SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Easy. I take the kids and we're done. Just that simple. I have the mental/emotional ability to do that now. Didn’t have it 4 1/2 years ago.

Do you mean if she cheats again or if she starts intentionally tearing you down with her words again? Sorry, I meant the latter when I asked. Mostly I'm curious to where you draw the line with general bad behavior from her moving forward aside from cheating.

It's the emotionally abusive piece, neko. Doesn't have to go all the way to infidelity for me to take my kids out of that situation.

Following this post, there better never be another post or comment by anyone asserting Mrs Capt simply doesn’t know any better and needs Capt’s guidance on how behave like a decent person. She has finally admitted what was evident to some of us all along that her behavior (which includes the groupie comment from last week) was deliberately cruel and manipulative.

While I’m sure you’re relieved Capt, and feel vindicated by this revelation, you should probably take some time to fully process the fact that your wife has actively spent years destroying you from the inside out. You never allowed yourself to entertain that possibility or considered the implications for your life and your future.

I also maintain that your wife is still incapable of experiencing pain or remorse for any person except herself. If she’s regretful of her behavior, it’s only because your own personal growth, particularly under the guidance of this therapist, has made her tactics much less effective. You deserve all the credit for the transformation in your dynamic, not her.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:40 PM, July 31st (Saturday)]

...you should probably take some time to fully process the fact that your wife has actively spent years destroying you from the inside out. You never allowed yourself to entertain that possibility or considered the implications for your life and your future.

Blue, you might want to re-read the part where I wrote:

I was shocked. For the first time in however many years, I wasn't the only one in this reality. Not only could someone else see it, but she flat out confessed to DOING it.

I did read that part quite clearly. I’m saying that you need to actually take time and process it. You always knew this was happening but you’ve been gaslit so badly that you’ve questioned your own judgment . In the past, you’ve contemplated that her behavior was simply due to her being obtuse and repeatedly asserted that underneath her stony facade there was a well of guilt and shame she was struggling to clamp down.

I don’t fault you for this; after all, this is the only woman you’ve ever loved and you got together at such a young age that she’s had a heavy hand in shaping the man you are now. She knows what buttons to push because she probably installed many of them.

Now that she’s acknowledged what she’s been doing this whole time, she’s taken off the mask and given you a good look at the monster that’s underneath, you now need to examine if this is what you want to wake up to every morning for the rest of your life.

I will give her a some credit for at least letting you know what you’re trying to reconcile with. I won’t be convinced that she is on any path to self-transformation or redemption until her actions reflect remorse, first and foremost starting with fully confessing the true extent of her affair.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:21 PM, July 31st (Saturday)]

Following this post, there better never be another post or comment by anyone asserting Mrs Capt simply doesn’t know any better and needs Capt’s guidance on how behave like a decent person. She has finally admitted what was evident to some of us all along that her behavior (which includes the groupie comment from last week) was deliberately cruel and manipulative.

Mic drop.

And I suspect this is the case more often than not with many WS’s.

Following this post, there better never be another post or comment by anyone asserting Mrs Capt simply doesn’t know any better and needs Capt’s guidance on how behave like a decent person. She has finally admitted what was evident to some of us all along that her behavior (which includes the groupie comment from last week) was deliberately cruel and manipulative.

Mic drop.

And I suspect this is the case more often than not with many WS’s.

She knows what buttons to push because she probably installed many of them.

Chilling. Insightful.

The Manipulated Man by Esther Villar makes much the same case writ large.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:34 PM, July 31st (Saturday)]

Well, I for one am crying some happy tears for you. May the road have fewer dips in the future.

I don't write these things to be seen as a victim.

And yet...

She deliberately treated you like shit for years (decades?) "on purpose," then betrayed you and planned to leave you for another man. It seems rather obvious to me that she really doesn't want to be in a relationship with you, doesn't love or respect you, and is probably baffled beyond comprehension that you're still committed to her (I know I am). It almost sounds like you've got "Stockholm Syndrome" or something (maybe that's normal for Cubs fans, I don't honestly know, of course). What is rather obvious, though, is that your wife has been abusive for a long, long time and no matter what she does to you, you're supposed to "cowboy up" and take it.

Where do you see all of this going? Do you honestly believe that one day you and Mrs Cap might have a loving, fulfilling relationship?

Serious question that I've been wondering for years, CaptainRogers. Why is it so important to you that you fix this marriage? Why do you need to be married to this particular woman so badly that you go through so many years, so much therapy and so much frustration? This latest thing could be viewed as validation of your feelings and that's great, but why did you need her to validate you like this? Who is she among all other human beings on this earth that is so important that you spent how much on therapy for her to finally say "Yes, I did all that abuse on purpose"? As if you can accidentally abuse a person?

You knew that you were being emotionally abused. You knew that she cheated on you. You know that she plays games with you to manipulate you. If you're honest with yourself, you know that this is just another manipulation tactic. She threw you some crumbs again and you're satisfied enough to stay. Again.

Why is this marriage so much more important than you are?

