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ReceivedChaos -

I've read some of your ww posts - I may have even posted on her thread(s). Just full disclosure.

But this is what really stands out in your post:

I have decided that the first step is forgiving her.

WHY?

Why is this what you've "decided" is the first step?

I'd read and pay very close attention to Sisson's post.

I think HEALING is the first step.

As much as I wanted my WH to feel just as awful as I do (I once told my IC I wanted him to hold his face in the pile of sh*t he'd dumped on me, our family, and our M), at the end of the day, it's really up to me - AND ONLY ME - to heal myself. Sure a WS can help and provide support, but they cannot do the deep stuff for my healing. As much as it completely sucks, realizing that I can spend my energy being angry at and focusing on my WS and what a pig he is... OR I can spend my energy helping and healing ME really started to change my game. WH and I are not separated or D. I don't know what's in our future, but I feel better and stronger every day. I can focus on my own life and include WH - or not.

As for forgiveness, I recently read Janis Spring's How Can I Forgive You? It's not limited to forgiving from infidelity, so I felt perfectly comfortable checking it out from my local library. Spring differentiates between cheap and earned forgiveness. She also digs pretty deep into the "steps" for earning forgiveness (which do not include setting up an RA). She also discusses "acceptance", which has the same benefits to the betrayed as "forgiveness", but is done without the offending party earning forgiveness. I found this very helpful. It further pushed me to work on MY side of the street. All of the steps for the offending party to earn forgiveness, are the same steps to rebuild trust. Also, there are plenty of folks here on SI who R, but never "forgive". I think we need to recognize that the definitions can vary. What does forgiveness look like to YOU?

You cannot force your WW to do or be something else. She has to get to those points and places on her own. It completely sucks, but you cannot control her. You can only control you. Sure, you can demand that she do x or y or z (like punishing her), but the reality is that will not heal you. TBH, I don't think it would even help (at least not beyond an immediate "fix" ). All of that energy doesn't really do anything to help you, her or your M. It really just prolongs the pain.

Now, some demands are reasonable. Mine included total honesty and transparency. No more female "friends". Stuff like that. They did not include a tattoo (tho I did get one for myself), or finding a suitable partner for an RA (tho I did have fantasies of that - I've had opportunities for an RA since dday and turns out no matter how PO'd and hurt I am, I still cannot cheat. It's just not in my character).

If you filed for D, you will STILL have to heal yourself. You would still have to figure out how you can find joy in the world. How to trust yourself and others. How to handle triggers. All of it. If you want to D, then D, and work on the healing. If you want to stay in your M, stay in your M while you do the same work. Then see where you and WW are at.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:49 PM, February 16th, 2019 (Saturday)]

We ahve established that her phone needs to be visible at all times at home. She is to verbally out loud explain what she is doing on her phone. It is as my discretion to validate what she is doing on her phone to check to ensure she is not lying.

This sounds like a parent-child dynamic. Something a father would employ after his daughter got caught sneaking out.

You are heading down the R highway without a road map.

You cannot even be sure you have all the info yet to make a decision to R. Are you confident of everything she has told you? If so why? She is an adept and proven liar.

How can you be sure she has only cheated with 2 men? That she “only had sex 4 times?” Because she said so?

She has major issues. And tattoos, some money, and screwing someone else are not going to make them disappear.

Listen to Sisoon.

Does WW still work where the OM work?

6 years? The whole time you were married? Well, after what you've written, for your sake, I hope the next one will be mercifully shorter in length. If she can squeeze it in while this one carries on.

^^^^^^^^^^

Not cool, not necessary and not at all helpful to OP

[This message edited by LostHope8008 at 6:00 PM, February 16th (Saturday)]

Yes I would find a great deal of safety and security with a spouse who had an affair for the length of a marriage and certainly would never think it would happen again.

So you want to be married to someone that lied to you for 2190 days? You want to be married to someone that would willingly hurt you after she saw the hurt it caused you the first time?

I would think you deserve a better wife then that. She has shown you the person that she is. You should believe that. Actions always speak louder then words.

