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As a BW this would be EXTREMELY triggering for me. I think I probably would bite him. Lol Even before d-day I would not have allowed it.

You situation is unique being a MH, but you are still a betrayed spouse. I’m sure there’s a lot of wrestling with who gets to wear which hat at which time. I can’t imagine how hard that is to navigate.

I think we tend to degrade the wayward so much on here, we almost devalue them as people. We don’t get to treat them however we want because they fucked up (albeit royally) I understand mind movies and triggers as well as anybody. It doesn’t justify treating my WH like some faceless dildo, or pressuring him to do things for me sexually because “by god he owes me!” If I’m having those thoughts, that’s for ME to work on. We talk a lot about how messed up the waywards “justifications” were when they were cheating, but we sure make a lot of them for ourselves after d-day. At least I know I have. And I’ve seen plenty of it on here. It’s all the same bullshit.

Your reaction was appropriate and normal as a woman, and especially as a BS. You can’t keep twisting yourself into a pretzel because of your past actions forever. I hope you see the growth you have made, and the value you possess.

Question: You say your H wants to be wanted by you. Do you want him to want you? Usually any honest answer to a question of mine is OK, but if you answer 'No' to this one, I'm going to want to know why.)

I don't have a solution, but I don't see stopping in the middle as anything wrong, unless you planned it and aim to leave your H unsatisfied. What you describe makes excellent sense to me - if I knew my W was no longer with me, I'd stop. I stopped a number of times when I realized I wasn't into a particular event. I was into it, or thought I was, for a while, then I wasn't, and I stopped.

I think I can understand a madhatter (or anybody else, really) feeling very uncomfortable during sex and wanting to use porn to get out of the discomfort. The thing is: the discomfort is the problem. Porn just covers the discomfort up. The real cure is to deal with the discomfort.

IMO, your H needs to confront himself. All you can do, though, is figure out what you want and ask for it.

I think it would help if you want to be wanted. That's a normal BS desire, I think. You cheated. IIRC, your R didn't start until you told your H you'd make D as easy as possible for him but you wanted R. You showed that you wanted him. As a WS, if you still want R, you still have to show you want him, but as a BS, he needs to show he wants you. Watching porn while receiving a nice sexual service doesn't show much desire for the partner, IMO. So who's weaponizing sex?

As usual, communication is the way to go. Ask for what you want. Don't pretend you don't want something (like all his attention) because you think you don't deserve it. See how he responds.

R requires a lot of risk-taking. You were/are willing. If your H isn't willing, too, maybe R is not the best way to go. That would be a loss for both of you, but if R isn't going to succeed because he won't do his work, you'll probably benefit from being free of him.

OTOH, if you put your BS clothes on and make demands, maybe he'll step up.

HO how often does he watch porn while you have intimacy? If he is doing this more than "regular" intimacy? If he is doing this more I would set up a boundary if this makes you uncomfortable.

After DDay 1, and as the rebuilding of our connection began, WH and I had the best sex we'd ever had in our 20 years together. There was open communication, vulnerability, and genuine connection (and desire for it).

After DDay2, and I found out about the sex, I was disgusted. By him. By me. My sexuality became shameful because I did NOT want to connect with him at all, and instead just wanted to use him to get off. Which was fine in the moment, when I just kind of got lost in the sensations, but made me feel awful afterwards. Honestly, it made me feel like HIM during his A. Just using his AP to get off, porn with skin. He did not ever pretend to love her, but he sure loved the sexual attention he got from her.

Over the past almost two years, we've had sex less times than I can count on my hands and only a couple of those were face-to-face. Every time I've cried afterwards. We are great friends, we love each other and laugh together, but I still feel like if we connect sexually, then I am somehow betraying myself. (It's the age-old concept that I have to forgive myself for staying.)

I wonder if your MH is subconsciously doing the same. Keeping you at a distance emotionally by bringing in the porn? It seems like a weird thing to focus on, when so many other issues abound in your life and relationship, but I do think some serious conversations about boundaries within your sex life, and digging into the why's of some of the ways by which you engage sexually, could be really good.

