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Newest Member: worthyofgood

Wayward Side :
Should I accept this is what he needs to heal?

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moonshadow ( new member #28735) posted at 2:16 AM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

Honestly, burnt? In your shoes I'd stop apologizing as well. He's already said that your apologies don't mean anything to him, so there's no point to continuing it. Just do the 180.

posts: 31   ·   registered: Jun. 7th, 2010
id 4842207
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 burntashes (original poster member #29446) posted at 7:37 AM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

I would bet these last statements are the honeymoon phase after an abusive incident. He's going to wait a bit and then do as he damn well pleases, he'll just bide his time...

From how you describe him, I wouldn't doubt that his daughter is just a pawn in his game, he does love you, loves abusing you.

I didn't believe a word of this warning last time he told me he was done seeing other women. I was so convinced surely my BH, the honest man I married, would not be so cruel. Surely the loving father he had been, he would never use DD as a pawn. It's sad, so sad to have to admit now, that you all have been right all along. I have changed him so much because of my affair, his anger is blinding his reason and sense of values.

He yelled at me in front of DD tonight. I asked him to wait until DD goes to bed, but he just went on and on. He didn't call me names, but kept asking DD if mommy brought her to meet with her boyfriend (I told him of one time going to a mall briefly with xOM and brought DD...I know, shameful shameful, uggh, I am so ashamed). He yelled about how I was cheating and f**king someone else in front of DD. He said he would bring DD to go out with his girlfriends (he emphasized "s") saying "it's ok for you right? then it's ok for me." I ask him please don't, that what I did was wrong and it doesn't make sense to do what he knows is wrong, but he said he doesn't want to know better now. He said it was so great that I could screw up and then come back and expect him to uphold his moral benchmark. He said he wants to be me now, to f**k around and not know any better. I said please don't use DD, and if he insists on revenge to please keep DD out of it, but he just kept saying if it was ok for me then it is ok for him now. I think I made him angry because last night he asked how I could bring DD to meet xOM, and I said I thought it was OK at the time because we didn't do anything with DD there and just walked around, but I know now that my thinking was wrong and I really shouldn't have done that. But H is stuck on the I thought it was OK part, and insisted that I still think it's ok. I said I don't think so now, but he said only after he said it's not OK. He said my sense of morality, just like everything else about me, is based on him, that I'd never been anything on my own. He said he's sorry that DD has a mother like me, that I have nothing to teach DD because she already knows more than I ever could. He repeated that I have zero personality and that DD has more personality than I could. I am so sorry to see him this way. I'v ruined a good honest man. I know those are his choices, but it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for my selfish cruel actions. I'm so sorry.

There's no doubt now that R is not a possibility. He said he couldn't wait to get rid of me. I know he's telling the truth. I think I need to move on. The marriage I wanted so much to salvage is already gone. A little family torn apart, because of me. It's sad. I have to move on now. I feel strangely numb. Maybe like he said, his sleeping around made it easier for me to move on emotionally, but he sure didn't do it for me. I hope this is a temporary state for him, that he finds his former good self in time. I'm just sad that I damaged him so much.

[This message edited by burntashes at 1:48 AM, October 8th (Friday)]

Me: WW/MH 30s Him: 40s 1 Kid
LTA, not divorced

posts: 387   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: California
id 4842529
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lostperfection4 ( member #28961) posted at 9:08 AM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

I'm so sorry to hear you're going through this... it seems like you are gradually realizing what you have to do. It is painful, but you must continue.

You are doing the right thing by pulling away. Do not doubt this.

When you find yourself doubting this, remember this fact (which you have seen here multiple times, phrased in different ways):

The only way you can help your husband is to be very, very strong and 180 (look out for yourself).

With his level of pain and instability, it is going to take him a long time to get better. Every time you show weakness and give in to your love, you are making it harder for both of you to move on.

He said he couldn't wait to get rid of me. I know he's telling the truth.

