SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi greenirisheyes,

I will not call your husband names, as I do not know him, but I would find this absolutely unacceptable! My husband also met a skank, (and that is actually a kind term for her,) through a niche hobby that he is very serious about. They got together in his hotel room at conventions for the hobby over the course of about 2 years and then had an online emotional affair online until I caught them a month ago. I would go absolutely bolistic if I saw pictures of her on his social media! In fact, I recently looked through all of his old Facebook posts to make sure she was not in there. An absolute ground rule for me is that she needs to be absoltutely OUT of his life. This means not attending hobby conventions if she is going to be there and certainly no social media posts. H says that he is relieved to be done with her and dreads dealing with her in any way. Anything less would be absolutely unacceptable to me!

I am outraged on your behalf!! This skank violated you and your family.

He's an asswhole and he's stupid.

Thank you all so much for your input and support, truly.

My husband and I sat down and talked for hours yesterday. One of the things I did, was read him my thread and every one of your responses. Your responses had a profound affect on him. I stopped half way through when I saw his head hanging down and asked if he wanted me to continue. He said, yes.

After I had finished reading your responses, I told him that these were real people who had experienced what I had gone through and knew what it did to you. He said he understood and realized he needed to try to view things from my perspective more often. For the first time since he posted that video, he seemed genuinely contrite and pained that it had hurt me. I honestly think listening to all your comments made him realize for the first time that I’m not over-reacting, but that he isn’t being thoughtful and supportive enough.

I also told him that it’s not acceptable for him to make me feel that I’m not doing recovery “right”, or getting over it “fast enough”. Even though I don’t accept his judgements, they create anxiety in me and he doesn’t have the right to do that.

He agreed to go into therapy, not marital, but individual, which he has never done. I’ve been in individual therapy for years, and together we had gone to marital therapy. I told him he needs to figure out ways to deal with his passive-aggressiveness and manipulation so they don’t impact me so severely. He agreed.

Like GMC said though, I have to wonder about his ability to do the dig deep at his age. Time will tell. For me, my concern is I’m spending more time in a relationship that may be untenable for me in the long term. I am less than two years from retirement, but if I leave him, I will have to continue working for the foreseeable future, so I’ve got a lot riding on this. I will wait and watch for now to see how he handles his new awareness and commitments. As we all know, actions speak louder than words.

So, thank you all again for your time and concern. You are an amazing group of people. I have continued to read here since 2000, but I don’t offer advice very often, because while I firmly believe in paying it forward, the things I would share are often already shared by the amazing contributors on this board. Only occasionally do I feel I have something to contribute that hasn’t already been said, and then, I post. I am very grateful I had a place to go to get understanding and perspective.

Happy Mother’s Day to the Mom’s out there. I hope you have an awesome day.

Great idea reading the responses! I’m happy to hear about the progress. Hopefully it was just a bad decision on his part.

Thanksgiving: Thank you, but as you mentioned earlier, he DID reset the timeline to a point and pushed my progress back somewhat. I’m feeling angry and resentful about the things he shared with her and the access to my life he gave her. Things I felt were long ago dealt with and put away. I suspect we’re going to have a rocky few months ahead of us regardless of what we both do.

Also, I’m resentful that here we are twenty fucking years later and still dealing with this shit. TWENTY YEARS LATER!!! Not days, not weeks, not months, YEARS! I’m disappointed that he brought her back into my life after I feel I successfully put her where she belonged, the curb.

He asked me, during our talk, if I felt he’d cheat on me again. I told him I certainly thought it was a possibility. He said that really made him sad because we’d worked so hard in counseling and he was certain he would never do that again. I said I still saw glimmers of some of his behaviors (like lying about shit, he doesn’t even need to lie about), and I felt if the perfect storm of circumstances happened again (him feeling sorry for himself, a woman befriending him and then aggressively pursuing him like last time), yeah, I could see it happening again. I don’t think he’d go out looking for it, but if it fell into his lap (no pun intended), and he was feeling a certain way, it could happen.

