SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Tim,

I can relate to your post on a few levels. Like you my original dday was ten years ago. I have had three with the latest being almost two years ago. I also have been with my wh a long time. 24 years married and ten years dating before that. We are high school sweethearts. We have two teenagers and a lot to lose if we D. So I also am strongly motivated to work this out. I was really not sure after dday 3 if that was possible. But we had one issue we never addressed in therapy. We tried to but nothing worked. So I decided to address this one issue. The issue for us was that our marriage had turn d sexless. While we had hb the sex never lasted. We had a hard time getting help for this. To make a long story short we switched mc to a sex therapist who also is a mc. He truly helped us with this and I am sorry we never got this addrsssed years ago. We are still struggling in R but things are progressing. I think without this piece fixed the rest would never be fixed. So I understand you wanting to try to fix your ww need for male attention. I wanted to leave no stone unturned and it sounds like you fee the same way. So I would say that you should try especially if she is motivated to want to fix this. One thing I learned in sex therapy is that the initial rip your clothes off feeling does not last longer than 6 months to 2 years. In a long term marriage sex is different, not better or worse just different. Both have their advantages. Perhaps she is craving that new feeling. I know my wh was, and he really needed to know that it is not sustainable nor does losing it mean you are not with the right person. We then had to learn how to have good sex that is scheduled and something we both look forward to.

I truly hope that you can address your remaining issue and think it's good that you identified it. Don't let others make you feel bad about staying--I think everyone gets protective because we all know the pain and don't want anyone to get hurt again. Only you know what's right for you and your family and you can always decide to leave if and when you are ready.

[This message edited by hopeful18 at 4:23 PM, June 19th (Monday)]

Just curious ... Has stress on your W increased recently? Can you or she identify something that caused her to go over the edge? Was going over the edge what she needed to do to realize she has to change?

I agree with you that low self-esteem is at the root of a lot of infidelity, but knowing that doesn't help much. Your W, IMO, has to commit to becoming a high self esteem person, something that is difficult to do in this culture (or perhaps in any culture), especially with her history.

My own beliefs are that it's possible. She is more than her cheating, and we all can be, as Eric Berne said, OK.

I now have people that registered here months ago telling me baseball analogies.

Maybe a little harsh, but, you know, well said. Remember, pundits are talking about the death of expertise....

You can't seriously be surprised or angry with the "divorce her right fucking now" people. They are only reacting to your situation like normal people. Her behavior is reprehensible...disgusting.

But, I get that you want desperately to make this work. With all the psycho-babble you use it is obvious you have spent a good deal of time in counseling and have carefully thought this all out. Pretty much everyone believes that serial cheaters will never quit so your situation is not surprising to most of us. Is it surprising to you? Did you really, really believe she could stay true to you?

Now you have made it clear you want to keep trying to...I don't know...what? What do you want to do? She's not going to change, you're not going to change, so it's seems like a simple matter of you getting used to sharing her. Really, if the sex bothered you all that much you would have already left her so it has to be the lying and threat of emotional intimacy that hurts you. Maybe you can come up with some arrangement whereby she keeps her sexual dalliances discreet and the two of you just live your lives. You have to find a way to be at peace with all of this - maybe going along with it will work for you.

wishing you strength during this time. Hope you find the answers that help you.

I'm really sorry you find yourself here again. Your situation is my biggest fear but I have given myself a boundary that I plan to implement if my wife does cheat again.

I think the biggest thing I have learned is how I used to move the "line in the sand" every time my wife (or most people) forced me to. I don't do that any more.

Ask yourself how many times you've shifted your moral stance for her benefit. Every time you do, it eats at you....I'm guessing.

Your wife knew the damage a new affair would would cause. She had a front row seat 10 years ago and watched what it did to you. With that knowledge, she did it again. (Twice in one day with different men).

We all deserve better than this.

Hi Tim

I believe people can change, but it is alway in them as it's part of there make up. It's like being an alcoholic, even if they are dry they are still an alcoholic. It takes mental strength and measure to keep them from crossing the line.