He is telling the truth... you are right; however, be ready for him to tell his OTHER truth: he still very much loves you and wants to stay together.

He thinks both things, and he can't get better until he is forced to pick one by being alone.

You have seen it before, and you will see it again. He is going to realize he's really losing you and then his message will change. He'll seem like a different man.

Don't forget the words of those who are trying to help you. Our words keep becoming the truth. You have mentioned this now many times. Believe us.

-----

Sometime in your near future, you might have to look him in the face and say "no" to his repeated pleas of apologies and promises to change.

If you cannot say "no" at this time, over and over again, and walk away...

well...

then you're just making HIS pain last even longer.

Me: WBF (20's)
Her: BGF (20's)

many d-days, still in limbo

- Hiding your past is a great way to guarantee a future you won't be satisfied with -

posts: 449   ·   registered: Jul. 4th, 2010
id 4842563
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SouthernGal ( member #27315) posted at 12:17 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

Burnt -

My heart breaks for you reading your posts.

Here's an important truth. You cannot make someone into something they are not through something as limited in scope as an affair, even trickle truth.

I believe that through years of repeated physical and emotional abuse you can change someone.

But if your affair and trickle truth was enough to turn him into the man you describe then why aren't other BS's turning into this type of person by the dozens?

I believe, with all my heart and mind, BA, that your A and TT created a lot of pain and anger - which uncovered who and what he has truly been all along.

You didn't make him this way.

A spouse who is hurting after the discovery of an A does not ask their spouse to watch them have sex with someone else.

Your husband is sick. He needs to heal. But he cannot do that if you are there.

You are broken and you need to heal. But you cannot do that if you are there.

The dynamic you have going on is really messed up. If you don't get away from it you cannot break it. If these cycles aren't broken you'll keep going in the same pointless circles indefinitely.

Do the 180. But do it completely. Do not continue to apologize to him. It doesn't make any difference. He won't accept it - but it will make him feel more powerful and "prove" to him how awful you are.

I understand not wanting to get lawyers involved, but I think you need to. It is for your own protection.

Do you really think you can come to terms for a divorce settlement and trust him? I mean one moment he loves you and wants you and the next moment he's telling you that you're awful and he cannot wait for you to be gone.

In that last I strongly suggest giving him what he wants.

[This message edited by SouthernGal at 6:49 AM, October 8th (Friday)]

BS (Me) XWH (him) M nearly 16 yrs
1 DD (teens)
D-day #1 12/09, #2 2/10
Divorced 10/6/10

posts: 3862   ·   registered: Jan. 22nd, 2010   ·   location: The Deep (Fried) South
id 4842609
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Fighting2Survive ( member #28410) posted at 12:36 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

I'v ruined a good honest man. I know those are his choices, but it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for my selfish cruel actions. I'm so sorry.

BA,

As SG said, if this were true then many of us BS's would behave the way your H is.

You didn't ruin him any more than than you are responsible for his slapping you.

His abuse began long before your A. The A just gave him good ammunition to use against you any time he pleases.

You are not responsible for his behavior. You might have had an A, but you didn't take away his free will. He's making that decision. Please stop trying to own his choices and his behavior.

Me: BW, 40.......Him: FWH, 40
D-day: 3-22-10
DS1: 11, DS2: crawling
Status: R going well

"When you can tell the story and it doesn't bring up any pain, you know it is healed." - Iyanla Vanzant, Broken Pieces

posts: 7279   ·   registered: Apr. 30th, 2010   ·   location: NC
id 4842620
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JanaGreen ( member #29341) posted at 12:48 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

YOU did not ruin him. YOU did not turn him from a good upstanding perfect holy wonderful man into this POS he is now. HE IS SHOWING HIS TRUE COLORS.

How DARE he ask a four-year-old that question. How DARE HE put her in that position. He is truly a reprehensible human being.

posts: 9505   ·   registered: Aug. 17th, 2010   ·   location: Southeast US
id 4842628
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justsoshocked ( member #24980) posted at 1:10 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

BA, as I've said in previous posts, my biggest fear now is the abuse cycle getting more ominous....

