SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not trying to R anymore - just tying to get through each day until I can leave...but the answer to your question is yes. Absolutely.

My WH has admitted to himself he has severe depression (confirmed by therapist) but due to his work situation he would be unemployed if he decided to treat it with meds. While he can work with untreated depression it is the potential side effects from the meds that would disqualify him - so his choice is to either lose his job (and go into the world after 20 years w/basically few transferable skills) or continue onto retirement eligibility in another 11 years and then deal with it. I feel little empathy for him in most regards but in this situation, I do as his options all suck. (I won't get into it but will say that he is not making the repercussions up and his job is so strange and so specialized that it really carries with it very few - honestly like 1 - transferable skill I can think of and the financial implications are massive - think 75%+ pay cut type implications).

That being said, the A and all the attention, secrecy, and general excitement created by having an A with your co-worker (whose H/the OBS also works closely with both of you) made him feel "alive" whereas the day to day life he was leading was boring and depressing. He often had major bouts of anhedonia (sp?) (one of the primary symptoms of depression - the loss of interest in things that you used to enjoy coupled with feelings of "all this is pointless" etc) - if you do reading about that specific aspect of depression it can be really debilitating, and for him it has been.

He has been "faking it" for a long time and has become more and more reliant on self-medicating with alcohol as time has gone by. This has not interfered with his work as he is careful not to overdrink on nights before he works, but it's a slow and steady pace every night. When he has a day off the next day sometimes he drinks with reckless abandon and sometimes not, but every day he has at least 3 drinks over the course of 8 hours between coming home and having to go to bed. Of course alcohol is a depressant, which IMO makes things worse most days, but he won't stop doing it.

Personally I think he has larger issues than severe depression, which often is itself a symptom or a co-issue with other personality or mood disorders, but my opinion on that only matters to me in that I have found that believing his issues are much greater have made it easier for me to distance myself from him. I still miss that happy guy I met and had many great years with but I realize now that I was part of a fantasy-excitement that eventually wore off and he became bored with me as I didn't alleviate his feelings of "nothing matters" anymore. Once the "shine" wore off of me I became just another person or activity in his life that he didn't want to deal with. Spending time with me isn't enough - it has to be something else that excites him otherwise I am just here, in the way at worst, or someone to break of the monotony of being home alone at best. Me - my personal value to him - is minimal. Accepting that has been really hard and very lonely (hence my username).

So, IMO, without treatment (be it via drugs or by a change in lifestyle) which will only come via acceptance of the underlying depression AND a DESIRE to change it - find a way to make things better on part of the depressed person - you will likely find yourself repeating patterns over and over and over again. My WH won't make the decision to get help because of his work situation, and without that "we" are endlessly stuck in this cycle, which means that I have no choice but to get out.

I also wanted to address this as I completely agree:

IMO, there are lots of ways one can try to "self-soothe" or distract from inner pain -- alcohol, video games, smoking/vaping, other drugs, gambling, food, etc.

If you were to remove "other drug" and substitute affairs and porn for that, my WH ticks all the boxes. He took up smoking cigarettes in his 30s...who does that?!?! He admits that he used to play video games for hours on end before we met and has gone back to that now, albeit not to the same extent, and for awhile they provided him with excitement but I can see now that it is getting boring for him...that he sees it as just a waste of time...

Affairs are exciting and ego boosting. WH has admitted that he got a bit of a high knowing that his AP via her A threatened to ruin her whole family "for him" - the fact he used to be good friends with her H (the OBS knows now so their friendship is over) he did not like, so he actively avoided that in his head and said that in the moment he felt no concern for him, but would later feel "very bad about it" so he just blocked all thoughts of him out of his head, even seeing him everyday at work. All this took a LOT of energy, thus making his life more exciting, even if some of the excitement was negative. He felt "alive" - so how could I ever compete with that?

Answer - I can't. No one can.

Empathy is a gift and a bloody curse. How do you hold your WS accountable knowing that they weren’t well?