[This message edited by CaliforniaNative at 7:07 PM, February 16th (Saturday)]

I will give you my concerns and thoughts, just for you to consider.

1. Your posts paint you as someone unwilling to divorce. It does not even appear to be a possibility, no matter what she has done. Is there any point you would divorce her?

2. There is a tone of anger in your posts, a kind of "I refuse to lose access to my kids because of what she has done" anger, a coldness that wants to punish rather than cut loose.

3. Unwilling to divorce + full of rage = dangerous domestic situation

Why do I say that?

Because you cannot control her, punish her, treat her like a child, and brand her into "ownership" and proper behavior. It's called abuse. Two wrongs don't make a right. No, the laws and morals do not support you treating her badly because you are furious over your options. I am worried about your mental health. Is she in IC? Are you? You both have a lot of work to do to be healthy people. I'm sorry, I really am. But when someone crushes you and your trust, you do have options--like separation or divorce, etc. I feel that you are going down the road of control because you feel a powerlessness and rage, but trying to control her is not a viable option. It's worrisome.

One more thing: mc is simply not helpful in the immediate time period after an A. You need someone focused on you, not the equity in the damn marriage. IC, please! It will be so helpful for you to have support and someone looking out for you. An mc has different goals and they are not helpful after an affair, not until further down the road. This is just my advice, but it's common advice.

I have re-read your threads and the threads by your WW. By the way, I don't believe we know how you learned about the A. You said that you discovered it. How? What happened then? My hunch is that the A would still be ongoing had you not caught it, n’est-ce pas?

What we do know:

-She has been in a LTA for almost the entirety of your marriage. She has actively lied to you about this for the vast majority of your wedded life. Lying is her “normal”. Her default. Frankly, much of the story that she tells you still feels like a lie.

-The A started literally immediately after the wedding. This is normally the time when a married couple is most deeply in limerent, all-absorbed love. In other words, that is likely the best you will ever get from her – a woman who fucks your friend behind your back. This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that she had a previous A early in your dating relationship, again at a time when people are generally infatuated and obsesses with each other. In other words, it is clear she was never that in love with you.

-The A was with a mutual friend. They say it started after the wedding, but clearly lots of decisions and emotional connections had been in place, probably even during the actual wedding itself.

-The degree of emotional honesty, authenticity, and intimacy that she shared with her AP for almost your entire marriage was greater than with you. He knew the truth of her life. He worked with her and saw her, probably as often or moreso than you did. Since they had no secrets, she was able to share her inner thoughts and feelings via the probably thousands of texts and canoodling conversations they shared. Actions speak louder than words. A person generally shares the greatest emotional intimacy with the man whom she loves the most. You WW says in her thread that you are the only one she has loved, but her actions belie this.

Keep in mind that your WW and the POSOM had plenty of time to get their stories straight and plan things like intercepting your letter to the BOW. I think you should assume that whatever story they are telling you is a lie, concocted to minimize. I think you should also conclude that you did not communicate with the BOW.

To those of us reading your threads, and those of your WW, now that the clearer picture is emerging, we wonder why on earth you two would want to stay together, at all. The magnitude of the lying, coupled with the almost casual way she incorporated her second double life into her reality, shows that she views you with contempt. Contempt. I do not choose that word lightly. No human lies so profoundly, so routinely, so clinically to another human in his/her life unless he/she holds the victim of those lies in contempt. She was way more intimate with POSOM than she ever was with you. She clearly does not view you as a friend. Nobody does that to a friend. From my perspective, she wasn't a wife to you in any real sense.

To me, it’s staggering that you’re even talking. In her threads, your WW has described some of the paradoxical demands that you have placed on her, such as “proving” her fidelity on a going-forward basis, or that she find you a fuck-buddy for your RA. These demands make no sense. They reflect the thinking of a man who is traped in a mental vortex of his own making and will not get out of it.