Think about what he could do to hurt you beyond imagination...

There are very broken human beings who use their children to hurt their spouses...I am scared your H will hurt you, or hurt your daughter to hurt you...out of pure revenge. It happens..and it's very scary.

It's probably not a scenario you have considered but it's one I bet many of us who have been following your story can see as a possibility...

Your H could literally "snap" and decide to kill you or DD...I'm not trying to sound melodramtic...I'm basing this fear on what he has been capable of in the past and how he perceives you...in other words, if he can honestly feel you are worthless, then what's to stop him from really trying to harm you?

I know you will say he would never do anything to DD, but if he holds her in such little regard as to use her as a pawn in this sick game he is playing...what if he really is capable of going to the next dangerous level...

In a way I hope this scares you, so you can finally escape from him and take DD somewhere safe...I'm praying for both of you. (((BA)))

Me, 42 BW
Him, 39, FWH
D-day: 4th of July 2009.
Three kids, 2,5,and 7
Still in R...so far, so good.
Living my life...loving my kids....even enjoying my M again...:)

posts: 2168   ·   registered: Jul. 28th, 2009   ·   location: SC
id 4842648
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Trying2Survive2 ( member #25758) posted at 1:19 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

Burnt:

I've read this entire thread..and I hope i can make this short and sweet.

Miles and miles of:

He says i am this..

He says i am that..

He molded me from nothing to this...he molded me from nothing to that...

He has defined your sense of self all the way around.

You have no sense of self at the moment. You are a mere reflection of whatever picture he paints of you at any given moment my dear.

I can't wait for the day when..you make the break, because the real YOU is emerging....

You ...YOU!!

Not the picture he paints.

You will certainly have to grieve the loss, both good and bad. But nothing can be worse than the reality you are living..

Then one day my dear...

You will begin to allow your very own sense of self emerge. One step at a time, yes , you will be imperfect..imagine that...

But at least you will have a sense of your very own self, and can begin to work on YOU!!

YOU are not what ANYBODY else in this world says you are.

I'm hoping you will understand this on some level....

I'm excited for that day...I see it coming..

HUGS!!!!

Faithful Wife ME 52
FWH 47
DDAY #1 1/11/09 EA Online ONLY (NC)
DDAY #2 6/2010 Admitted PA with the same PIG(12/08)
"Anything may be betrayed, anyone may be forgiven, but not those who lack the courage of their own greatness"

posts: 1376   ·   registered: Oct. 6th, 2009   ·   location: USA
id 4842655
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mactruck ( member #29791) posted at 2:32 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

((BA))

My husband also told me that he did not want lawyers involved. He played mind games on me about how if the courts were involved I'd lose my kids.

I finally broke down and found a lawyer to talk to. It was free. I had about an hour. I had questions prepared and ready. The relief I got after speaking to him has stayed with me. I know he will NEVER be able to take my kids away from me. He also gave me very sound reasonable LEGAL advise.

Most companies have what is called an EAP program. It’s an program that agives you free counseling or legal advise or many other benefits. It’s 100% confidental. Talk to your HR person at your company and ask if there is EAP available and what that phone # is. When you get the # ask for counseling and a lawyer. It’s FREE, if you have it.

I have some things for you to ponder. You say that you love him. But what is it that you love about him? Really ask yourself this. Why does a person love another? Is it because they bought you flowers and said you are pretty. Or is it WHO that person is? I was taught this when I was convinced I “cared about the xOM. I didn’t understand love. It was a feeling I felt. Then once I thought about WHY I love my BH then answer was clear. It was who he is. My BH is very hurt; you know this because you responded to my thread. But he is still the same man with the same integrity he always had.

