SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What is the irony exactly?

For me, personally, the irony seems pretty obvious.

That aside, I'll never condone cheating, whether it is hidden or out in the open. I have my own beliefs, and that is how I live my life.

I will say this for Mrs. Buck---she is free to leave the marriage any time that she wants to. She may be remorseful, and by Buck's description, she very well may be. But it is HER responsibility to leave a marriage that she finds abusive. We aren't there, so maybe she is content with what the dynamic has evolved into. Maybe her self esteem is still in a poor state, and she feels she 'deserves' this. What we do know, is that we don't know---and if she chooses to stay, that is her choice.

RIO, I’ve talked to my wife about the words issue so many damn times it’s absurd. I said the same stuff to her pretty much daily. I asked why his words meant so much to her and she says because she thought I had to say those things and he didn’t. I was her husband and she expected me to say those things. Her sheer stupidity in this is just baffling to me.

There's no gender bias. I'd ask the same questions if you were a woman.

You say you told her you wouldn't be faithful, so why haven't you told her everything you've done? Sure sounds like cheating to me... and blame-shifting to the victim because you already told her or whatever, however long ago that was.

If you really think that what you've done is okay, why not tell her TODAY the entire extent of your infidelity???

I’ve told her everything - dates, places, who, etc., years ago. I’ve answered every single question she’s asked truthfully without a single ounce of trickle truth. I did not tell her when it was going on. I lied about where I was going and what I was doing during the last affair, but I came clean on my own accord. She had no idea before I told her. I’ve said this many times here.

So, she knows everything there is to know about both affairs and she understands the contempt you have for her which you have described in this thread. If she were to read this thread, nothing would surprise her???

For me, personally, the irony seems pretty obvious.

Me too. It is a situation contrary to expectations -- and while painful can also be seen in a gallows humor kind of way. That's the very definition of an ironic situation. I myself feel the irony all the time. I miss the wife I thought I had. Irony. She's in fact a different person than the one I thought I married. Irony. This was revealed to me in a "reversal" plot twist worthy of a Hollywood blockbuster. Irony. We had a good marriage; now we have a stumbling along marriage. Irony. I have a "Stepford wife" similar to WWTL's. Irony. I love her but I'm not in love with her. Irony. That last one is usually to me the most darkly humorous.

It's not "ha ha" laugh out loud funny. But it certainly is cosmically funny. The universe has a sense of humor and it's a bitch.

Irony all around.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:19 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

Yes CT, she knows. I had the irony discussion with her last week right before MC. That discussion prompted the first post in this thread. We discussed how much is lacking in the M after our anniversary last Friday and much of what I’ve said here was covered. I’ve been honest here, I see no reason to skew shit on the internet. I can’t get relevant advice or input if I’m withholding any info. There’s no reason for me to lie to a bunch of strangers either.

It’s a tricky situation. If she were a business partner, I would have cut all ties and done everything in my power to destroy her. That’s just how it is. But she is the mother of my children. We been together for a very long time. There is a ton of shared history and many good memories too. I don’t want to drop the D bomb and cause her to spiral into despair or worse. I really am at my wits end. It’s not an easy decision to stay or go. I get how this looks from the outside. I think I should be past it too. I’ve gotten my pound of flesh but things don’t seem to be getting better when it comes to how I see her. Much like WWTL, I am starting to think I’m not a candidate for R.

Do you WANT to love her again? Do you WANT to like her again?

You,as you said, got your pound of flesh, and you no longer want to punish her.

You're tired of living like this. Have you tried to work on your resentment towards her? Do you want to?

If you are just done, that's fine. Perfectly understandable.

But if you don't want to divorce, have you really tried to work on the marriage? You might say yes. But,considering the enormous amount of contempt you have for her, it's failed.

Are you willing to work on getting past the contempt and resentment, in IC?

This is one of the saddest stories I have my read on this site. Do you realize the years the two of you have wasted that you will never get back? If you are going to be full of rage for the rest of your life then you need to move on. You are describing a man who has taken pleasure in hurting a person over and over again. You can describe it in 1000 different ways but that is what you are doing. It does not serve a purpose. It does not make you happy and it’s slowly destroying your life. The dynamics in a marriage are what two people bring to it. At some point your wife felt the need for validation that she was not getting from you. She is the textbook wife who will give sex for affection. So now you are withholding it as further punishment. You have made a child out of her and she has accepted this. Furthermore you have eight years of two affairs. How dare you sit on your throne and look down on your wife! This is a sick relationship. You need individual treatment and so does she. Your marriage cannot survive like this.