It is a gift and a curse. There are times I wish I could hate him as it would be easier - but I don't have it in me (and in the long run I'm happy about that). As far as holding him accountable - I simply don't care about what has happened - I can't change that - but the future...that's on him. Holding him accountable made him angry - at me - I became the bad guy in his head and to this day I think most of the time he looks at me with disdain and doesn't even know why...the reason is, when he looks at me he sees the person I know him to be, and I am a constant reminder of what a shit show he really is, and he doesn't like it. Accountability for me meant him working on changing him, and since he has convinced himself he needs meds to change that, and he can't take them, there is no where to go but down...and I think that's crux of it. Is your WH willing to do whatever it takes for HIMSELF (NOT FOR YOU) to make his life better? If not, or if its inconsistent at best, then there isn't much hope IMO.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 10:24 AM, January 13th (Monday)]

My FWW lost her mother days before my so called 'friend' started to increased the frequency of his messages to her and ultimately seemed to "be there for her".

I saw the increase in their correspondance and even got jealous but chose not to be 'a dick' and point out what I saw as unacceptable behaviour, choosing to see it as plutonic support from a friend.

They eventually slept togather 2 weeks later.

If only I'd been 'a dick'.

She's struggled with depression and anxiety for years prior to losing her mum and our relationiship of 30 years had gotten to the point where communication problems made it really easy to see someone else as offering a less pressured environment with none of the baggage that we'd created over our lifetime together.

I had cheated and lied about it for 10 years, causing doubt and fear that was never resolved until she confessed her A to me, allowing me to come clean and get everything out on the table.

I don't take responsibility for her A but I do take responsibility for my part in our poor communication and the lie that I told that enabled some of these situations to become something they shouldn't have.

Depression, loss of self and the loss of her mum caused an extreme reaction that was so out of character that it's still hard to believe that she could do anything like that and I'm now struggling with depression, anxiety and loss of self as a result.

IMO, there are lots of ways one can try to "self-soothe" or distract from inner pain -- alcohol, video games, smoking/vaping, other drugs, gambling, food, etc.

My WH has ALWAYS been one to pursue obsessive means of self-soothing. And in the past, they were usually benign-ish things like computer games, or even ones like throwing himself into art of music, that didn't seem negative, even if they were excessive. These have often been a source of tension.

I failed to recognize just how far he had spiraled this time, until it was too late, and his "friendship" with her was what he was using to self-soothe.

It doesn't excuse what he did. It was still 100% a choice that he made. But he was definitely in crisis, and he has a history of self-sabotage and making terrible choices at his lowest points. Just never this one before, and he'd hadn't been that low in the past 18 years.

Thisissolonely,

So, IMO, without treatment (be it via drugs or by a change in lifestyle) which will only come via acceptance of the underlying depression AND a DESIRE to change it - find a way to make things better on part of the depressed person - you will likely find yourself repeating patterns over and over and over again.

So true.

It took me many months of IC/MC to actually accept that I was depressed. I mean, I wasn't laying on the couch doing nothing all day, I wasn't trying to kill myself. That is what I thought depression was. Actually recognizing and accepting there was a problem was the first small step. Once I did that I awoke to my BW actually being in my corner trying to help me.

How many others are too proud, or lost in their own misery, to see that they have a problem.

I attribute my W's A to some sort of illness. Heart-sick, soul-sick, mentally ill, side effect of CSA, side effect of co-d choices she made, nervous breakdown - it doesn't matter what it's called. It just seemed obvious to me that she was ill.

So it also seemed obvious to me that the A and its aftermath were the 'worse' of 'for better or worse' and the 'sickness' of 'in sickness and in health.'

That stream of thought helped me accept what had happened. I didn't have to understand it. I just had to accept it.

Oh - and I had to decide what I was going to do, now that I was dumped into this shit.

Just as I was sure my W was somehow 'sick,' I was sure she was committed to getting well, and I was pretty sure I'd like her if she did get well.

So I stayed conditionally - I gave myself permission to leave if she stopped healing herself or if we hit an issue we couldn't resolve.

A psychiatrist gave a seminar about this. He said black and white thinking is how these people live. Everything is either wonderful or so horrible they are overwhelmed. They have difficulty living with the middle, which is where those of us with good mental health live. We have the same stressors but better ways of dealing with them.

It is also VERY minute to minute thinking. Long term be damned.

My WH has admitted this - and once I realized what that was, I notice it ALL THE TIME with him. He actually said to me that when he would break off the A, and then do some of the things I had said I wanted/needed, and I was still not 100% elated in that moment, he would think "fuck it - there is nothing I can do to make her happy" and give up/go back to the excitement of the A. In his case the AP was begging for his return so I'm sure the reunification every time he did this was filled with I love yous and you are the greatest and I can't live without you etc which was such a massive ego boost to him. Compare that to my "I can't believe you did this to us and I am struggling to believe anything you say" and it was an easy choice IN THE MOMENT for him. Black - I was upset and hurt and angry - made him feel shitty about himself (as he should have). White - she loved him no matter how many times he went back to me, cut her off, ignored her, controlled her - he was perfect to her - made him feel like the greatest guy on Earth and that to her he was worth all this misery. There was zero middle ground.