I've learned a lot on my journey. I learned about commitment and conviction. Let me explain, because I’m not taking about commitment to a marriage. Commitment to yourself. If all us WS had commitment to our morals and fundamental beliefs NOT ONE OF US would be here.

Define for yourself what your morals are for yourself. They can be whatever you want them to be. But clearly sit down and define them. Then ask why these morals are important to you. If one of your morals is “I will not tolerate my husband yelling at me.” Then ask yourself why this is important to you. “I do not want my DD raised in this atmosphere because it’s unhealthy”. Then ask why again. “Because it can cause serious physiological effects on her”. I think you get where I’m going here.

Morals become priorities. Priorities become core.

Like HUFF says in every single one of his posts:

DECIDE.CHOOSE.COMMIT.PERIOD

Change is scary, but it’s a temporary state. I believe Einstein said something along the lines of – What is insanity? Doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results.

There is no spell check. My typing is horrible... Therefore I apologize for errors.

I pray everyday for forgiveness.

posts: 149   ·   registered: Oct. 6th, 2010
id 4842768
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HUFI-PUFI ( member #25460) posted at 3:09 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

Burntashes - I'm just sad that I damaged him so much.

((( BA )))

Yes, there is no doubt that your affair was the catalyst for a lot of change in your husband. Sad but true. However, on the flip side, his reaction to your affair is also damaging to you.

If you recall in my other post, I talked about the making conscious decisions instead of emotional choices. Making emotional choices can often backfire on people. For example, your decision to have an affair was an emotional choice and as a result of that, you are now facing the consequences of your infidelity.

But on the other hand, your husband, faced with having to deal with your infidelity, has also decided to deal with this stress by lashing out with his emotional reaction including verbal and physical abuse.

You followed up that bad emotional choice with the conscious decision to fight for your marriage and to do what is necessary to repair your marriage. You have to ask yourself, what type of choice is your H making in this regard? Instead of making a conscious decision to fight for his marriage, he is still stuck in the emotional choice of anger and control.

Whereas it unusually takes a D-day to bring the WS to make that choice, I think that you have to practice the 180 at the least, in order to force your husband to make his choice. IF he can’t or won’t, then you will be forced to make a tough choice. Can you live with him and live with his anger and his belittling and his verbal abuse?

We all recognize that this is a hard decision to make. It’s not easy to give up on a marriage when you feel guilt and shame over creating the mess in the first place. But if you stay out of duty and a sense of responsibility, then you are perpetrating a deceit on yourself once again.

HUFI - Don't listen to your heart, its fickle. Don't listen to your mind, its easily confused. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

As a WS, you know that feeling that you have let yourself down morally and ethically when you had your affair. You know what shame and guilt and self loathing feels like from that bad choice. You are now facing another pivotal point in your life. You can repeat the same mistake again and make another emotional choice or you can do what is right and make a conscious decision as to where your life will be taking you.

HUFI

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own. And you know what you know. You are the guy who'll decide where to go.

Don’t listen to your head, it’s easily confused. Don’t listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

posts: 3320   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2009   ·   location: Azilda, Northern Ontario
id 4842846
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Kamkim ( member #29672) posted at 5:33 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

As a mother, I want to take your DD and give her a hug. No child should have to live like this. Please get her out of that situation.

posts: 2556   ·   registered: Sep. 21st, 2010
id 4843144
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 burntashes (original poster member #29446) posted at 6:05 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

When H started telling me how there's nothing to me last night, I told him to stop, that I won't listen to such insults or believe them. He laughed at me and said "oh you are so big now, all the articles you read make you a big girl? Should I hear you roar now woman?" It used to make me doubt any realizations I came to, thinking that I'm just exactly as he predicted. But I feel so strange now. One voice in my head says here's the husband I love and he knows better, and the other says look at what's really happening, don't let sentimental feelings change reality. It's surreal.