I KNOW that what I am doing in my bedroom is not healthy for a relationship. Sure, we can do it forever, but neither of us feels good or connected at the end of it. In fact, the shame that follows my orgasm kinda sucks out any good feelings that happened. A few weeks ago I started doing some digging into ways to heal my issues and more specifically into Sensate Focus. It's a Masters and Johnson therapy that has been helpful for people who have been have some sexual dysfunction (whether physical or emotional). It centers on touch, not sex and is a step by step program where you abstain from sexual touching for the first couple of stages. We've started and it has been a good way for me to learn mindfulness about staying in the moment and not letting the mind movies and anger from betrayal take over.

Perhaps something like that or a professional with experience in this arena would be helpful for you both. I know that as WS you let a lot of things slide that a normal BS would not, and it's got to be hard to grapple with when to speak up for yourself. I think this is a great time to really get to the heart of why you had porn literally and figuratively as a barricade between you and your H.

[This message edited by TX1995 at 11:22 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

Bringing in porn at that point was disrespectful, you didn’t feel comfortable so you removed yourself. That is totally ok.

Early on I would get so consumed with mind movies I would have to stop and walk away. I still cannot watch porn because it triggers the hell out me.

Right after Dday it took a month before I could touch her. During HB I had to focus on me because if I thought of her I would lose interest.

I felt that her A was about needing better sex, so I started studying the female orgasm. I read everything I could about it. I learned a lot about women’s sexuality that I never knew or understood. I know my mindset before was that sex lasted as long as I did.

When I finally realized that her A wasn’t about seeking better sex, my self esteem started to heal, I became more open and giving in our sex life. I’m glad I studied and learned more about sex. I stopped being selfish and rolling over afterwards. We are having the best sex ever. We make our grown kids blush, and yell “get a room!!!”The MM still come occasionally but they don’t throw me off.

I don’t want to make a joke about what happened, but I know I speak for most men reading this, please don’t bite it!!!

So, not sure what that falls under? Lack of Emotional Intelligence? Hard to put that label on him either because he has always been good at reading people and situations. He's an excellent negotiator, and his communication/teaching skills in his career are exemplary. He is one of the most in demand consultants in his field.

He just really is out of tune with his own inner working and emotions. Until he figures it out, I don't think I will be able to trust him. It's not a lack of honesty issue (weird I feel that way, despite his affair) it's being able to trust him that he knows what he wants and feels.

This isn't uncommon among males. We tend to be task oriented. We can be highly accomplished professionals, even in ways that require the ability to read others and communicate with them, because as professionals we clearly understand what our tasks are and we can use that to guide our actions.

When it comes to our own personal interests, though, we don't have a client or a boss saying "I need you to accomplish X." Without knowing what "X" is, we flail.

I would worry more about using sex as a way to avoid negative feelings instead of it becoming too easy to ignore your sex life.

When you talked about feeling like you were not the strong person you saw yourself after your affair, that struck a chord with me.

Right before the affair, my husband became increasingly more vain in a fragile way and prone to being manipulated in general. Maybe it was because our marriage was falling apart and he was searching more for outside validation. Maybe it was always there and I didn't see it. As I watched it, I began to lose respect for him. I saw him as weak and unaware.

His AP was an acquaintance who learned we were having problems in our marriage. After D-day, when he told me he thought she was a good friend and I read all the text messages with all of her mirroring his interests, flattery, and trying to bring herself into all parts of his life, it hit me hard. I felt like he was a stupid, weak, and downright pathetic man. That sounds mean, but it's true. I can reframe it and see it differently now. I felt stupid myself for being with him.

There's something about your husband's AP and affair that's similar. When you mentioned "weaponized sex", I thought of AP asking him to say she's better during sex. That and her being a trusted employee/friend does seems weaponized.

Now I'm not saying my husband's affair (or your WH's) was not his decision 100% or absolving him of responsibility. I knew others could flatter him about his education, career, money, fathering, and he would sometimes be persuaded to do things for them. But I didn't know he could be manipulated sexually.

In general, I do feel differently about sex now. I see an uglier side of it. It's not fun.

H:

I just have to state, as a fellow MH (after a fashion) but also as a man, that this behavior is beyond disrespectful. It may in fact be pathologically hostile.

No man who respects, much less authentically loves, his woman, would be scrolling porn while she was going down on him.

My main takeaway is that he remains deeply hurt about your A (his own notwithstanding) and is doing this very mean thing as a defense mechanism.