I decided to post this. I’m sorry I came on so strong. You are here to get help not to be raked over the coals. You are obviously in a great deal of pain. I have no suggestion for you other than to seek really intense therapy. In fact each of you need it separately. Good luck

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 5:01 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

At some point your wife felt the need for validation that she was not getting from you.

This is interesting. It's almost like you're saying “unmet needs” drove her to betray her heretofore loyal spouse? Surely you're not recycling that ol’ wayward chestnut?

She is the textbook wife who will give sex for affection.

This too is interesting. It almost seems like you're saying “textbook” WW’s generally dole out sexual favors for ego kibbles. Use sex as a tool of manipulation and currency of exchange, in other words.

So do you just plan to stay married and make her suffer for the rest of her life? If you’ve decided you’ll never be faithful again, is having a 3rd affair still an option for you?

Two (or three) wrongs don’t make a right.

Just get divorced and put you both our of misery.

Buck, Its amazing but our stories are very similar. Same things you did, mirror what I did. I used to spend hours finding the perfect gift. After, if I did get something, it would be to run into Banana Republic and buy a sweater. A few times it was the same one from a year ago. I commuted from GCT. Couple of times a month I would buy flowers for no reason. Just basically because she loved them and made her happy. I never bought them again after the affair. Its really sad as the 12 bucks spent on them would have meant more than a new car. I just couldn't.

Same things with purchases. About a month prior to the affair I had my eye on a classic car. I took her to see it, but we both decided it was just to impractical as we really didn't have the garage space, and her car would have had to sit out. A few months after the affair I just bought it with our telling her. When I pulled into the driveway almost dared her to say something. She said it was really nice, but I knew how she really felt. the car was a constant reminder of her infidelity.

To answer your question, my relationship with my kids is ok. When we separated almost 5 years after the affair the whole thing came out. Its funny. They suspected infidelity. they just thought it was me who had the affair. After getting pissed at her, they quickly circled the wagons around her. They could sense how broken she was. I was a little hurt, but it was probably the right thing. She needed their support, where I was fine on my own.

To understand how they felt, you need to realize that prior to the affair my wife was almost a saint. She wasn't the whore who did all those things with him, No one is a good enough actor to play the role for 25 years prior, then 5 years after. She just was in the throws of a MLC and lost her way.

Thats why I don't buy into the once a cheater always a cheater. It was a perfect storm and she really fucked up. Thats how they felt. She made a terrible mistake, but did it because she wasn't really dealing with all her marbles. Me on the other hand was looked on as the fixer of the problems. They expected me to fix it. Instead i was cold and in their eyes just casted her aside even as she she did everything she could to fix things. I wasn't crazy, I was just the guy who ultimately broke up the family. (I know I wasn't so this doesn't keep me up at night)

Its better now, but they will always be team Mrs WWTL. Thats ok. I just wish she would get her shit together which would really be the best cure for this.

I also get the need for the RA. I never did that, but a huge reason that I wanted out was so I didn't. Once separated though, I got what she did out of my system X100. Best cure ever for mind movies is having another woman loving sex with you. I still don't ever recommend doing it while still married however.

How was your wife prior to the affair? Do you think this is the person she was, or do you think she just went crazy for a time?

My guess is you bite the bullet and just divorce. She will fight it tooth and nail. Mine did, although not the money crap. Just agreeing to it. She felt right up until the papers were signed we were still the soulmates we once were. Even years after I would get drunken texts begging for another chance. While the second chance sounds merciful, in your situation, as in mine, its not. Giving them false hope, or having their husbands look at them as tarnished goods is more devastating then just walking away.

What is holding you back? You don't need her permission. You wouldn't need it even if she never cheated. Im not sure how old you are, but i will be 65 in a week, and though I have a great girlfriend right now, if that went south, I know there are plenty of women out there that would love to be with me.

You just need to get yourself unstuck. Its the right thing for both of you.

I'm still going to pray for your wife, Buck. That's a shitty way to live. I can't even imagine staying in a relationship with that kind of contempt consistently directed at me.

