SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

thanks planC... see I worry the whole mess is him willing to work on his side and all it feeds is a princess entitlement issue

How is she working on herself to question how her wanting alone time ain't helpful? How is she responding by behavior to now "get what she asked for" in Catch trying to be present and she blows him off?

So Catch44 goes to make a connection and gets avoidance in return - IMO not good

seems like manipulation so I really hope I am wrong but yeah, that whole crying about how she F'd up and all ain't revealing it now with behavior that she "gets it" by thinking she's entitled to alone time

So #1 if this is going to impact the kids I'm pissed. #2 her home alone is a trigger. So I wanted to talk tonight because I don't feel her idea of separation for healing and mine are aligning very well.

So she says she doesn't want to talk tonight. So I'm pissed but know I need to settle down because it doesn't have to be tonight; that is trying to control things. So I text back "OK".

I got no 2x4's just go with your gut, keep calm, and if she continues to stonewall I would call out her BS about wanting to heal as silence is most unhelpful as evidenced by the last go-round of failing to read her mind

get her to explain how she would be a partner. What are her ideas of partnership and what is she doing to make that happen?

I mean, how in the hey can the dynamic change if she won't speak up?

FOO dances suck... peace as you process

[This message edited by Merida at 10:33 AM, May 26th (Friday)]

Made it through 5 pages of this before I thought I might have an anxiety attack. So many women living this hell - it's shocking. I'm also appalled that members are removed from SI for certain comments, but allowed to stay when they are known abusers urging others to join them. Please moderators, step up and do the right thing.

I'm only responding because of a comment that the BW's opinions weren't valid because they weren't a WW. I am a WW. And a bad one at that. LTA that has more starts than stops. All kinds of sex with AP that I've never had with my H. Because H and I didn't have that kind of relationship, never really did. Our physical relationship is in a different zone after almost 20 years and 2 kids together, sorry sometimes that just happens. It's not that he's not attractive, or that he doesn't 'deserve' it. He doesn't want it either, or at least not with me enough to ever mention it. If his perspective changed because of finding out about the A, it doesn't mean mine would. If my H demanded sex of me post discovery to exert his power and demean me, it would not make him more of a man, it would only make him look pathetic. I didn't do xyz with AP because he was more of a man or because I'm a hidden slut. You know what's different about AP and my H? AP worships my body. Constant conversation about how much he wants me, what he's thinking about doing the next time we're together, asking me over and over what I want done. That just happens to be sexier than talking about what's for dinner and when to take the car in for service. So yeah, the sex is going to be different. Sometimes you can't have it all. Did I care how genuine AP's comments were? Meh. He was consistent, good enough.

But here's the important part, the total package with H is worth WAY more than the sex with AP. H is better. You BH's are better than AP if she chooses to stay with you. Why is that so hard to understand? Why is that not enough? Why are you risking ruining what you have going for you by turning into these unrecognizable douches?

Post A though is a different story. I am expending no effort to woo her or make her feel "special". Sex will happen whenever and wherever I say or I will throw her ass out and D her immediately. And if she doesn't like this situation, she's free to leave. I have a host of issues to deal with because of her actions - especially sex related horrors. She can deal with a few things herself. Consequences, punishment, feeling used, I don't give a fuck how anyone categorizes it. If it humiliates her too, oh fucking well, join the club.

^^^ adding this to my personal justification library to re-read every time I get a flicker of desire to confess.

familyfirst...

Do not make this about YOU and your story. I have advocated LOUDLY and VOCALLY on this thread that NO ONE(man, woman, wayward or betrayed) should have sex when they do not want to for WHATEVER REASON.

DO NOT come here and throw BH's under the bus because of your own brokeness.

You're reason for NOT confessing have NOTHING to do with your BH or any BH husband on this thread. it has to do with your own cracks in your own bucket. You took superficial comments that you knew where NOT real for a brief moment to make you feel better.

You do not have to confess and no one can make you. But you comment lets us know that you are still certainly wayward...as you still think and speak wayward.

But here's the important part, the total package with H is worth WAY more than the sex with AP. H is better. You BH's are better than AP if she chooses to stay with you. Why is that so hard to understand? Why is that not enough? Why are you risking ruining what you have going for you by turning into these unrecognizable douches?

^^^^ adding this to my personal library for reasons why I will continue to hold my WH accountable for his actions,requiring to be treated with respect and dignity, work on MY OWN SELF-ESTEEM AND WORTH and let him know that if he tries this bullshit again...HIS ASS IS OUT FASTER THAN I CAN TAKE MY NEXT BREATH.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 10:48 AM, May 26th (Friday)]

Thanks Zugzwang,

Because if I was in your shoes I would be pissed and angry that I was scared because she was alone and wanted to be alone.