I think what he will never understand Is that his cheating robbed me of the blind faith that I had in him or any man. I will never regain that, nor do I want to. I have been let down in some major way by most of the people in my life, starting with my parents. The only one I want to rely on, and can rely on, is myself. I trust to a point, period. Nobody gets beyond that point. The level of trust is superficial, at best and can be lost, in the blink of an eye.

At one point when we were in marriage counseling, he was whining about how hard it was knowing that if he stepped off the line in any way, I’d leave him. The marriage counselor said to me, “it must be hard to live your life that way, feeling if you make a mistake, the person you love will leave you.” I said, “you shoulda been living my life for the past two years. He’s right, if he steps off the line, he’s gone and I’m done. He has no more chances, he’s used them all.”

I’m not gonna lie, I’m super pissed about this, and resentful as hell. I just don’t know if we’ll make it through. When is enough of this bullshit, enough? Is he gonna make some asshole move ten years from now and put me through this again?

Fool me once…

I'm glad for the positive update.

To your original question, I would say that the bigger issue to me was his reaction to your being upset. If he were thoughtful and trained himself to see your perspective and anticipate triggers, then this wouldn't have happened in the first place. But if he were at least empathetic and remorseful, then as soon as you said, "The OW was in that video!" he should have been instantly apologetic. I know that's what my husband would have done. Sometimes we put our foot in our mouth but we should never ever jump down the throat of someone who has been hurt by what we did, intentional or not.

Sorry, I had a busy (nice) weekend and just got caught up on your posts from yesterday and today.

I think you did great. Requiring IC is a great move. My thought was going to be that you require him to do some deep introspection on what it means to love, honor and cherish your partner. Even write you a letter what you must have felt when you saw that video and her face.

And if he didn’t feel he could do that, then I was going to encourage you to tell him you couldn’t be with someone that not only couldn’t foresee the pain his actions would cause, but more importantly, couldn’t live with someone that wouldn’t see what he had done afterwards and apologize, ask forgiveness and work hard to right the wrong.

He’s going to make mistakes. We all do. Even if he never cheats again, human nature says he’s not infallible to making hurtful choices. But the true measure of him as a man, supportive of his wife, is that he can own up to his mistakes, show remorse, work to correct and learn from it.

Your requirement of IC is perfect.

The only thing I would have added is to tell him something like this:

“your assumption that I wouldn’t be hurt after all this time is dead wrong. I will always be hurt by any reminder of how you betrayed me. My goal has been to learn to live with it and be able to have a meaningful loving relationship With you for the rest of our lives.

Your actions totally contradict that goal. If you don’t have the same goals as me, if you are trying to push me away and end this marriage, just be honest with me. I don’t want to waste one more minute with someone who doesn’t have my best interests at heart.

If you’re all in with me, show it. Show me you are thinking of me with everything you do. Show me you care about my feelings.”

Anyway congrats on having that meaningful interaction with him. I hope he takes it to heart and really does the work you are looking for.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:24 PM, May 10th (Sunday)]

SWMNBC Exactly! I have always had the feeling from him that while he chooses his words wisely, his overall feeling was that I was not getting over his infidelity in an appropriate or timely manner. I suspect he felt that I overstated the amount of devastation and betrayal that I felt. Which is what I meant when I said I think he feels I’m not doing recovery right or fast enough. His comment to me that it was a long time ago and it shouldn’t matter anymore was dismissive and cold. Attitudes I have experienced from him in the past, prompting me to remind him that he doesn’t get to tell me how to feel.

I think he panicked when I told him he had crossed a line and I was done so he backpedaled, but the long-term problem is that his belief it still there underneath all the proper words. My hope is that by sharing all the comments with him from you guys, it gave him a better perspective into what infidelity does to a person, that he hasn’t had before, except from me.

Looks like we cross posted. Just wanted to make sure you saw my thoughts above yours. Thanks.

but the long-term problem is that his belief it still there underneath all the proper words.

Thank you so much for sharing, especially this. Very insightful. I would have the same concerns.

Reading this thread to him was an incredible thing. You used a 2x4. I View his reaction as hopeful.