I don’t want to drop the D bomb and cause her to spiral into despair or worse. I really am at my wits end. It’s not an easy decision to stay or go.

It IS possible to take a much more proactive approach to healing. Let me know if you ever decide to get serious about R and I'll be glad to share everything that worked for me.

She made a terrible mistake, but did it because she wasn't really dealing with all her marbles. Me on the other hand was looked on as the fixer of the problems. They expected me to fix it.

Slight t/j.

So you were always the fixer, but not this. You refused to fix this.

To understand how they felt, you need to realize that prior to the affair my wife was almost a saint.

And you had an amazingly high opinion of her prior to this.

Instead i was cold and in their eyes just casted her aside even as she she did everything she could to fix things.

Are they right? Thousands of people here doing everything to R. Nobody 'has to' R, but for those many who want to, we wonder why so cold no matter what she did? You had in R what we are all wishing for.

The similarity in your and Buck's story is obvious--your personalities. They kind of scare me honestly, even through a keyboard.

Are they right? Thousands of people here doing everything to R. Nobody 'has to' R, but for those many who want to, we wonder why so cold no matter what she did? You had in R what we are all wishing for.

The similarity in your and Buck's story is obvious--your personalities. They kind of scare me honestly, even through a keyboard.

This seems utterly insulting and uncalled for. Moderators?

Talk about projection. Ridiculous and offensive.

There is a play Whose Afraid Of Virginia Wolfe about a toxic marriage. It is truly depressing. Sometimes we get into “Yeah?!!?”, “Oh, yeah” trying to do one upmanship. Nobody wins. That’s what I’m trying to get across. Neither one of you are happy. Yet you started off your marriage in love with each other. You are never going to go back to those first heady years but you can become kind to each other again. I’m not a therapist, I’m not a marriage counselor, I’m just someone who worked with families and saw how quickly loving, caring people could turn into angry people. It’s just so useless because it does not get you anywhere.

I'm still going to pray for your wife, Buck. That's a shitty way to live. I can't even imagine staying in a relationship with that kind of contempt consistently directed at me.

I'm more curious about why you would not be praying buck as well.

Hypocrites caused more harm than most people with physical weapons throughout history.

I can't even imagine staying in a relationship with that kind of contempt consistently directed at me.

I couldn't imagine the kind of consistent unwarranted contempt a gaslighting wayward Proverbs 30:20 wife has for their faithful loyal and honorable husband.

Yet here we are.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:30 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

Buck,

Gently now.

You sound like you are still in pain, and your WS is also in pain. Your WS strayed, inflicted deep and life-changing pain upon you, then in turn, you wanted her to feel the pain you felt.

You know a secret? The best way to stop the pain, is to just stop the pain. It is not rocket science, but it is also not easy.

Sometimes it just means that the pain has to increase for a short period of time, before it goes away or lessens to such a degree that it does not bother you anymore....

You are at a crucial point in your life, and YOU are the only one that can determine how the rest of it is lived.

Am not proposing D or R, but it would be beneficial to you to make a decision so that you don't keep yourself in a state where it can lead to an early retirement from life.

Instead i was cold and in their eyes just casted her aside even as she she did everything she could to fix things.

Are they right? Thousands of people here doing everything to R. Nobody 'has to' R, but for those many who want to, we wonder why so cold no matter what she did? You had in R what we are all wishing for.

I have stated numerous times that I was ashamed by my actions and hated who I had become. For me, however what she did tainted her in a way I could never see her in the same light. As to what I had in R, it really didn’t matter to me. The damage was done. It wasn’t a WS who was all in to save the marrige I was wishing for I was wishing for a wife who didn’t do the things she did. End on t/j

Buck, I was having trouble taking off the last 5 pounds. I knew the reason was the eating after dinner and before bed. I would bargain with myself that I would only eat a small portion, or healthier, or nothing with sugar. I broke all the bargains with myself. Nothing worked.

Then I started intermittent fasting. Hard rule is no food after dinner and for me before 11A. The last 5 pounds plus more poured off. There was no ambiguity to this eating. No bargaining. For me the eating nothing broke the cycle.

This was the same with my EX. I woukd bargain with myself. You will be nicer, you will endeavor to spend more quality time with her like you did in the past. You will bring her presents for no reason. Much like the late night eating, I didn’t follow through with my bargains. Too much pain

It wasn’t until I told her that I was done could I start to find happiness. I had broken this cycle.