I forgot to address this statement from you in in my last comment, but I think it's a worthwhile follow up to Thumos and DD's comments:

I was the recipient of the brunt of everything. She was harsh & critical with the oldest ones when they were younger, but she never sought to hurt them or undermine them in any way that I recall.

I was the lucky recipient of every last bit of it.

It is extremely unlikely that a person who is abusive to their spouse, particularly one with the sociopathic traits demonstrated by your wife, isn't also abusive to the children. The behavior that you are present to observe is probably only a tenth of what the kids are actually experiencing.

You're probably correct that you bear the brunt of her emotional abuse... but only when you're around. When you're not around, which is most of the working day, some (if not all) of your kids are taking those invisible punches instead. If she's not dressing them down on a regular basis the way she does with you, it's because she doesn't really need to. Because you're kids are homeschooled, your wife is both their primary caregiver and the primary adult authority figure in their lives. It takes a bit more effort to maintain control over an adult who isn't under her thumb 24/7.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:18 PM, August 2nd (Monday)]

It almost sounds like you've got "Stockholm Syndrome" or something (maybe that's normal for Cubs fans, I don't honestly know, of course).

Purely a Northside quality. RiverChicken fans wouldn't understand.

why did you need her to validate you like this?

It isn't a validation of me or my feelings. It is validation that it happened, that I wasn't the only one there and that I wasn't making it up in my head. Just like someone seeing a shooting star, if there is another there to corroborate it, your eyes aren't likely playing tricks on you.

If you're honest with yourself, you know that this is just another manipulation tactic.

I disagree.

It is extremely unlikely that a person who is abusive to their spouse, particularly one with the sociopathic traits demonstrated by your wife, isn't also abusive to the children

She absolutely was with the two oldest until they were about 9 & 6 respectively. That was when #5 was born and had a myriad of health issues, including nearly dying twice in 12 months. It was when #5 was 3 months old that she flipped a switch, became massively protective of all the kids & everything magnified in intensity towards me 10-fold. About 3 years later, she "apologized" by saying "I haven't treated you right, that's all that needs said about it..." but never actually made a change in how she continued to treat me.

And no, I haven't been around throughout the days because of my practice. But just jumping to the assumption that she is emotionally abusive and I haven't ever seen it is a bit of a jump, I think. I believe that I would see it in their interactions with her (I spent years in the education world and have been trained to see the signs of abusive behavior in kids). I saw many of those signs in my two oldest when they were younger. I haven't seen any of those for years.

Why is it so important to you that you fix this marriage?

I guess that my response is "Why shouldn't it be?" I made a vow...she threw hers away. There is the technicality of divorce being "allowed" for infidelity. But if I don't want to go that route, why WOULDN'T I want to fix this and have a good to great relationship with her?

Captain, I will reiterate: abuse does not happen in a vacuum. More to the point, empathy is not something a person can put on and take off like a hat. If she doesn’t possess it with you, she doesn’t with her kids either. Didn’t one of your younger kids cry just recently because your wife can’t seem to be bothered with him or her?

Furthermore, going from berating her oldest kids to smothering them isn’t particularly healthy or well-adjusted behavior either. In fact, that’s a demonstration of the same tactic she is pulling on you in therapy right now.

You are willing to take anything she dishes out at you; that much is apparent. But contemplating what she’s dishing out to the kids— either overtly or covertly— is too much to bear because that require you to do something about it. This is just more and more avoidance.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:03 PM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]

Hello CaptainRogers.

I hope it's okay for me to post on your thread. Please disregard if not.

First, I can see that it was tremendous for you that your WW finally admitted what she was intentionally doing to you and abusing you for all those years. That validation that what you've been saying happened actually happened and not because you said it but because the abuser admitted it must have been very powerful for you. I'm happy you got them from her.

The question I have is why? Why was she so admittedly abusive to you for 20 years? Has she expressed that? Is she just a horrible person who has been wearing a mask for so long? Has she said anything to explain it in any way? Is she exploring that in her IC sessions? What, if anything, did you do wrong in her mind (not that you did, but something was there from her POV)? Or does she recognize that this was all her? I guess I'm asking because while the acknowledgment of her behavior is a big step, there has to be a why in there too. Personally, I think that once you get past this feeling of her finally validating your experiences, that will start gnawing at you. Kind of a "I had to live this way for 20 years, why?" And you will want and need answers to that from her.

Is she just a horrible person who has been wearing a mask for so long?

Often, it's just this simple.

As I've said in the past, I believe we don personas like costumes in our teens and twenties. These costumes start growing shabby and thin as we grow older and it takes more psychic energy to sustain them. Some people gladly shed the costume to let their authentic self emerge. Others are terrified that when their authentic self emerges, people won't like what they see. When the mask finally does drop, it amounts to just this: they are a horrible person.

Mrs. Walloped, you are always welcome to post on my threads. Never worry about doing that at all.

The question I have is why? Why was she so admittedly abusive to you for 20 years? Has she expressed that?

In short, the answer is 'yes'. That piece of our discussion in the session too up probably 30 minutes or so. She talked about how it was related to issues with her dad, how she wanted him to be more forceful with customers and to not be "taken advantage of" (in her eyes).