One way or another, you absolutely should not put up with this behavior. It's bad for both of you, and speaks to deeper wounds on both sides that have heretofore arisen.

You are incredibly strong, self-knowledgable and empathic; it all pours out on your posts. But this behavior must end, and, unfortunately, it appears that there are more miles to go before you and your H resolve your issues.

Wishing you the best.

So, after my affair I think part of the reason I had a hard time getting past the AP is I just really couldn't believe I was so stupid. It was hard for me to understand I had been lied to and duped. I get you really can't be duped into having an affair, I do not mean to diminish my accountability. What I mean to say is maybe I have some sort of blind spot when it comes to pride that it becomes hard for me to believe that I am not this strong woman who I always saw myself as. I am not sure if that makes sense or not. I guess it boils down to that I see my husband as an extension of me, but he isn't? We are two individuals.

Not sure I am putting my finger on the right thing, but I wrote that out anyway.

It might be about my perfectionism.

This is pretty much text book codependency. Which you know because you have done so much to address it in your work as a WS. You need to apply that work now on the flipside as a BS. You can’t carry his burden for him.

This is all good stuff to consider.

I really do think those who have a lifetime of self awareness that may falter is a different beast than someone who built those walls very young and has a lifetime / status quo of avoiding feelings. And that makes some sense to me WRT his A.... if not feeling is a status quo, then the BS must find a way to cope with the trauma of dday. Doesn't seem like much of a stretch to get from that lack of feeling/coping skills to an A. However, I think a BS engaging in a relatively long A injects a whole host of deeply rooted issues. IOW, IMO having a ONS after dday strikes me as a trauma response. Not a healthy one, but a trauma response. Having an 18month A is different - it goes beyond a trauma response. It requires superman skills of compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance.

This was/is my concern. It's why I had to have the poly before even doing anything because it screamed at me there could have been others. When I say blindsided, I literally had no idea.

My husband was blindsided by my affair too, but differently. He knew something was wrong he just didn't know what. I didn't even know something was wrong.

Question: You say your H wants to be wanted by you. Do you want him to want you?

This question creates some conflict for me. I don't know why. I am going to say mostly yes. I do want that, or I did. The conflict is mostly due to his affair, because there are days I really don't give a damn what he wants. It feels much more liberating to be in that space, I live there more than I probably should.

Watching porn while receiving a nice sexual service doesn't show much desire for the partner

This is the soul crushing aspect that brought me to finally post on this. It brings a great deal of insecurity up for me, compounded by his overly sexual affair. And, while it doesn't matter, I do wonder when this happened. Is it a result of my own affair? Could be. But, the nagging feeling that I have is there is probably an unhealthy relationship to porn at play here. Sure, my affair probably complicated the issue, but I don't think it's what created the issue.

One of the things that is difficult to me is an overriding desire not to control another person. This comes from FOO and watching my mother dictate my fathers life. I sometimes emotionally, not logically, find myself unable to differentiate some of my boundaries with being a controlling, nagging abusive person my mother was.

I know I am not that at all. I am easy going, too easy going for my own good, and that's in all aspects of my life - from my marriage, my job, and my children. It's an awareness that I came to early in my IC as a WS, and I continue to work on it as these situations arise.

The way my mind plays this is if he wants to watch porn then that's what he wants to do. If I tell him don't do it, then I become the mother in the relationship, which is not a role I want. Then I land on probably a healthier thought which is he needs to decide for himself if this relationship with porn he has is a problem and if he feels that it interferes with having a greater intimacy with me or not. Without him deciding that, I do not think I am interested in trying to be the one to control it. I can control if I participate in it, and I can control if we stay married without him having that epiphany. So, it's pretty much with that framing that I will likely start the conversation tonight.

It's a very difficult thing for me to look at, I have been trying to ignore too many things because it makes me feel defeated, as if divorce is going to be inevitable. I say I don't fear a divorce, but maybe that's just tough talk.

Ask for what you want

I definitely will. I don't fear that. And, honestly as bad as this all sounds, I do think he will try and comply with what I ask. I just don't want him to comply because I ask though. I want him to comply because I inspire him in some way. Tall order, and I do fear that part is too much to ask (WS hat comes on)

OTOH, if you put your BS clothes on and make demands, maybe he'll step up.