I think all of my anger is fear based. 99% of the time. I was angry about the affect on the kids. I hadn't even thought of the alone thing. That is a good point. Shit.

Would I want to beat the shit out of man that treated my little girl that way?"

What I did was wrong, regardless of intent. Looking at it from a father's lens, I probably would.

You can't force her to be there

I do feel like I'm trying to mind read.

Kind of a KISA when it comes to your wife being stressed or having problems.

Yes I do. But she feels I put my feelings on her as well. Yes, her problems become my problems. Or stuff she screws up becomes mine to fix (usually in cost $).

Thanks PlanC, It is a real possibility.

Thanks Merida,

I got no 2x4's just go with your gut, keep calm, and if she continues to stonewall I would call out her BS about wanting to heal as silence is most unhelpful as evidenced by the last go-round of failing to read her mind

get her to explain how she would be a partner. What are her ideas of partnership and what is she doing to make that happen?

I mean, how in the hey can the dynamic change if she won't speak up?

FOO dances suck... peace as you process

My direction isn't clear. I'm still watching. Hypervigilant even... If I see anything change I'll post.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 11:09 AM, May 26th (Friday)]

I gotta back Prissy on this.

My BH would NEVER, EVER dream of treating me the way that Stayforthekids treats his wife. It would never enter his mind to treat me like that.

And I know many BH's on this site that are the same way. Stay is in the absolute minority on this site.

You are not confessing because of YOU, and your need to protect yourself. Don't make it about your BH.

Catch,

A couple of things,

The fear of abandonment, I think you need to explore that further.

second, if you are triggering, you need to talk to her and she needs to set aside the time to listen, period.

Merida,

just go with your gut

I don't know what my gut is really saying. Right now it is saying she is desperate and I have the upper hand. If I push, I can make her capitulate.

But... my gut is also unsure if she is sincere.

So I am trying to ignore my gut and do what I feel is right.

tired girl,

I will look into the abandonment. I've read books on renurturing yourself, blah blah blah. This one is hard.

Our communication is awful. She wants a separation with a wall. At least that is how I believe she sees it. And I don't want that. I'd rather legally separate. I want more flexibility. And I'm mad/scared. I just want to leave/threaten divorce and not have a risk of abandonment looming overhead. Sitting in that discomfort really sucks. When she last had her vent the other day, I said,"so what, are you saying you want to divorce?". She said, "No" in a way like how did you get that out of that.

I just don't like the terms I am being given. They don't seem fair. We are talking tonight and then have MC on Monday.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 11:53 AM, May 26th (Friday)]

And I'm mad/scared. I just want to leave/threaten divorce and not have a risk of abandonment looming overhead. Sitting in that discomfort really sucks.

I get this, I really do. But I think you need to look at it.

And for everybody who thinks that he is doing all the work, he has work to do whether his wife and him stay together or D, so what is the problem?

Thanks tired girl,

I get this, I really do. But I think you need to look at it.

I'm looking for a book right now.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 12:31 PM, May 26th (Friday)]

Catch44...

This journey is definitely not for the faint of heart. I am BS and honestly when I got to the point that I was fucking exhausted I decided to save myself.

It wasn't altruistic or wanting to save my marriage. I was just tired. So I saved myself. And I got so busy saving myself I learned to forgive myself. I learned that I am STEEL and I needed to bend more. I learned that I needed to let go of some control in my physical world( I was bitch about keeping the house clean) because it was just a mask for me feeling so out of control. Or not being the "perfect" woman/wife/mother.

I realized that I took NO time for myself. NONE. I thought I did but I really didn't. My first step was reading " brene brown rising strong. I dedicated 1 hour a day to myself. and damn was is hard. I felt guilty, sad, scared...I didn't realize how hard it was to make myself a priority.

You are making yourself a priority...and you should be proud of yourself for that.

Seems to be a chicken/egg dynamic going on here. She needs to assert her wants/needs, etc. but when she does it's an issue. Like she communicated she didn't want to go to the condo. That's her owning her want/need. At that point you have two choices, you can accept it and say, her loss or you can freak out and ultimately try to make her bend to your wishes.

You are two autonomous people with wants, needs, and issues.

Now, the above of course assumes she is doing what she needs to do as fww. If not it's less true.

Stupid math theory class, sorry.

ok, like so many issues

not "all" the work, the concern is the "heavy lifting"

just my opinion, I could be wrong, and tired girl I agree the abandonment/controlling FOO has to be dealt with regardless

at the risk of throwing out a non-comparative wasn't there an edith who threw out the whole controlling, abusive crap in order to continue her affair?