I am not in the pro or negative R camp. Each situation has its own nuances. But in your case, as was mine, the affair was a dealbreaker. To stay in this marrige with no real intention to truly save it will lead to years of unhappiness from both sides

I’ve gotten my pound of flesh but things don’t seem to be getting better when it comes to how I see her.

The reality, of course, is that you didn't get your pound of flesh. That's precisely the sticking point. Revenge rarely works. You hurt the other person, to be sure, but the dust settles and your pain is still there.

I see Buck, WWTL, and Thumos as sort of three sides of the same coin. In every case, y'all understand in your heart that you can no longer look at your WW with eyes of "in love with you". In every case, though, part of your decision is driven by a strange sort of twisted KISA impulse.

WWTL realized he could not treat his wife like an honorable husband should, so he did the right thing by her by leaving her.

Buck feels his WW will be lost if he leaves, so he stays with her, but the staying causes him to loathe her in a way that he cannot control. I think in his mind, though, his WW is better of with a husband who loathes her than as a divorcee with a scarlet A.

Thumos, you're waffling between those two. It's possible that the only thing stopping you from either course is your personal religious conviction, mixed with a genuine concern for your wife and family, because it's clear to me that your heart is in the place of D, like WWTL, and if you don't D, then craving an RA like Buck.

Here is a metaphor I've tossed around in my head from time to time. It's imperfect, but I thought I'd share. These mid-life crisis A's are so fraught. So many people to be hurt. So much sunk cost. The victims (the BS) also at the cusp between young and old, forced to contemplate a single life, with limited finances, at a time when happy retirement is becoming a visible horizon.

We talk here on SI about how the cheater always tries to characterize the A as a "mistake", when the reality is that the cheater normally makes a ton of decisions and choices to engage in the A, plotting and scheming carefully to maintain the secret and avoid detection. Imagine the perfect execution where a mid-life-crisis cheater pulls off a torrid PA without ever getting caught, satisfying the Jones, scratching the itch, then ending it and taking it to her grave. A tree falls in the forest and nobody hears and all that. I'd be willing to bet it happens a lot. In fact, I'd hazard it happens more with cheating wives than cheating husbands, because in a lot of cases men are self-absorbed and unobservant, women are smart and detail-oriented, meaning cheating husbands are more clumsy and likely to be caught, whereas betrayed husbands are less likely to notice the WW's cheating, especially if she is super-careful to hide her tracks.

But in the case of WWTL, Buck, and Thumos, the WW did get caught. Buck, forgive me because I forgot how you discovered your WW's A, but in the case of both Thumos and WWTL, the WW did in fact make a "mistake". The "mistake" wasn't the cheating, it was leaving a track uncovered in a manner that caught the BH's attention enough to lead him to investigate and uncover the truth. That is the "mistake".

Imagine that your WW starts secretly getting out of bed in the middle of the night and quietly amusing herself by holding a hot soldering iron near your junk. Closer and closer, her twisted sense of reality imagining what might happen if she actually burned you, taking secret joy in the power she has arrogated to herself, for herself, a weird sort of fulfillment. If she never burns you, and you never wake up, you'd never know. In the case of WWTL and Thumos, she slipped and burned your manhood with the iron. She made a "mistake". Afterwards, she's all tears and snot and "I'm sorry" and "what can I do to fix this," going full Stepford Wife and such.

But the reality is that your shit is burned and scarred, and will be for life, and she is the one who decided to engage in this wicked behavior because she felt a void in her soul and this was what she did to fill the void.

I don't really have any more. As I said, it's a partial idea, not wholly formed, but you get where I'm going. What do you do about your pain, and your legitimate anger about the person who carelessly caused it? I do mean "carelessly" -- that is, she knowingly engaged in behavior that could really hurt you, she chose that behavior because she wanted to do it more than she wanted to not cause the pain. "Care less". She had less care about your potential pain than she had about her desire to engage in the conduct. "Careless".

Out of the three of you, I see WWTL as the one who recognized the truth about himself and acted on that truth. "ILYBINILWY". He could not look at her with eyes of "in love" knowing that she is the kind of person who would make that sort of careless choice and, in so doing, hurt him in that way. Who can blame him? The hurt is irrevocable.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:42 AM, July 28th (Wednesday)]