Demands are harder for me than requests. But, I know why you use the word. I have made many BS lines in the sand, but I never do without weighing things with my WS hat. I am not sure how you would ever separate that, I have been in the WS role for years now, the BS role for months.

HO how often does he watch porn while you have intimacy? If he is doing this more than "regular" intimacy? If he is doing this more I would set up a boundary if this makes you uncomfortable.

While our average number per week is probably down in the last couple of months, I will give you what is average for us normally. We typically have sex 3 or 4 times a week. Porn is used probably most of those sessions. This week, prior to last night we have had sex twice. Once with and once without. There is no difference in performance, in fact I would say his erections are better without it. I would say it's much more common for it to be used than not. He also uses it on days we do not have sex. I don't know what the norm is for that. He doesn't avoid doing things to have porn time, it's not multiple times a day or anything. Overall, I probably would call it more of a growing problem rather than seeing classic signs of addiction to it?

I will respond more to the other posts, this one is getting too long.

Honestly, it made me feel like HIM during his A. Just using his AP to get off, porn with skin.

It makes me feel like his AP. I don't think I realized that until I read what you wrote.

I feel like he used her for sex.

I feel like the AP used me for sex.

Now, with the way he is acting I feel like an AP.

I don't want what the AP got. I don't want what my affair gave. I want much more. This sentence was like something fell into place for me on how to articulate some of this.

And shame. Yes. It brings back a wall of shame for me. I am not a crier, but I am sitting here crying with this. I have been back in IC for months, why do I always get more from this site than I do in there? This has not even been discussed.

I do think I have kept my walls up because I don't want to face how I see my husband now. It's worse than when I had to face who I was being because at least I felt I had some control over that. I am really tired from all the years we have been dealing with it, I sometimes don't know if I have the energy to do this more, and for longer.

Keeping you at a distance emotionally by bringing in the porn? It seems like a weird thing to focus on, when so many other issues abound in your life and relationship, but I do think some serious conversations about boundaries within your sex life, and digging into the why's of some of the ways by which you engage sexually, could be really good.

YES.

Bringing in porn at that point was disrespectful, you didn’t feel comfortable so you removed yourself. That is totally ok.

I do agree. And, honestly he is ultimately okay with that as well. He was confused by it, because this is pretty normal for us, but I have just gotten to where I can't tolerate it anymore. He asked me the question, and in the heat of the moment it felt like an accusation. He is fine saying let's be celibate for a while, he said so this morning. I don't want that though, I don't think avoiding the issue is going to help. But, what TX1995 just said about sensate therapy, it made me think that maybe we need to take some of the emotion out of this and think about making this a project for us. Rather than feeling like the sky is falling because the one thing that has always worked well between us feels so broken, just say Okay this sucks, acknowledge that it sucks and figure out a way that it doesn't suck any more.

When it comes to our own personal interests, though, we don't have a client or a boss saying "I need you to accomplish X." Without knowing what "X" is, we flail.

So, if this was an algebra class maybe we just need to solve for X. Literally.

When you talked about feeling like you were not the strong person you saw yourself after your affair, that struck a chord with me.

When I said it, it struck a chord with me too. I think it's a very important thing for me to be more cognizant of. I think Poppy is correct, there is some lingering co-dependency happening here. She is right, I worked on that from one side, but there is obviously stuff still lingering around in there from a different perspective.

There's something about your husband's AP and affair that's similar. When you mentioned "weaponized sex", I thought of AP asking him to say she's better during sex. That and her being a trusted employee/friend does seems weaponized.

Interesting. I will think about that more.

It may in fact be pathologically hostile.

No man who respects, much less authentically loves, his woman, would be scrolling porn while she was going down on him.

I am hearing this from many men who responded to this. As I mentioned, we have used porn together off and on through our whole marriage. I hadn't thought about it much because prior to the shit show, it was sometimes just another tool in the toolbox. Watch some erotica, and then get it on. But, it's become something else. I think what you state here is my biggest fear. At the same time, I can freely say to you that I know I didn't love him during my affair. I may have thought I did because of fond feelings, but you can't actively love someone and cheat on them.