From there, it turned towards me and was her incorrect way of initially trying to use her training skills to make me more assertive. Think of it as the coach who berates a player in order to motivate them...sort of 1980s Bobby Knight at Indiana, if you will.

Eventually, though, she felt more "powerful" and "in control" and continued craving that feeling, which fed into her independence, etc., etc., and down the spiraling path we went.

Initially, it wasn't so much of what I did wrong, per se, as much as it was her trying to "fix" what she perceived as wrong with me.

From there, it became a power/control thing and the rest is history.

This latest thing could be viewed as validation of your feelings and that's great, but why did you need her to validate you like this?

This is an excellent question. For me this originates in childhood, as it does with many others. Because I chased love from that parent, I've learned comfort in chasing love and continue to do it. Seeking validation from those reluctant to give it is never healthy. The healthy reaction, what we would want for our own children, is to detach from those who choose to undervalue us.

it isn't a validation of me or my feelings. It is validation that it happened

Semantics. You do not want to see yourself honestly, Captain. That's ok. We're all that way. But you can't change what you won't admit, as we all know.

She had great sorrow in her eyes. She apologized in ways I've never heard her apologize before. Specific. Owned. Heartfelt. Recognizing the depths of the knife stabbing over and over and over.

This is a validation of your feelings that you are talking about. She did it. Her admitting it to you should not have been a goal. Her not admitting it should have been a dealbreaker long ago. Should you have felt such joy at being validated years later? That means HER VIEW is so important to you. Where is the anger at how long it has taken and what it has done to you? Who is protecting you in this M?

At one point, we had discussed the Codependent/Narcissist scale that goes from -5 (CoD) to +5 (Narc). My wife said "For most of our marriage...I'd give myself a +5...or more...especially when I was stramrolling him about everything." I'm better now. More like a +1.5.

So for most of your marriage you were a -5. You know that, right? Narcissistic relationships are built on balancing that number. Narcissists and codependents are the peanut butter and jelly of dysfunctional relationships. And your chasing a narcissist's validation makes you 50% of the problem in this M. I hope you can see this so that you can work on it instead of working on her. We break the cycle when we change ourselves, not when we go to MC and only hope to change our partner. If we choose to stay with someone who treats us poorly, we are 50% or more of the reason that we are treated poorly.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:26 AM, August 5th (Thursday)]

I see most of these messages being protective of Cap, as they should be, but there seem to be a few summary judgements mixed in there as well.

Cap, I think you know EXACTLY what the score is and who your wife is. The new news is, she is finally owning her part in this (at least more than ever before) — and that’s progress to me.

I also understand why you haven’t changed the locks on the front door.

You’re a man of faith, a man who loves his family and is simply sacrificing quite a bit in order to keep what you love in one piece.

I just hope your wife not only owns some of her poor actions and poor choices. I hope she does something about it.

You’ve done far more than most to keep this relationship alive, and I think you’ll actually need a LOT of help from her going forward.

Everyone has a breaking point. I really hope you know you didn’t owe her this last chance and you are allowed to break and be done.

I was definitely in a similar spot, I wanted to keep my end of my vows held up, I wanted to restore my family, I wanted to be able to look inward and to my faith and know I did all I could to keep this thing together.

The strongest of us here cannot heal a relationship alone. I actually think you know that too. Which is why I hope she does more than understand what she did, and to repeat with emphasis — that she does SOMETHING about it.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 11:04 AM, August 5th (Thursday)]

Oldwounds +1

From there, it turned towards me and was her incorrect way of initially trying to use her training skills to make me more assertive. Think of it as the coach who berates a player in order to motivate them...sort of 1980s Bobby Knight at Indiana, if you will.

I understand this (even though I had to ask my husband who Bobby Knight was ) and the slope she went down as she became the powerful one in your relationship and that dynamic escalated and permeated your M.

I'm glad she expressed this and again that she acknowledged that she had done this to you for so long.

So what is she doing about it now? Besides MC? Is she working on addressing those feelings and highs she got from being in power and in control? If she is working on shifting the power dynamic and letting go, then how is she feeding her need for that high? Or how is she dealing with not getting it?

It seems like she requires a real shift in her mindset and the way she deals with you, which is some pretty heavy lifting on her part. Is she up for it?

So what is she doing about it now? Besides MC? Is she working on addressing those feelings and highs she got from being in power and in control? If she is working on shifting the power dynamic and letting go, then how is she feeding her need for that high? Or how is she dealing with not getting it?

She went back to IC about a year ago and has been very consistent with it. My guess is that this is where the more recent "breakthroughs" are coming from.

Everyone has a breaking point. I really hope you know you didn’t owe her this last chance and you are allowed to break and be done.

Oldwounds, it is good to hear from you, my friend. I hope that the traveling has kept you within earshot of your Os. Trey Mancini at the Home Run Derby was awesome.

And yes, I know that I didn't/don't owe her anything. And yes, it is that mercy & grace part that said "If you want to really work on it this time, I will be an active participant...but if this is more about growing the picture of me as a villain...I'm done." She has put in the effort and has, I think, done some real, deep work so far with her IC.

We will see how much further it continues to go.