Gently, my friend, my advice is that you should leave her. There is no quick fix. She could get a tattoo just above the cooch that says "This Cooch Is Property of Received Chaos", and other on her left breast that says "Here Lies the Heart of a Cheating Slut". She could set up a freak session with you and some incredibly hot woman. She could walk into the HR department of her work with a signboard that says: "I'm a cheating slut and I had sex at work with AP, who also works here and who keeps harassing me for sex." None of that is going to fix you.

6+ years of betrayal, and the type of betrayal was especially insidious and cruel -- double betrayal. You should expect at least 6 + years of hard, roller-coaster emotions work. I don't think Caused Chaos has that in her. I think this whole push by her for a quick fix, so you can get over it (as you say in your initial post of this thread), is her wishing to avoid the hard work of R.

You two should commit to being the best co-parents to individuals can be, but you should move on to a life separate from her. I don’t believe she has ever wanted to be exclusive with you. I think you know this in your inner heart, which is why you are placing these seemingly impossible demands on her, creating milestones she cannot fulfill so you have a documented failure. Why dance that dance? Why not leave while your co-parenting abilities remain intact? If you stay, my sense is that the anger and hatred will continue to build until you two hate each other, including her hating you, which will negate your respective abilities to co-parent your children.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:27 AM, February 18th (Monday)]

As far as discovery, I had some lingering trust issues with the first cheating. Every now and then I do check up on WW.

My wife was going to a wedding for a coworker and staying over night in a hotel. She was staying over night, as the wedding was in the city and we live in the suburbs. The night before the wedding, while she showered, I do not know what prompted my suspicions, but I did a pat down on her luggage while she showered. To ensure there were no inappropriate items in her bag. Nothing out of the ordinary. I also elected to count the # of condoms we had. Something I have only done 1 or 2 other times during the course of our relationship.

The next day, I got home from work, WW had already left for the wedding. As I got home, got the kids squared away with dinner, I went ahead to count the # of condoms and noticed one missing. I confront WW via text, and that is when the lies began. I was lied to for 4 days, but I was relentless because he lie was obsurd. She was bunking with a female roommate, that story is verified. She stated she brought it for her female coworker in the event that she might need it. That evening, my WW decided it was appropriate to stay at the wedding, the reception, and overnight at the hotel. I can not verify without a doubt though what she did that evening. OM2 was in attendance to the wedding as well, with his wife. WW stated she told OM2 that I was coming and convinced OM2 to bring his wife as a safe guard to prevent her from sleeping with him. But due to her poor choice in decision to stay at the wedding, it is unsure if WW and OM2 decided to go to an coworker "afterparty" and utilize any room as their "place".

This is what happened with the 1st time WW/OM2 had sex. It was a coworker's wedding. She stayed over night, he did not. They messed around in the her room before, in between, and after the wedding in another coworkers room, but apparently they did not spend the entire night together. She had a female coworker stay in her room, that story is also verify by old messages from 2012.

"Did she write out a timeline then take a polygraph to validate her timeline."

-I did not, but that is a viable idea for potential to verify her story. We did discuss a polygraph early on in discovery, but in the end we nixed it for whatever reason.

"Did she apologized face to face with the wife or so of OM1 and OM2"

-OM1 is no longer in the picture and has not been. He was not married. Went the letter was sent to OM2;s wife, I have WW draft the letter. Part of it was exposing what they did and an apology. I then amended the letter to become anonymous and written from the BS perspective instead of the WW perspective.

"Did she meet with HR to file a complaint against OM1 and OM2"

-OM1 never worked with WW. She has stated that she filed reports on OM2 for mistakes made. Her company has a digital reporting system. I asked her for records of her reports, but she states that she had other people file the reports. Our profession requires that we work in at minimum pairs, if nots quads as a safe guard.

Have her pay for a PI to investigate OM1 and OM2 generally OM types keep at it and can be caught again.

-I have considered that, but more so on WW than OM

Have her confess to your children and her parents and your parents.

-This has been a recent thought. My mother and her mother both know. Unclear if her father knows as WW requested from her mother that she not speak of it to anyone else. Otherwise a decent other handful of people know. It is being considered that she expose herself to the rest of her family. Unfortunately, her brother just went through the same thing last year and might be particularly hard on him.