I am thinking that maybe instead of looking at it as if he doesn't love me and never has. That he hasn't loved me or respected me probably for years. I killed it first, and he kept it dead by cheating on me. I think that's something I wasn't facing because I took for granted that I understood that due to my experience. I am starting to see I may need to start at square one instead of being led by the momentum of all the events.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:10 PM, March 12th (Friday)]

Thank you guys. When I posted this, I thought maybe I would start a discussion in which people would chime in on their experiences. It's why I said I wasn't looking for advice. I am glad you all ignored that and used it as an opportunity to dial into where I am right now.

I haven't been speaking up so much because I do have a complex about being the WS first. I feared (and have expressed this fear in PM's to others here) that people would just feel like I was the WS first and this is what happens. I think really I am the one who hasn't gotten rid of those feelings and I project it onto people who can help me. I have been holding a lot close to my vest and probably for no reason at all.

Old Wounds - you are so wise. I had walked away and your response got lost on page one. Everything you wrote is what I do know needs to happen.

He has to show some of that empathy you gave him or there is little chance for progress. My wife trying to understand my pain is what got us a chance. He needs to try and understand yours.

I can say he is trying. I think it's harder for him sometimes because he hasn't fully dealt with my affair. I also think that when you come off an 18 month affair, it's going to take more than 5 months for him to get past some of the brainwashing he did to himself. I can understand that part, I have been there and done that. He steadily makes progress, and I can accept that for now. It's still frustrating, painful, and at times exhausting.

...you are so wise.

Thanks, but real wisdom only happens after we've experienced and understood the pain we've survived. In other words, wisdom helps understand where we've been and a map of how to avoid similar traps in the future, but it doesn't do much for healing.

I don't know if either you or your husband has had much of an opportunity to heal.

From your choices years ago, to his more recent choices -- you two are out of the frying pan, into the fire, and pandemic world doesn't help ANY of this.

I can say he is trying. I think it's harder for him sometimes because he hasn't fully dealt with my affair. I also think that when you come off an 18 month affair, it's going to take more than 5 months for him to get past some of the brainwashing he did to himself.

The dangerous theme here is -- he didn't deal with the emotional fall out of your affair (at least not in a HEALTHY way), and it doesn't like he is dealing well with your emotional fall out from his affair.

I do know it takes both people to be all in for R.

I hope he gets there. I hope you guys find a way back.

But in regard to the 'opportunity cost' thread (I only skimmed) -- I think after any of us have been betrayed -- I can't ever suggest anyone stay because it's the devil we know or obligation to time served in a relationship.

He steadily makes progress, and I can accept that for now. It's still frustrating, painful, and at times exhausting.

All very understandable.

You've been patient and I hope he appreciates that.

My wife said something, long before we hit therapy, but it's something we both agreed on and is a part of how we now, properly value each other.

She said of the "work" to be together, "Marriage should be hard, but it shouldn't be TOO hard."

Our goal was to get to a point where it isn't so much work anymore. And we did the Sisoon strategy -- we healed individually and then we teamed up to heal the M.

When the focus is giving to the other and not taking, we each feel valued (again).

In the overstating the obvious department: For all humans, our value evaporates completely during infidelity.

This thread to me feels like it's about you NOT feeling valued or special during intimacy.

It can be special to push through the pain and love each other anyway, despite all the Hell you've been through. When you crush the odds going uphill both ways, there is something cool about obliterating horror show adversity as a TEAM.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 2:05 PM, March 12th (Friday)]

We started MC immediately after dday. I was so disgusted by my WH that I couldn’t imagine kissing him, let alone having sex with him. We brought that up during our first session to put boundaries in place. I was so scared that he would go back to her (super codependent) that even though I hated porn, I said he could do whatever and our MC said that was a terrible idea. Our relationship was already broken enough and the last thing we needed was something to get in the way of any intimacy. He said my WH was an adult with an imagination and a shower and he could figure it out if he needed to. Porn was the last thing we needed and our MC set the boundary for us - NO PORN.

It gave me one less thing to stress and worry about (who is he watching, what does she look like, are they young or old, etc) and gradually we started having sex again. Me using him at first (no kissing), then kissing, and now we have great sex, better than pre-dday.