She can change but she need to want to change for her, not for you, if the change is for you it will not last. If it's for her, because she doesn't want to be that person she has a better chance.

I knew so many young women (age 25 and younger) who seemed addicted to attention when I was young. I don't know if they cheated on their boyfriends, but they sure were flirty and had a lot of male "friends" around.

I learned my lessons about those types early on and never paid much about it later, but I never did see any fix themselves. I was thinking that as they matured they would kind of grow out of it, but from what I've seen here, I'm guessing many don't.

You are no spring chicken, neither am I. In your experience, if it is like mine, you must have noticed that people can change, but rarely do they. Especially long-term core personality stuff.

Look, you are invested, you are kind of happy despite her cheating, at least she tells you the right words, she's sorry and wants to change, and no way you are going to quit her given your current situation.

I am not a big believer in the my daddy made me this way, because I've seen so many with those issues who didn't follow that path.

I guess all you can do us what you think best. I don't know how to fix her, and I'm not sure you're better off without her given your emphasis and what you want in your life, now and future.

Well to be fair, she didn't introduce the it's my dads fault. This was some digging by our therapist into her childhood and he certainly never intended that to be a standalone explanation.

I dont this she is trying to blameshift at all but our childhoods can hold clues.

It is obvious to me that she is messed up in how she responds to male attention. She has also been overweight on and off and when she loses weight and gets attention it doesn't go well.

I guess taking day by day now and working through nrmew anger and triggers.

I know there can be no guarantees but hoping to learn through counseling how to see signs of real changes. Our therapist feels that after first affair she only worked to change behaviors but not who she is. He thinks he can work with her on who she is. We shall see.

Tim

Sorry you are here again. You already know this is a difficult journey. It sounds like you believe in your WW and have already seen a difference in her approach this time around. I hope that continues. I'm glad she is working with an IC. I do believe people can change. I know my WH has. And it sounds like if she makes the changes and does the work, you will have a good chance at a wonderful relationship. You will know if/ when you've had enough.

Best of luck.

Our therapist feels that after first affair she only worked to change behaviors but not who she is.

The goal is not to change who she is. I believe that to be not possible. The goal is to recognize who she is. This alternative goal is better though. She changes her understanding of herself, of who she is, the source of behaviors that are self destructive. This really is the fundamental change that has to occur. That sort of change can lead to changes in behavior, recognition of boundary issues, advanced coping skills.

Should she gain knowledge and understanding of who she is, and what may have lead to her development into that person, she has a good chance of acquiring the skills/tools needed to self monitor, recognize the things that have been precursors to self destructive behaviors, and self intervene to avoid the behavior.

I expect this may have to be a lifelong process for her. And I expect it was the piece that was missing from her previous therapy.

When I found out my husband had several affairs, (all Craigslist hookups) and then found out (3 yrs later) he had an inappropriate friendship with someone, I kind of gave up.

I actually wanted to feel that love again that we had, but I knew it was gone in me. Forever.

I know I'm going to take shit over this- but- I actually talked to my WH about having an open marriage. Like seriously talked about it. I don't want anyone, much less anyone else. Plus it was a way to "give up" on him without getting a divorce and still protecting my integrity. I figured if he's going to cheat anyway, why fight it? I don't believe in love anymore anyway.....

Just a thought. He freaked out when I mentioned it, but I viewed it as an ego syntonic way for me to cope and feel better. It would be on the up and up for him. Frankly I'm never going to partake of any men ever again after he dies, so I told him I'd prefer to not go outside the marriage myself. I'll be abstinent and he can sleep around as much as he wants. But not with me anymore. I'm dead below the waist whenever he's in the same room anyway. My brain can't forget, and I'll never feel safe.

I don't want to divorce- I can keep it good for them (my kids). And I'm sure as hell never going after another man ever again. At least I'd just assume he was always cheating, less pain doncha know if I "ok" it.

