to handle it. is it important for me to avoid showing her how much what she is telling me hurt me or ...?

These two quotes have something in common don't they? #1

my fear was that doing something like this to her would show her i have little to no trust she has told the truth.

And rightfully so! That kind of "showing" is an action. You're doing something. If she begrudges you taking action steps to make your recently shattered world safe then...[fill in the blank] that she does not get it, or is not remorseful - either way, her reaction shows you! what you're dealing with! That's a win.

#2

is it important for me to avoid showing her how much what she is telling me hurt me or ...?

True. Avoid showing her your reaction. Your emotional reaction. Cool. Calm. Collected. Remember? It is not an action there - it is a reaction.

Besides -

what human being, beyond the age of 13 or so, needs to be shown how much cheating hurts? Sabe?

No amount of pain demonstration ever won a WS back that I have ever seen on here.

Be a man of action. Not reaction. Ball's in your court.

then she dropped the bombshell on me. while i was out of town she had this guy come to our house, cook our daughter dinner, eat with them, and then after our daughter went to bed she sat on the couch and talked (only) with him til 4 am. she claims she slept with our daughter and he on the couch. she claims she knew it was wrong as soon as it started.

That is unbelievable. It makes me sick. Sorry you're going through this.

Keep listening to jjct. He's giving you some real wisdom.

I came inside of her, she completely panicked and NO ONE is that good of an actress. We discussed a morning after pill but it was not possible due to the difficulties of obtaining it here in Italy (Catholic country). She had her period a few days later but then missed the next one.

Ummm, am I missing something here? She had sex with you, had her period, but got pregnant from the sex before her period?? Sorry, just trying to keep this straight.

If that IS her story, that's just not possible..

it was exactly in the middle of her ovulation period. sorry.

d-day 3 (1 admitted EA, 2 admitted PA, 3 - i cringe to wonder what is still hidden) in a few hours. wish me luck and strength. please.

Stay strong, William. Try to listen without emotion and take it all in without reacting. Don't get sidetracked. Get all the info and then wade through it on your own.

We will all be wishing the best for you. Keep posting.