I think you, even as a MH should assess what you want and need in your marital sex life. Do you like the porn? Do you want it? Me personally, I would be ok very once in awhile at a hotel or something to turn it on, but not every time or almost every time. I’ll be damned if I was going down and my WH turned on porn. That’s insulting and disrespectful in my opinion. If it’s not for you and you’re ok with it, that’s ok too, but it sounds like you’re not. The reason most of us are here is because someone didn’t use their words and speak up when they were unhappy with a situation and let resentments build. I like that you are starting to do it. I think you should keep doing that. Keep figuring out what you want and need. If it doesn’t match up with what your WH wants and needs and you guys can’t compromise, figure out if someone is being unreasonable. I don’t think you are being unreasonable in this situation. That’s the question I ask myself when I want to address a situation now.

Sorry for the novel. Good luck!!!

But in regard to the 'opportunity cost' thread (I only skimmed) -- I think after any of us have been betrayed -- I can't ever suggest anyone stay because it's the devil we know or obligation to time served in a relationship.

Yes, I know that thread is kind of bleak.

I think some days, I have to look really hard at why I am keeping this marriage. I am sure that came out in all that. I feel defeated by his affair. After all the pain and turmoil, I was getting to a place where I was saying "I feel I have healed from my affair". I do think I was - I had found self worth, value, I had found some balance, I was practicing things I needed to work on. I felt self compassion, and I was finally starting to give myself a break.

I am a big self-flaggelation person for sure. I always have been. Even when I was a kid my parents rarely punished me because they felt I would punish myself enough for whatever I would do. I felt like I was done with that.

And, his affair knocked the wind out of my sails. I am only now starting to understand that in more of it's entirety.

My cost analysis is what gets me by these days. I don't want to smoke the hopium pipe, I am pretty clear I only want to stay in this marriage if some very specific things happen. But, I also know that those things take time. So, I evaluate what it is I am missing. It's the special part. He's not special to me right now. It hurts me to my core to admit that. Brings tears to my eyes. It's this knowledge that tortures me of how I lost my special to him as well.

I can honestly say despite drawbacks, such as the one that caused me to write this thread, I do think we are both fighting like hell to hang on right now. I don't always come on and celebrate the things he is doing right, or the minor victories we have had. It's just hard to feel like celebrating anything right now.

I am trying to focus on myself, what makes me happy, continue to keep some accountability towards him and myself.

I do stand by what I said in that thread though. There is no reason for me to rush into a decision. I have decided to try and R, that's a decision. But, on days where I am flailing, I remind myself there is nothing I am rushing towards. I remind myself that some of the rose colored glasses stuff is probably just gone for the long term regardless of the route I go. It's a rock and a hard place right now, and so whatever I can do to hang in there probably does sound bleak. I know that's not what I want in the longer haul.

I see him some days and feel disgusted. Other days, I see him as the man I have always known with all the good mixed in. Sometimes when he pulls shit like this I want to hurt him (don't worry Tanner, I am pretty sure I am not going to bite him!)

I am hoping I can go home tonight and we can have a productive conversation. At this point, if it's not, I think I will spend the weekend in the RV.

Thanks, thissucks.

I am entertaining MC. We didn't do much of it the first time around. But, I do find we can communicate pretty well most of the time. Sometimes I get emotionally overwhelmed and we have to stop but I think that's to be expected. I think there are some things that would be helpful for him to have time to work out before we go back to it.

As for the porn, I have to figure out exactly where I am with it because I do not want to be confusing to him. When we had it out on occasion prior to all this, I didn't really mind it. I sometimes have watched porn alone, but not in a really, really long time.

I am thinking that what your IC said is probably what we need to do. No porn until further notice. Let's work on our intimacy and if all goes well we can go back to having that occasionally. I would also like him take some time to evaluate his relationship with porn and make some decisions there for himself. I do think it's become a crutch, and one that sometimes even I have relied on.

Ugh hiking...

Sometimes (most of the time) your posts really unnerve me. The similarities in our situations is just insane. Your posts echo a lot of what my wife has said or is saying. Your husband and I seem to have handled betrayal in similar ways too.

I think you and I could offer some insight into each other's situations, but I also understand how we can trigger the fuck out of each other. It's happened before. That said, I completely understand if you would rather not have me posting in this thread. Just say the word and I will bow out without any hard feelings.

I wrote a long ass post and it was a rambling mess, so I just started over.

I have done the porn on a tablet or phone while she goes down on me. A lot of the issue is the mental picture of her doing that to someone else can easily pop into my head and that makes sex super difficult for me. I almost always lose any desire to be with her, and oftentimes my erection, which causes both of us a shitload of 'mindfuck' for lack of a better term. Porn helps with that.