I see your WW going to work as a big trigger for you can you get the OM fired?

-Not without OM making a large mistake on his part. WW is also pursuing other employment.

Another issue is that it sounds like the OM lives close by so the area you live in may be filled with triggers for you, for example if your kids go to school or sports with the OM kids.

-OM2 does not live near by. But he does live near their work.

Are there mutual friends of OM and you or WW these may have to go.

-Since OM and WW work together, they have a lot of friends that work together. WW does not really socialize outside of work with coworkers. Except obviously OM2.

Also did you get tested for STDs kissing is sex as you can get HPV and as a result oral cancers.

-WW has annual paps, she has the gardisil vaccine, and I believe I saw a negative HPV report. I will be speaking with my primary next follow up in regards to STD testing.

Does your WW have a fetish for people of OM2s ethnicity.

-There is the possibility of that. I have been watching WW in public and its possible that she "glances/eyes up/stares" at OM2's ethnicity more so than others. She denies it.

Did she do things with OM2 or OM1 she has not and will not do with you?

-OM1, no. OM2, yes. Which does make it hard for her to do the same things now knowing she never wanted to do things for me before all this.

[This message edited by ReceivedChaos at 8:49 AM, February 18th (Monday)]

I see that you spoke to his wife over the phone,but you're not certain it was actually his wife. I highly suggest you call his wife directly,and verify it was her,and she knows. Especially since your wife still works with him. It would be unusual if she hadn't told him about the letter,so he could intercept it. It's also common for the AP to have a friend pretend to be their spouse,so their actual spouse never knows.

Another thing that makes me think his wife doesn't know...she told OM to bring his wife to the wedding so she wouldn't be tempted. First,all kind of red flags there. One,she shouldn't be speaking to him,at all. Two, if she needs his wife around so she doesn't have sex with om, then she's nowhere near safe. And three, I dont see an ow ever,EVER, wanting to be around the BS of their AP in a public setting,going so far as to arrange for the BS to be there, because you never really know how that BS will react to seeing the AP. She could have yelled. She could have publicly outed the affair and completely humiliated your wife. It was a huge risk.

Sorry. I dont think you have the truth here.

I also highly recommend a polygraph.

I also think you might consider testing the kids. While this particular OM is of a different race, your wife has cheated with two men that you know of. There very well may be more.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:46 AM, February 18th (Monday)]

Sisoon: Thank you for the articles. I will be going through them over the next couple of days. Sharing with the WW. And hopefully get on the right track and making sense of the chaos.

Butforthegrace: I have questioned WW in regards to the fact, if I had not found out, what were the chances of the A to rekindle itself. The way I discovered it appears to make that statement true in regard that the affair was starting to restart. Her timeline shows that she went 1-1.5 years without any physical contact. Then the same month of discovery and a couple months before discovery, she admits to several instances of allow OM2 to kiss and touch WW at work. To me it almost appeared that their relationship was ramping back up after a short hiatus between 2013-2015 where there was minimal physical contact.

A timeline was drafted, but it is an extremely vague timeline as best. Narrowed down to years and as short and non descript as "2013-2014: possibly sexting, no touching" etc. WW states that she doesn't remember a lot of it due to its overall length. She is unable to give me any contexts of what her text messages were like while they continued their "soft" affair.

The polygraph is added on the to-do list so I can verify her storyline.

My only fear is what are the chances/rates of false negatives/positives?

I would be interested in hearing peoples' experiences regarding polygraph tests in this kind of situation.

An attempt was made to try to recover deleted messages from her old phone, but that was not possible with the software I have.

[This message edited by ReceivedChaos at 1:31 PM, February 18th (Monday)]

re - polygraph

I asked my wife to take a polygraph some years ago. She passed clearly and completely.

This result helped our marriage. But if I'm honest, I still have doubts, maybe irrationally. I think what it is, when trust is shattered I don't know that you can ever put the broken vase back together again. Our marriage isn't bad, but you know.