Frankly my eggs haven't been in his basket for five years now, maybe even seven..... I'm putting my eggs in other baskets- work, kids, friends, travel, all the stuff I never did because he stopped me......

Dan Savage also says some stuff about "monogamish", although it's not quite the same (Google him).

Can't hurt me if I didn't invest again. The romantic love dollar in my house is not strong, lol. Why invest?

You can be married and even happily reconcile and not let her hurt you again...... I'm convinced this whole romantic love thing is bullshit anyway..... it all passes and the next thing you know you're washing his skid mark panties and hoping he chokes on a piece of meat during dinner. So be happy on your own, and you can even stay married if you want.

Amicable is good. Just know her for who she is.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 6:57 PM, June 19th (Monday)]

Thanks TimelessLove.

I think the therapist refers to being re wired as part of changing who she is. I don't think it's far off from your description of self awareness.

She says she sees herself in therapy in some way the rest of her life which I think is a good thing.

Appreciate some responses that contain hope. I don't have any illusions of a fairy tale but hope for something that can be good.

Hoping to share a bit of day by day progress.

Tim. Stop trying to figure her out or why she is who she is. Demand what you want/need in a marriage partner. Not your job to figure out if or how or why she can get there.

That's her work.

Do your own work. Read up on codependency.

Gently, the hope I offer lies in you getting better, not her.

Welcome back?

Tim... ive been where you are and honestly only you know when you've finally reached the end of your line. I believe the reason why you are still holding on is because you feel hope as long as you feel that keep trying. I don't know what type of deep rooted issues your wife has but I can tell you this she needs to really put in more effort to protect you from her harm that she's inflicting on you. I believe the first time around the counseling or self discovery my not have been as intense and that happens. It happened in my relationship we rugswept and never even went to counseling. Then bam he does it again with full force worse than the first damn time 10 years later and it hurt me bad. So I filed for a legal separation and laid out my expectations for him to save our marriage. He saw that I'm hurt and that I mean business and most of all that I'm at the end of my rope "he has to get this right". I believe once your wife understands that this is not only for herself but for your marriage she will become stronger in setting her boundaries to protect you both. It starts with you though, have you made it clear to her where you are emotionally with all of this?? Some people don't know how good they have it until their good thing is gone.

Hi Tim3167. Given the subject of this site (people recovering from horrific trauma) I think its natural there will be some visceral reactions and projecting in some responses you will get. Some of the best advice I received was to take what you need and leave the rest. One of the other great bits of wisdom that has helped me grow was that anytime some advice bothered me it was worth taking a look at to see what

I am on a similar journey to you in that I did go through this twice, my wife did some pretty twisted stuff and did not need love to be connected to sex, one of the issues was her self-esteem and I did give her that third chance. It's hard to believe it's been six years but we are still married and still working on building our lives together. So please take into account that I believe it is possible (and possibly advisable). I am not advocating a kick her to the curb strategy.

In my case I decided immediately to reconcile. We had a long history, kids and a shared family. This approach does not get recommended here much. But you know, I was different, my W was different and the A was different. Turns out most of it was not really that different and I now think everyone here was right about committing to working on R from the start. I probably would have missed out on some pain if I had given myself some time before I committed and R would probably have progressed faster. For me trying to R and not focusing on my healing is part of what left me completely detached from reality. I think what would have helped me more was to have committed to R at a point in the future but for both me and my W to focus on ourselves (both IC) first, working on the M after we had some IC work completed.

To climb out of the very deep hole I fell into took quite a bit of work and essentially ended up looking just like I said above would have made sense. I worked on me a ton, she on herself some (sounds like your W is working hard so kudos there) and as for the M it took a back seat for a bit until we were both a bit more equipped to deal with it.

Part of the work I had to do turned out to be in the opposite direction of R. I had to see how I could have a happy life if we were to divorce and, lived alone and shared custody. Not the outcome I wanted and turns out that vision, while good, is not as good as where I am today. But until I could see that vision I was not able to work towards a M that would be what I would want AND would be healthy. Without that vision I was way too dependent on the M for my happiness to have the strength to risk losing a M that was not as great as I thought it was.