This morning H said he would never use DD for that, that he was just saying that so that I could know how it feels to be him, the pain he feels. I'm getting a bit scared of him, the him I'm seeing. One time a week ago after he was angry with me he wanted intimacy but talked about whores, I felt that he was seeing me as one and was reluctant. He said "Hey it's still me, remember?" I thought yeah, how stupid I was to feel scared of him. But I almost left the house last night. He needs us to stay at the same place for a year so that he can save up enough to be on his own. He's convinced that I should have no problem with the arrangment, that he's not going to look for any relationship outside, and if his mind changes in that time I may have a chance at R with him. But I feel like I don't know this him anymore. I don't know what to believe when he tells me something. I don't trust him. Our minds are in such separate places, him convinced that I should be so glad he's staying, and me feeling apprehansive about staying with him any longer. He has shown such contempt for women, for people in my culture, for me. I don't know if I want to live in a relationship where there's no respect for me, even if he does stop messing around. I'm afraid of how I'm feeling.

Me: WW/MH 30s Him: 40s 1 Kid
LTA, not divorced

posts: 387   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: California
id 4843209
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lost_in_toronto ( member #25395) posted at 6:14 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

I'm the BS, and I want to say this very clearly but also very carefully because I do not in any way want to offend any other BSs here on this forum. Every situation is different, and it is important to recognize that. I am speaking directly to this situation and I am doing so from my own position.

A little family torn apart, because of me.

You are certainly responsible for the pain and the anger that your husband has experienced due to your choice to have an affair. (I'm not sure how to "abbreviate" your husband; BH does not reflect the choices he is making now, so I am calling him your husband with the inference that he is both betrayed and wayward hopefully understood by thos reading.) But you are in no way responsible for the way that your husband is choosing to respond to that pain and that anger.

Let me try to clarify using my own situation:

When my WS had his affair, the world came crashing down on my head. I could not believe that he would do that to me, that he would do that to himself. I can remember, on dday, wanting to scream at him: "you are just like your father." I was so angry and so hurt and I knew that I could hurt my WS the worst by saying that to him. But even in the craziness that was my dday I knew that I could not say that to him because I could not ever, ever take it back. I could not ever undo hurting him like that.

Moving forward, R was not an easy process. My WS lied and TTd for months. He broke NC but lied about it. He was never really sure he wanted to commit to us. It was torture for me, it truly was. But I chose to stay because I chose him, it was that simple. And I had my angry days, and I lashed out, and I did say hurtful things. But through that whole time, I also was very aware of myself, and who I am and what I expect of myself. And I was determined that the affair would not be an excuse for my own bad behaviour. That wasn't perfect, I'm not saying I never acted inappropriately. There were moments when I barely held myself in check. But in the end we are responsible for only ourselves and our own actions and choices. You in no way are responsible for the choices your husband is making right now. He is using your affair as an excuse for his own terrible choices and treatment of you. You cannot let this go on.

You family is certainly being torn apart. You affair contributed to this, undoubtedly. But the fight you describe above? The things your husband yelled at you in front of your daughter? Those are your husband's actions and his alone, and they will do a thorough job of tearing your family apart as well. What your family is going through may be your fault; but it is certainly not ALL your fault. I really, truly hope you can recognize that (and I believe that you are beginning to).

I think I need to move on.

I think you're probably right about this. But not because your husband can't "wait to get rid of you." Because you know in your heart that this has become an incredibly unhealthy situation for all of you, and especially for your daughter.

I hope that you have family in the States. I suspect that you don't. One way that this kind of systemic emotional abuse takes place is by a process of isolating the abused. I can see clearly that coming here and reading other opinions about your experiences has been an affirming experience. I hope that if you do have family near by you will reach out to them right now. I think you need as many people as possible affirming for you that your reality right now is not okay. And it isn't. It simply isn't. You deserve so much more than this. Infidelity is not an excuse for betrayed spouses to become abusive - or more abusive - and carry on their own affairs. (((burnashes)))

[This message edited by lost_in_toronto at 12:18 PM, October 8th (Friday)]

Me: BS/48
Him: WS/46
DDay: August 23, 2009
Together 23 years.
Reconciled.

posts: 1806   ·   registered: Sep. 2nd, 2009   ·   location: not toronto anymore
id 4843219
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SouthernGal ( member #27315) posted at 6:20 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

(((Burnt)))

Feeling conflicted is normal. It is part of ending a relationship as intimate as a marriage.