Not too long ago I said something about black and white thinking to my WH and he responded "what is it like to be normal?" His comment was half sarcasm and half genuine questioning. He's not normal and knows it, and I think is actually resentful of my being a lot more grounded than he is. Granted, he will NOT look at his FOO and see that so much of his issues are rooted in that whole mess. He protects his parents at all costs (one of which he is not close with at all as that man has never made my WH a priority in his life, ever).

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 11:28 AM, January 13th (Monday)]

Lots of differences were revealed between the way I think and the way my WS thinks (or used to think). The black and white part isn't anything I experience normally but certainly with the trauma of infidelity I experienced it in low moments.

What’s clear is that his mental health is fragile and he needs to have a number of strategies in place to deal with his low moods before it consumes him to self destruct again.

This was a part of our healing journey for sure. He was way more fragile than I knew and during the aftermath of d-day it ebbed and flowed. It would come out in weird ways mostly in peculiar streams of thought that let me know something was way off. The disassociation is serious and caused that fragility. He did a lot of hard work and had to take himself to the brink with his IC who met with him very frequently to teach him how to be safe before going into his past and helping heal the earliest chasms that formed and allowed the adult to break. After that he had to test himself and learn to be okay as an adult. Once that happened, wallah! He found his empathy again, he no longer felt entitled, he could see his former self (pre and post d-day) so very clearly and knew what he had done after d-day that hurt me so badly and prevented R.

I think this is why it is so important to stick to boundaries and not allow ourselves to get sucked into fixing anybody but ourselves. I cannot fix his issues - they are way more profound than I can handle and I needed all my energy to fix me. The more I felt sorry for him the worse it got for me. It just didn't work and it highlighted the old M paradigm that needed to go away - the co-dependency if you will.

Mental and emotional illness are real but just like I cannot fix a broken bone, I cannot fix a broken psyche. Boundaries ended up being the best thing I could do for both of us. It was hard because I understood why and yet I had to stay within my comfort zone for healing.

I can also add my WW to the list of those who definitely attributes mental illness (depression) as a reason for her affair. In her early explanations she would say, "I was in a really low place." And she was. She met her AP through a diversion she took on my taking on more responsibility for her job. In my opinion, she did this to divert from her life. She wasn't contributing at home for a while.

I too have struggled with anxiety and depression. While a mental health crisis does not lead to an affair, it seems to make it easier for some people to enable themselves and justify their initial moves. For my WW, the affair offered a toxic dose of feel-good chemicals that kept her going back for more.

After DD, I realized my W had been spiraling for some time. I wish that an affair was not her rock bottom, but I hope it will be moving forward.

Sisoon - my husband says almost verbatim what you just said. He said it was obvious even before the A that I was sick and for a long time after. Though, I have to say, sometimes I feel like it glosses over my decisions. He says that I took accountability on my own for them, he doesn't have to force accountability. I think that can be a difference as well. If your wife just said what you said then honestly she might would never have been considered safe or healed. So, I think the difference would be between a BS understanding all aspects of it, versus a WS trying to use those things as a form of scapegoating.

I’m still new to this but I believe my WH PTSD as a large contributing factor. He was in a self destructive mode, he was isolated (we live in separate states). He had convinced himself he was better off alone. He equated himself to cancer, he was going to take everyone around him out too so it was best I left him. He knew I wouldn’t leave him unless he did something unforgivable. His first brief affair didn’t do it so he had his second one. He was suicidal. When I found out about A #2 is when he admitted that after I had D him and he knew Daughter and I were ok he was going to kill him self.

We are still in separate States so this is hard. His mental health does not give him a free pass. He made conscious decisions. When he comes home for good this summer then we will be able to start trying to repair the damage done. I’m just trying to hold on until then. The last few days have been very difficult because he’s starting to isolate again and he’s angry. That anger is carrying over into our conversations. Honestly, I think he might be bipolar. He seems to be cycling.

Prideandpain, firstly I'm so sorry to hear what you have both been through. This comment is exactly why I'm searching for thoughts on this as I find understanding it as best I can soothing.

'Anyway my understanding of her whys has helped in a rational way even though my betrayal trauma has affected me enormously.'