Many WS would have left the room or not have listened. The fact that you had this conversation, spent the time, and had such a vulnerable conversation is positive. I think he heard you (he was not listening before). It reflects a strength in the relationship. As long as he follows with action and truly understands himself and the long term changes infidelity creates in a marriage and a BS.

I do understand being done though, this is a very personal choice. Don’t be unhappy for the rest of your life.

If I have learned one thing, real vulnerable constant communication core to any relationship. Keep up the good work.

I sincerely admire your commitment and bravery addressing this problem.

Most impressive

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 6:21 AM, May 11th (Monday)]

......but the long-term problem is that his belief it still there underneath all the proper words.

That unfortunately sums up a very significant number of WS's who think they are in R, or just wish R would hurry up and move on to the post R, forget about it phase. For too many waywards, the "underneath" lingers in that subdued but ever-present toxic sort of way.

Stevsn: Gosh, no apologies, please. I so appreciate you taking the time and sharing your perspective.

And this: “your assumption that I wouldn’t be hurt after all this time is dead wrong. I will always be hurt by any reminder of how you betrayed me. My goal has been to learn to live with it and be able to have a meaningful loving relationship With you for the rest of our lives.

Your actions totally contradict that goal. If you don’t have the same goals as me, if you are trying to push me away and end this marriage, just be honest with me. I don’t want to waste one more minute with someone who doesn’t have my best interests at heart.

If you’re all in with me, show it. Show me you are thinking of me with everything you do. Show me you care about my feelings.”

Is brilliant. I wish I could think like this. Instead I tend to come out swinging. This is said in a firm, yet loving manner. Clearly communicating that a boundry has been crossed, but reinforcing that I want positive things for the relationship and what he did hurt me, rather than angered me.

My reaction was one of HOW FUCKING DARE YOU! I’M DONE!! This is something I am working on in my therapy sessions. One of MY problems is that I’d rather appear angry than hurt. Admitting hurt makes me vulnerable and weak. I’m much more comfortable with being pissed off.

This is the very trait of mine that I feel sends him scampering for cover and willing to lie rather than face the rath. I think it probably triggers his passive aggressiveness and he doesn’t want to deal with the confrontation. Yet, even knowing this, it is still difficult for me to contain my impulse to react this way. After talking to a friend about what happened who offers a calmer, more loving way of dealing with it, or reading what you wrote above, I find myself thinking, “Oh shit, why didn’t *I* think of that? It’s so much better than what I did.”

We’re both broken and flawed in so many ways, that sometimes it feels overwhelming and exhausting. My therapist feels I need more gray in my life. I’ve always hated that fucking color.

Truly, thank you so much for this. What you wrote is exactly what I should have and really wanted to say! I am going to read that to him tonight and explain that to him.

CallingSpades: I think that is our fear most of the time. That they are paying us lip service, but the true feelings are something different and hidden. After all, we are well aware of how adept they are at lying and gaslighting, aren’t we? Whichever path we end up on, R or D, it’s a shit sandwich that we don’t want to eat.

Tallgirl: I was desperately trying to prove to him that my feelings and reactions to his infidelity and his latest faux paux are not extreme or unreasonable. I am the only BS he has come into contact with. But, I’m disappointed that I even had to do that. That I had to prove to him that others are feeling the same things I am. Why aren’t my feelings valid enough?

I also told him the sex and age (if available) of each poster because I didn’t want him to think that they were young and inexperienced, or all women. I am grateful that a few men responded as well.

I do give him credit for hanging in to the end. I could see your comments were having an effect on him and he was feeling bad, which is why I stopped and asked if he wanted me to continue.

But, I’m still left with a feeling of resentment that I have to prove the validity of my feelings. I know I’ve done well moving forward from the infidelity. I don’t hang out on this board all the time, constantly reliving the pain. As I said earlier, I believe in paying it forward by checking in from time to time to see if I can offer a morsel of comfort or experience. After all, when I needed help (both initially and now) people took the time to help me and I need to do the same. I find, most often, that the wise people on this board have already covered what I would have said, so there is no need to repeat it.