I've seen on here often quoted that it takes two to five years to heal. I think that tends to be true, but I'm a little slow in this department and I think the time I spent down that hole is a big part of why I'm just a little behind the curve. I hope you consider spending a little less time trying to help your W fix herself and spend some time on you. I honestly believe if you do this openly and honestly it will help you both heal from this as well as give your M a better chance at R.

I'm really sorry you find yourself here again

Your lost is exactly what my biggest fear is.

It really brings home that the wayward needs to do the work or the risk of it happening again is very high.

I don't know your story except what here but to me it sounds like she rug swept by maybe telling herself that she knows better now or now that she has seen the destruction and hurt she caused that she would never do it again but the actual reasons were not discovered therefore leaving her vulnerable to falling into that pattern of thinking again

Therapy should help imho,assuming a good therapist again. I too understand why you don't want to throw that many years away if she has really hit rock bottom and doing the real work now. I get it. I'm not sure I could do it but I really understand why you would want to

I feel like my wh may not be doing enough work to not go down. That rabbit hole again. It scares the shot out of me because I don't think I could do this again nor do I think I would want to.

I really hope she does the work and you can both have a healthy and happy future together.

Tim, I am sorry you are back here again.

There are certainly people on SI who have reconciled after multiple affairs and very LTAs (10 + years even). Both involve very long term repetitive deception and lying which whilst different to what you are going through have similarities.

You are clear you want to give R a go again. Be careful you do not make too many excuses for your wife. You give me the impression that you think if it had been dealt with better the first time around this wouldn't have happened again, that may not be the case.

FOO issues may be part of the reason your wife developed unhealthy coping mechanisms but they are not the cause of her affairs. Our spouses all knew the choices they were making were contrary to the commitment they had made to us. They still chose to deliberately to deceive their BSs. Their FOO issues do not stop them knowing right from wrong and going against it. It is important that they still have to deal with the consequences of their deliberate choices.

OK ... you asked for people to share their experiences. My W had a very risky A that caused her to lose her career and her professional standing and almost lose me and a lot of money she couldn't afford to lose.

It turns out that she had almost totally hidden a side of her filled with self-hate. I sometimes got glimpses of that side, but it just didn't compute - I thought she was wonderful. I admired her. It just didn't make sense for her to hate herself.

My W was destined to breakdown. Since d-day, she's been putting herself back together. She's still a person with an immense range of potentialities (as is everybody), and cheating again is one of them. In putting herself back together, though, she's strengthening the parts of herself that she likes.

Since d-day, she's been processing her self-hate out of her system. The more she processes out, the less likely she is to betray anyone again.

The change is not just behavioral. Rather, when bad things happen, the self-hate circuits in her brain get triggered less and less frequently. They're being replaced by something healthy. One metaphor is that she's rewiring the circuits in her brain. I've seen it happening for 6+ years.

But there's always the danger that she'll revert to archaic behavior if the stress level gets too high. (That's why I asked about new, high stress on your W.)

Two different sex partners within a few hours of each other is really unusual behavior for an adult human being.

One possible explanation has to be some sort of breakdown. After a breakdown, there's likely to be a possibility of rebuilding, so I believe it's possible for you to R.

I'm reporting what I see in my W. My thoghts about your sitch are JMO.

Enough about your W.

How are you doing? What are you doing to process your pain?

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:24 PM, June 20th (Tuesday)]

Well to be fair, she didn't introduce the it's my dads fault. This was some digging by our therapist into her childhood and he certainly never intended that to be a standalone explanation.

And your therapist generally has a better grasp on this than all of the best intended advice here from all of us.

We've found in our situations it is never just one thing that makes someone vulnerable to infidelity. But it is an aspect that needs to be understood, at least by your wife.

Continued therapy may be able to help her develop appropriate coping skills - if you decide to move forward together.

Sending strength.