My wife got used by her AP, she knows it and I know it. Loverboy actually called her a whore on d day. She gave up a marriage with security, passion, and mutual respect to get used by a loser that merely threw a bunch of meaningless words at her. Most of which were retracted on d day. It's a fucking tragedy really. So I'm stuck with trying to sort out why my wife would offer herself to this guy while I'm at home. She submitted to him. Proclaimed her love. I got the don't love you speech while she let him ejaculate inside her multiple times and swallowed for his "attention". She didn't even have a single orgasm during the A - polygraph verified. I feel duped. I paid full price with commitment, respect, my faithfulness, love, and concern for her sexual satisfaction, I sacrificed many things after marriage, yet these things meant nothing. She still strayed with some loser who's only investment was meaningless words. I got the day to day drudgery and loverboy got the good stuff- love, devotion, and sexual satisfaction.

She ended her A expecting to step back into the M, but I am simply not as invested as before. Now, most days I really don't give a shit if she leaves or stays. I don't give a shit about her sexual satisfaction. It's another mindfuck to put any effort into sex with her too. Grudge fucking is pretty much all we do. I fight feelings of disgust during sex, which makes it difficult to finish. It's a shitshow.

Why do we even bother with sex? I think it's the MH anxiety of "if I don't, then someone else will" and rinse, wash, repeat. What sucks is we get along really well otherwise. I know her A wasn't about me, but it did cause these issues. I don't know what to tell you hiking. I am curious to see where this thread goes.

Buck - I am okay with you posting on my threads. We have triggered each other in the past, but what you said here is not really triggering to me.

I think that we can overcome the porn as a crutch, but it's going to take some work on his part. I think I am going to put a moratorium on the porn and ask that we work together to put more time and effort into revamping our intimacy. That does not have to include oral sex or even full blown sex.

My h actually performs much better without the porn. When we had sex earlier this week without it, it was probably the best we have had in a really long time. I think it's more an pre-emptive anxiety for him, he does not admit to still having mind movies. He said that he'd worked through that part. My guess, and I am going to be more pointed in asking, is he was able to put those aside due to his affair. But you are kind of telling me that I might be wrong there.

I understand the pre-emptive anxiety. I have some of that as well, but it's always been there in some form or fashion over the course of our marriage.

If I have any advice for you, I think we tend to value something we put effort into and tend to. If you can find your way back to that, there might be a better outcome. I just know I am not willing to put up with this stuff for years on end moving forward. Perhaps some of the lack of electricity comes from your wife being still willing to put up with it. It probably is still too reminiscent of her waywardness. I tend to think that to become more attractive to each other, there has to be a restoration of respect. The fact she has not gone back to commanding it may be part of what is missing. (other than the obvious other things I told you during the last exchange we have had in the forum - just not in the mood to beat you over the head with all that again right now)

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:16 PM, March 12th (Friday)]

I tend to think that to become more attractive to each other, there has to be a restoration of respect.

Truth.

And based on your first post in your thread, you were not feeling a lot of respect with the husband feeling like porn was needed for the intimate moment.

Which kind of points back to where you’re at with giving respect back — not much. Respect has to happen before someone can be special to you again for sure.

Deja vu with the self-flagellation and parents not punishing me for the same reason. Hell, despite ALL the SI advice it still took me a couple YEARS to not blame myself in some way for my wife’s infidelity. I still sneak in an occasional, “if I only did THIS back then, everything would be SO much better.”

Ugh.

Well, the wisdom I finally figured out is, I am not my wife’s choices.

And you are hopefully wrapping up blaming yourself for your husband’s choice to double down on the damage.

We do agree that no relationship is worth staying due to any sense of obligation. If there is no joy or no chance for joy, best move on.

That said, relationships should never have rose colored glasses. Real is always better. If you are able to heal the M from this spot, it will be sans bullshit. No projections or dreamy ideals last forever anyway.

My wife is imperfect. Way imperfect. But she’s perfect to me because she is brave enough now to face her flaws and strong enough to be vulnerable with someone she hurt horribly.

A world without masks (and I know you were certain that’s the world you were trying to build before your discovery of his A) is a beautiful thing.

Aim big. Life is WAY too short to exist in misery one second more than necessary.