I also do not bring her up or talk about the infidelity, unless an issue like this happens. It’s been a long time, she is a non-issue, we’ve done a lot of work and moved on. However, if something sets off my antenna, I will do what I need to resolve it. I implicitly trust my gut and listen to it.

My feeling is that he wants to pretend it never happened, but it did and it left scars that occasionally need to be attended to.

I notice you said, “real vulnerable communication” I think that is something I need to work on, being willing to be vulnerable instead of coming off as angry, which is safer for me.

Thank you, Tallgirl, for your valuable input. I truly respect and appreciate it.

Yes asshole, but I do have to say, It may have been unintentional and not meant to hurt you.

Sometimes they just don't think.

My H had photos of his AP that were taken during his A. Nothing sexual, just photos. He deleted them but when I was looking through his phone for some other photos of our backyard I saw there were a handful left with her in them. I was livid. When I asked him about them (they were photos of a project they worked on at work when he worked with her) he said "They were just work photos and I didn't even think about them" He didn't even think about them hurting me. Anyway, he deleted them and then we went through his entire photos log to make sure any photo of her was gone.

Stupid? yes. Sometimes they are.

[This message edited by Evertrying at 12:14 PM, May 11th (Monday)]

Your self awareness is impressive. Keep it up.

Funny I never came out swinging. I wish I had. I avoid confrontation. But I hope no more.

I am glad my comments hit home.

I think it is ok to feel resentment. And to talk about it. It is a sign that you need to find the root cause, and fix it with you4 husband.

There is a technique called the 5 why’s. Try it.

Ask what do I feel resentment? The why the answer to that... 5 times. You will be surprised ar how well it works.

All the best. Hugs

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 7:41 AM, May 16th (Saturday)]

belief it still there underneath all the proper words

This, so much. They can change the surface, say all the right things, appear to do all the right things and truly care, but what's underneath? 8s it all just more of the facade, the mask, to keep things together?

I realized after dday that almost everything I thought I knew about my H was a lie. He had been pretending the entire time I had known him. He wasn't doing it maliciously. He was trying to be what he thought he was supposed to be rather than who he really is. His cheating exposed who he really is. I don't like the person he is.

So, now, he's back to trying to be someone I like. Is it real, true change, or is it just his mask going back on? Even if he never cheats again, I doubt he will ever be a person that i like. He cheated me out of the life I wanted by tricking me into thinking he was the man who could give it to me.

Why aren’t my feelings valid enough?

This, too. Why is it so hard for people to get this? Whatever anyone feels in any given moment is valid. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it. Sadly, I think so many people have their feelings, thoughts, ideas invalidated as children that they think that's normal.

I cringe every time I hear an adult say to a hurt or crying child, "You're ok. It's not that bad." Why not just say, "I see you are hurt. Can I help?"

My H's "negative" and "weak" feelings were invalidated. His father explicitly said to him that boys don't cry after he got hit with baseball when he was 5 or 6! Who wouldn't cry in that situation? He had no idea how to handle our boys when they had emotional outbursts. I had to show him that the quickest way to get it to settle down was to simply acknowledge it and sit with it. Give a hug and express empathy. It doesn't need to be fixed. It's ok. Now, I'm on my soapbox and rambling.

Tallgirl: So I immediately looked up the 5 whys. Interesting concept. My takeaway is that the first why is superficial, so you keep asking and digging until you get to the 'crux' (if you will) of the problem.

The example I read was a company wasn't paid for printing they had done. As the whys kept being explored it was determined they weren't paid because the job was delivered late because they ran out of ink because they'd had an earlier big job that used all their ink and they couldn't replace it fast enough to meet the deadline for the second job. After the five whys, what had initially looked like a deadbeat customer not paying for goods, was really an unprepared vendor who didn't meet the agreement, making the product unusable.

Which tells me that the initial why may be a red herring and the truth lies much deeper.

Thank you. I will discuss this with my husband and see how we can utilize this for a better understanding of where each of us is coming from.