But please, listen to your gut. You are starting to awaken from an overlong "sleep" in which he controlled everything, including how you see yourself.

You know that you're worth more than this. You know that it isn't right to let your daughter see you treated like this.

Several things you've written have shown him to have very little regard for women in general and less for you.

No matter what you have done wrong in your life and your marriage you deserve better than that.

It is okay to stand up for yourself.

If you don't feel safe staying then don't stay.

BS (Me) XWH (him) M nearly 16 yrs
1 DD (teens)
D-day #1 12/09, #2 2/10
Divorced 10/6/10

posts: 3862   ·   registered: Jan. 22nd, 2010   ·   location: The Deep (Fried) South
id 4843225
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justsoshocked ( member #24980) posted at 6:28 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

BA, I believe that your survival instincts are beginning to kick in....that's ok...in fact it's really awesome. Let your strength grow...let it move you and DD in a healthier direction...away from BH/WH.

You do not have to settle for this "crazy making" situation for a year...speak to an attorney.

Me, 42 BW
Him, 39, FWH
D-day: 4th of July 2009.
Three kids, 2,5,and 7
Still in R...so far, so good.
Living my life...loving my kids....even enjoying my M again...:)

posts: 2168   ·   registered: Jul. 28th, 2009   ·   location: SC
id 4843242
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UnexpectedSong ( member #21761) posted at 6:31 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

How did you two meet? Was he looking for a "naive" (his word), subservient woman that he could "mold" (his word) into something he could control?

And now you are in a different culture from the one you were born into, you have a beautiful daughter, you are the primary breadwinner and have been for some time, and you are discovering yourself, growing, maturing. You are well-written, clearly intelligent, and I believe (in spite of your husband's words) that you are a good mother. You are so capable!

We all know an affair is never a solution to any problems; it is a secret (and misguided) way of rebelling (at least, you hope it is a secret, that it would never be discovered). Divorce is an open statement - you could not secretly divorce him and express your growth, your maturing.

You now see him for what he is, what he has always been. The future is in your hands. You are in control for the first time. I wish you strength. As a woman with your own mind, yes, you roar! Be proud of that.

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 12:33 PM, October 8th (Friday)]

WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

posts: 6421   ·   registered: Nov. 24th, 2008   ·   location: California
id 4843250
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JanaGreen ( member #29341) posted at 6:46 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

Any man with that level of contempt for women in general CANNOT be a good father to a daughter. It's impossible.

posts: 9505   ·   registered: Aug. 17th, 2010   ·   location: Southeast US
id 4843272
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Teacherman2000 ( member #6683) posted at 6:46 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

Burnt, you are learning fast. I am curious as to where you are from and what your culture is. Don't share anything you aren't comfortable with.

When I read your post about what your ws said to your dd I almost posted in a rage. That's nearly, right up to the very edge of unforgivable.

When you are able to detach more, you will only respond to your husband calmly and won't try to argue.

His comment about you thinking you're so big now that you've read some articles... We all need to learn and improve - him more than anyone I know. Yes, you are becoming stronger or "bigger" because of the knowledge you are gaining. You've heard "knowledge is power"? :) It is.

So he wants you to live in this abusive situation and support him for a year while he gets his act together? No freakin' way. I know you don't want to hurt him financially, but he doesn't get this from you. It won't be easy, but he'd be fine on his own. We all find a way and he will too. Don't doubt that at all.