I totally agree that it's his job to separate his mental health and his character flaws. I do have to step away from that.

[This message edited by Dragonfly123 at 2:57 PM, January 13th (Monday)]

Thisissolonely so much of your posts resonates with me. Particularly the lack of joy your WH gets from the world. This was exactly how my WH described himself last year. He talked about not wanting to wake up as he couldn't feel joy in anything. Even being with the children was just a chore and that caused him even more distress and self loathing, it was a vicious cycle. He's working hard on finding happiness in himself and in the small things and I think that's a new way of thinking for him. He has made it clear that he is doing this for himself first and foremost which I'm happy to hear. TISL I can't imagine how painful it must be for you.

I’m going to paraphrase a saying. Your marriage is only as healthy as it’s unhealthy spouse. I think that’s why it is so hard sometimes to reconcile. If you are dealing with someone who has chronic, serious self-esteem issues they are so mired down in misery they can’t do anything except exist. Their affairs are the only things they can control. How weird and how sad is that? It isn’t that they don’t love you. They don’t love anything. Childhoods that are chaotic and toxic are so poisonous to children that they bring all of it into their adult lives. It’s hanging on by their fingernails. You can’t fix this. Only your spouse can and that means intense therapy.

Thank you for all your replies. I've just typed out a ton of thoughts on this then accidentally deleted them all . I'm going to come back to it tomorrow.

I'm so sorry but no! Just no. All of this seems like a cop out. Depression does come in many forms but cheating is a choice. How in the hell does he explain he was too depressed to confide in his wife but lay down with another woman multiple times and call it depression? Disassociation? Mid life crisis? He was sick with the flu? And any other lame excuse? To me it seems putting a name on it to make myself feel ok with what was a choice. We are not suppose to be second when they dont feel good!

I'm so sorry but no! Just no. All of this seems like a cop out. Depression does come in many forms but cheating is a choice. How in the hell does he explain he was too depressed to confide in his wife but lay down with another woman multiple times and call it depression? Disassociation? Mid life crisis? He was sick with the flu? And any other lame excuse? To me it seems putting a name on it to make myself feel ok with what was a choice. We are not suppose to be second when they dont feel good!

Madforhealing, for me understanding his mental health crisis at the time of the affair is important as it puts what happened to my family into context. Just to be clear my WH has NEVER used his alcoholism or his mental state as an excuse for his cheating. He only admitted to being ill six months after the affair had finished, his whole family and I were begging him to seek help while he was engaged in his affair. We all could see he was not the same man. I’m the first to say he should have confided in me, I was his wife. He shouldn’t have fucked some dodgy controlling, narcissist and looked to her to get the ego strokes he so clearly needed BUT HE DID. I now have to deal with that and for me really exploring the background behind his actions is the way we may be able to protect our family in the future.

Some mental issues are avoidable (mine was), and can provide context and good information in some of the things the person needs to do differently in their life.

However, my depression played a part in me going down the affair rabbit hole. I went out looking for all the ego stroking, the rush of the illicit. I used my AP for my own ends

And this is where we are at. My WH has a duty of care to himself and his family to seek out how he can avoid this rabbit hole again. I agree Hikingout and I hope my WH (as he gets better) will start to look carefully at the things he could have done differently to avoid the mess we’re in.

It doesn’t excuse what he did. It was still 100% a choice that he made. But he was definitely in crisis, and he has a history of self-sabotage and making terrible choices at his lowest points.

It’s only now as I am not in crisis myself, (the crisis I was in as a consequence of HIS actions), that I can look back to those affair months and see just how poorly my WH was. PTSD and all it’s symptoms were blocking my rational thought. He was self destructing and self sabotaging. Now if I’m to build my family and marriage up I need to ensure he has the tool kit to be able to avoid this again. I will only repair my broken marriage if the children and I are safe.

That stream of thought helped me accept what had happened. I didn't have to understand it. I just had to accept it.

Sisoon acceptance is a much better word for me than forgiveness. I look at my WH now, as he runs around taking care of his family, loving us all in the best way he can, fighting to become well and I know I’ll never forgive him for the damage he caused us, for all those tears we shed, for the pain and confusion my children felt when he walked out on us but I can accept it and accepting what happened in light of his illness is comforting to me. I don’t see black and white, I don’t see good and bad people, I see good people making bad decisions, I see endless shades of grey, which does help in this.