The mechanics of it - you should expect to provide about 3 clear, simple questions that can be answered yes/no.

I think in your case where there appears to be lots of unknowns in your wife's behaviour, a polygraph might be helpful.

You might keep in mind there are lots of people here and at other infidelity sites that don't believe polygraph tests are accurate or provide any value.

Also this thought unsettles me, ask yourself "What kind of marriage do I have where I have to ask my wife to take a polygraph test"?

I have never understood that line of thought. "What kind of marriage do I have if I have to ask my wife to take a polygraph?" As if the polygraph is just TOO much. You have the kind of marriage in which your wife spread her legs,repeatedly,for another man. Blunt. Harsh. But true. The polygraph is simply a tool to get to the truth,because the cheating spouse has proven they have zero problem lying to you. And it gives you a foundation of the truth, to rebuild a new marriage.

Manu,many BS here have had their spouse take a polygraph. In the cases where the spouse failed, almost every single time,the BS posts, later, that the WS was indeed still lying, and the BS either found evidence that they were still lying,or the WS confessed to it.

Carrying on an active EA/PA with another man 6+ years into the marriage (of about 7+ years), discovered when she brought a condom to a hotel where she would be able to create an opportunity for sex with him. Did sex stuff with AP that was denied the BH. Your trust level was so low that you felt you needed to check on these things in the first place.

I have questioned WW in regards to the fact, if I had not found out, what were the chances of the A to rekindle itself.

I think "rekindle" is a malapropism here. The A was ongoing. Perhaps there had been a gap in time since full penetrative PIV sex took place (though I suspect she is lying about that), but nevertheless they were carrying on an active, ongoing A when you caught her.

And you're trying to figure out ways to "get over it".

By the way, I think you have to assume that BOW of OM2 was never told about the A. You have no way of verifying that she was told, and your WW has lied to you, or simply refused to disclose to you, about virtually every other aspect of this A.

Everybody heals differently. If you wish to find a path to R with this woman, I wish you luck.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:09 AM, February 19th (Tuesday)]

OP, arranging the polygraph, if you can adopt a no-nonense approach that Hellfire describes in her post that's for the best to get the test done. And I think a lot of the good advice you've received in this thread is to tell you to take charge to get out of infidelity.

I think though that arranging a polygraph is a big deal. I'd hesitate to describe it as just a tool. I'm saying evaluate your marriage and be sure it's worth saving if the trust is so bad you're having to arrange a polygraph for your spouse.

When I arranged a polygraph for my wife I was full of indignation and well, wrath. I'd had enough bullshit.

Partly though because like it or not we associate polygraphs with criminal behaviour, and partly because in my case my wife passed the test, it's a crappy, guilty memory. Yes my wife should feel guilty for her crappy behaviour that 'brought this on', but for me it's there.

Also, it's something you're likely not going to want to share with others, so it becomes yet another tawdry secret in your marriage. Pushing it even further into abnormal territory.

According to my WW, only Kissing/touching/inappropriate conversations/sexting occurred for years 2-6 of our marriage.

Gently, and you believe this why? Two adults in an A that have physical access to each other dont not have sex. ESPECIALLY if they've already had sex.

The #1 thing to get into your head is that WSes, even ones that want to R, minimize and lie to protect themselves and to minimize pain to their BS.

I don't think you can reconcile until you know exactly what you're reconciling.

You reeeeeally need to polygraph her. Once that is done, I think you'll have an easier time in R, as it's a relief to finally "know"

Before you both do MC and try to reconcile you both need IC.

Although the anger stage is part of the process, it can get out of hand.

Having your wife getting a tattoo to represent the affairs will keep them front and center for other of you.

Having a RA will also do the same.

With as much anger as you have and what you are asking, a D may be best.

I get wanting to see your kids everyday is a good thing but not if you are filled with anger and hate.

Read Owninfitnow posts. They are pretty good.

Do not be your own worst enemy.

I wish you the best as you try to reconcile.

I hope you are making the right choice. I hope your wife becomes monogamous and puts your marriage and you first.