All those comments about "the way you are" are designed only to hurt you and keep you weak and controlable. (By the way, this is likely not a well thought out master plan by him to dominate you. It's just what your relationship has devolved into. Even very small children learn manipulative things to say.) His comments that you caused him to do anything are also way wrong. You don't have that much control over anyone except yourself! Again, he's trying to hurt you and lay on the guilt, and he's doing it in a very childish, immature way. This is not a man you are married to. This is an adolesent's level of maturity in an adult body.

Perhaps your culture has taught you that the woman is subservient to the man. While this in itself is not horrible, it only works if the man adopts a position of "Servant Leader". He should lead his family by serving his family in every possible way and making sure everyone's needs, emotionally and physically, are being met. I've heard it said that a man should love his family as Christ loved the church. I'm not qualified in any way to preach to you, but I really understand that concept. In the hands of a abuser, the concept of the woman as subservient to the man becomes a horrible failure.

If you are in the US, you would likely get shared custody with one of you - probably you - as the primary custodial parent. His rights to see his daughter would only be restricted if he continues to involve her between you two.

Here is something you need to do now, and I mean today. Start documenting everyting and do it in a safe place. Over the next few days or weeks, I would write down all the abusive things you can remember that he has said and done to you and dd. Put dates, times, etc., and then keep it going like a journal. If it comes to a battle in court - hopefully not, depends on him - you will need this to help you.

Lastly here, you said you changed him by your affair. You did not. You don't have the power to do that. I've been on SI for more than 5 years and although I've read some heartwrenching stories, I've never read about a bs doing this kind of thing. I hope you are getting me here. You hurt him for sure, but he was always this way on the inside. He's just not really restraining himself with you anymore.

[This message edited by Teacherman2000 at 12:50 PM, October 8th (Friday)]

Me - BS/48
Her - XWS/44
DDay - 4 December 2004
Several more ddays to follow, the last one in July 2009.
Long boring story where I do nearly everything wrong.

"Waiting for my real life to begin." Colin Hay

posts: 1061   ·   registered: Mar. 18th, 2005   ·   location: Tennessee
id 4843274
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 burntashes (original poster member #29446) posted at 9:48 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

How did you two meet? Was he looking for a "naive" (his word), subservient woman that he could "mold" (his word) into something he could control?

We met at work. He had bad experiences from past relationships where his ex cheated on him. He liked my innocence and thought I had a lot of potential to grow. I never thought of it that way, but I think in some way it's true. I don't think it was what he was looking for, and his complain the last few years has been that I needed to be taught so much. One of the questions in the book I am reading about whether to stay in a relationship alarmed me: "Can you really be yourself without criticism?" My answer is no.

Do the 180. But do it completely. Do not continue to apologize to him. It doesn't make any difference. He won't accept it - but it will make him feel more powerful and "prove" to him how awful you are.

I broke down this morning and told him I was sorry for betraying him. He said even certain ordinary event makes him sick, why couldn't I have put our family first. I hate seeing him hurt. I said I wasn't thinking right, but I recognize how wrong it is now. This only led him back into the well if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander talk. He still thinks I'm lying to him today. I understand the mistrust, but I wish there's a way for me to help him know that I truely am sorry and it bothers me a lot that I caused him so much pain. I don't understand why he seems to refuse to hear my remorse. When I point that out he only responds with I am telling him yet again how he's a bad guy. It seems that what SG said here is true. I wonder if he even knows that's what he's doing. I have a very hard time seeing/believing him in this light.