I think this is why it is so important to stick to boundaries and not allow ourselves to get sucked into fixing anybody but ourselves.

I survived… absolutely, I spent a long time last year begging, pleading, cajoling, shouting at my WH to get some help. I was extremely frightened for him but I then learnt to take a step back and deal with me and me and the children alone. I’m there to support him and I offer advice if I’ve read up on something that may help his journey but otherwise this is HIS job.

I wish that an affair was not her rock bottom, but I hope it will be moving forward.

Fatheroftwo… I hope so too for you. My WH unfortunately hit rock bottom 6 months after his affair finished after months of self loathing. It’s not easy to watch and the repercussions are far reaching.

How many others are too proud, or lost in their own misery, to see that they have a problem.

So many of the stories on her make me question depression in the background. The description in the Frank Pittman article on romantic infidelity makes the link clear. But I think so many WS don’t see it or won’t, pride, fear, depths of misery whatever their reason it’s tragic in the damage it does to families.

“Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate—someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own—is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner.” Frank Pittman

Depression, loss of self and the loss of her mum caused an extreme reaction that was so out of character that it's still hard to believe that she could do anything like that and I'm now struggling with depression, anxiety and loss of self as a result.

Newman... And therein lies the rub. Our WS are in pain and instead of facing that pain head on they transfer it to those they are supposed to love.

They pass the pain on and that heartbreaking.

In retrospect my WH was probably depressed during his A. Self employed contractor who's business tanked during the economy and caused a lot of financial pressure and he found himself with a lot of free time he didn't know how to occupy. It did quite a number on his alpha male pride.

However - none of that made him cheat. He had options of how to cope. Cheating was but one.

Post DDays now I've been suffering and had to go on freaking Rx. And ya know - not once have I thought "hey Chaos - you are depressed - why not go have an affair to boost your bruised ego".

While Depression is real and valid and can be crippling it is not an excuse for an affair. You can't control your feelings and emotions - they are yours. You can and should control your actions - they are a choice. Anyone using depression [or alcoholism, addiction, etc.] as one has a lot of work to do.

While Depression is real and valid and can be crippling it is not an excuse for an affair. You can't control your feelings and emotions - they are yours. You can and should control your actions - they are a choice. Anyone using depression [or alcoholism, addiction, etc.] as one has a lot of work to do.

Chaos I totally and utterly agree that it isn't an excuse but in my situation and others it is 'context' for what happened. Did he cope with the depression in the way he should have done? NO. Did he pass the pain onto those who loved him? Yes. Did he do a terrible thing? YES, I suffered and still do. Was he in his right mind? Who knows? I'm not him, I cope entirely differently with crisis in my life. However, I don't believe that my WH would have cheated IF he hadn't been ill (and he was ill) and that's the bottom line. So if we are to move forward (I'm separated but I'm watching and waiting to see how he moves forward), then I need to know that he fully understands what led him to that point, so that I know my family and I are safe from his mental fragility in future. Again I haven't read anyone here who has said it's an excuse. My WH has NEVER used it as an excuse, in fact he's always said all the things, that on here that point towards a man who 'gets it' even though in my mind the juries out on that one!

ETA I was extremely nervous about posting about this topic as I know that it looks like I'm trying to excuse his behaviour, I'm truly not, not for one minute. But I think mental health and it's links to infidelity is a huge elephant in the room. I have always been surprised that there isn't a thread in I can relate for betrayed whose spouses are clearly showing signs of depression/alcoholism etc and how to support them through.

[This message edited by Dragonfly123 at 7:44 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Dragonfly - this:

then I need to know that he fully understands what led him to that point, so that I know my family and I are safe from his mental fragility in future.

It is in your best interest to protect yourself from him. That doesn't preclude R. In fact it may facilitate a better R. In my case I held the same concern. During the A and in its aftermath the behaviors scared me. He was not emotionally healthy and I saw how much his survival mechanism was in control. So I took control of me. I separated finances AND did a post nup. Now that he is healthy he is so grateful that I did it and that I have the protection I need. He is also grateful I didn't enable him any longer.

Rather than concentrate on the psychological issues as a cause, concentrate on the emotional, financial and physical well being of you. He'll come along - or he won't and you'll know your next step. But first get yourself protected.

ETA: BTW, I know it is hard to accept that we have to protect ourselves from the very person we thought had our back and partnered with us in life. But now we know they are capable of not having our back. So it is good for us to recognize it and take the steps we need.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 7:49 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)]