I do have family nearby. I told my husband that I don't want DD to see us fight and experience the tension, that maybe it's best if I stay at my family's place with DD then we can both see DD each day while sparing her the conflict. He said I am still being selfish, thinking that I can screw around and now demand morality from him. He said DD staying at relative's house would traumatize her because it wouldn't feel home, while she can sleep in her own bed at home. He said it's mostly peaceful in the house unless I/he start some sh*t, and it's not often. I told him that I'm concerned that DD feels the tension if we aren't working on a relationship and he has no respect for me. He laughs and said "So you are a good mother now? What kind of mother were you when you..." I went into apologies again, but it just gets no where. I asked if we could schedule time to talk each day (he complained that I just don't want to suffer the consequences of my actions), but he refused saying he feels what he feels at any given time, that he doesn't do appointments. I don't want DD staying at a place that isn't our home, and he can't afford to move out and I don't want to make things hard for him. He said I kept talking about relationship but there's no relationship, only necessity and arrangement. I feel he's expecting me to comply with everything he wants, which I am willing to help him anyway I can, but he refuses to have good will toward me. I know I've hurt him badly, but this doesn't seem very reasonable.

I'm reading a book about how to respond to verbal abuse, but the fact that this is the aftermath of my affair just makes the situation so complicated. If I have to stay, I need to know how to talk to him, but I can't just say stop or walk away when he accuses me of whatever. How do I do the 180 when he's hurting? But apologizing is going nowhere either. He said if I was really remorseful I'd be more quiet and reflective. And on top of it now I am not sure I can be happy being with him if he would never change. Such a crappy situation. I am not sure what's best.

[This message edited by burntashes at 4:09 PM, October 8th (Friday)]

Me: WW/MH 30s Him: 40s 1 Kid
LTA, not divorced

posts: 387   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: California
id 4843661
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SouthernGal ( member #27315) posted at 10:26 PM on Friday, October 8th, 2010

180 - 180 - 180 ... oh and did I mention 180

I really think you should stop apologizing to him. It seems to me, from what you say about your apologies, that you are not just apologizing and showing remorse. You are, effectively, debasing yourself. And he gets a rush from it.

My ex-husband did this to me for 6 months. I was trying to "win him back." To show him that I had changed and was changing. Which I had and I was. I was trying to show him my remorse.

Now bear in mind this was before I knew about the A. I was showing remorse for things I did during my period of unaddressed depression. For yelling. For being mean. For fighting "to win" and not caring about the costs. For neglecting my family. For refusing to address my mental health issues. And for losing control and slapping him. In a fit of uncontrolled anger I lashed out and slapped him. I felt immediate remorse, realized I was out of control and within days had made the first of several appointments to begin the process of treating my mental health issues.

While we were separated under the same roof I grovelled, I begged, I pleaded, I debased myself. All under the guise of apologizing.

He, meanwhile, used my guilt and remorse against me at every opportunity. He said unbelievably cruel things to me and about me. Nothing I did to show I had changed made the least bit of difference to him. He believed the worst of me because he wanted to. He admitted months later that he got a charge out of being "on top" and having the "moral high ground." He intended to "punish" me.

The irony in the situation is the A. He'd been involved in the A for a little over 1.5 by the time he started the fight that ended with me hitting him. While he was punishing me for my indiscretions he was still with the OW. They were fantasizing about a "life together" and talking about marriage.

No matter how much I pleaded, or apologized he didn't see the sincerity of my words or my actions.

He was so angry with himself and with me, he was trying to hard to justify his A, and filled with guilt over his own actions that he couldn't see the changes. And if he saw them he convinced himself that they weren't true.

I know how hard it is when you want to prove that you love someone beyond all else, when you want to prove your remorse, when you want to ease past hurts.

But, Burnt, your husband is not in a place where he can see any of that. He is not in a place where he wants to see any of that.

My ex-husband has even admitted that he enjoyed making me suffer as he believed I had made him suffer. He liked having the upper hand. He got a rush from watching me grovel.

If I could go back and do everything over again I would never have allowed him to do that to me. I would have treated myself with the respect he denied me.

Love yourself enough to treat yourself with the respect your husband would deny you.

BS (Me) XWH (him) M nearly 16 yrs
1 DD (teens)
D-day #1 12/09, #2 2/10
Divorced 10/6/10

posts: 3862   ·   registered: Jan. 22nd, 2010   ·   location: The Deep (Fried) South
id 4843704
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