This has got to be a majority fear of betrayeds while admitting I can only speak for myself, the gift of a chance to reconcile and do the work, to hang onto hope and then be handed a false R

so, yes, he has to drop the co-D "Do it right" (no - do what feels right is so different from ignoring your gut so yeah, it is hard but get out of your head space and really get in touch with the boy who needs grown-up Catch to love him wholeheartedly and unconditionally and let him know he doesn't need to please anyone to get love and approval = don't you abandon yourself ever again as you have found it is not worth it to be charlie brown... 'nuff said)

and yet this whole thread started with him asking about how he could reframe his perspective

I would be less harsh in my view if the WW was posting and can only hope she reads voraciously to get that she also needs to re-frame her perspective on the give and take

the co-D /counter-D imbalance can only ever stop when both stop and re-frame and so I don't see any evidence presented here but granted we only have one writer so...

ok, good point on her possibly establishing her want to express a boundary of "no" to do a vacation at the condo, but see here's the deal I thought the boundary was no to sex on demand?

So where has she established that she empathizes with how triggery her choice to be alone seems?

So yeah, if that hasn't been brought up, no wonder it's chicken/egg as so often the conflict management his/her needs are a work in progress

and man oh man has familyfirst post put it out there so beautifully about the problem of cake-eating

god-forbid she should speak up to her husband and tell her husband how she would rather be wooed throughout the day to want her husband more. Yeah, opening her freaking mouth is soooo much harder than her legs (ok, if I need to retract that I will... but stinking thinking "can't have it all" what the heck does that mean really? )

So there are some really good nuggets about really questioning and being OK to push the WW off the fence

A separation with a wall - if that is the case - is not a recovery and reconciliation recipe IMO so yeah I would definitely be asking questions to get clarity about how both partners can establish healthy boundaries and firm actions and consequences with a good MC

[This message edited by Merida at 3:27 PM, May 26th (Friday)]

She felt disrespected with ODS.

You are stopping that.

You felt disrespected by her cheating.

She is--?

You are already doing your part, right? So what is the "danger" of her coming with the family?

You sometimes say that she is scared and doesn't want a D, etc. But honestly, it seems she is just scared of what being D looks like for her. Not wanting to face the consequences of divorce is NOT the same as wanting to work on and be in the marriage.

Unless there is a control issue here where you are calling all the shots on vaca and she is angry, then she should be going. If she is not, then she does not want the M. I am sorry, but the truth seems obvious. And no, a cheater does not stay home alone. You BOTH need to do work, not just you.

I do not like the vibe from her actions, and I do fear your abandonment issues are turning to control and anger instead of you just quietly leaving this M. Let her go. If she wants to work on things, then she will start investing in you and the family separate from her ODS complaints. There are other ways to show commitment, and I am not seeing them from her.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:18 PM, May 26th (Friday)]

"Still am, but trying to change"....good for you! Knowing you have to change AND what you need to change is a huge step. I hope your wife can see the change in your attitude. Keep the focus. When your wife feels appreciated and not obligated to have sex you will see someone who will be a receptive and willing partner. Peace to you brother.

When your wife feels appreciated and not obligated to have sex you will see someone who will be a receptive and willing partner.

when that partner is healthy... IMO

A partner who doesn't "get it yet" takes advantage of "the nice" if there has been no reciprocity. If the boundary was "no sex on demand" and now it's a boundary push to "I want to be alone without the kids and you" then no wonder it doesn't feel fair, because IMO it isn't fair because that wasn't the original deal. I don't know about you,Catch, but to me that is the worst feeling when working to compromise, and I agree to whatever and then suddenly that's no longer the basis for agreement and a whole other round of negotiations begin... ugh frustration is an understatement

That is the importance of being true to yourself and speaking your truth as you have - I echo that her not wanting to divorce but staying ambivalent is toxic and the triggers can delay recovering from co-D "Nice Guy".

This is the importance of detaching and being willing to lose the marriage because you realize that it is not a "win" to stay together solely for the fear of the unknown or any other fear based reason

Please no forms of a pick me dance to fuel any entitlement mentality when the wayward doesn't face consequences for cheating... repeatedly

She's not obligated to have sex with you = absolutely

she is free to go - alone - without the kids and you hire "alice" as frankly that would be the cheapest cost divorce. She's already abandoned the family so let her live her single life dream. No support from you so that that little girl grows up without daddy as that has been called out and I agree that seems to be her inner wound

strength to you to let go of the outcome and just focus on you being YOU whole, healthy and happy internally

to thine own self be true

and that truth sets you free

hurts like hell in the beginning but than you realize it's just growing pains so it's all good

peace

When I first started reading this thread I thought my WH found this site. My WH was always demanding sex. But then I read that your wife is the wayward? I was young when i started dating my WH and I thought his behavior was normal at first. But I found myself avoiding certain behaviors because he perceived them as me wanting "it". He had a quota that was acceptable. I was living my life adjusting my behaviors and manipulating our weekends into me avoiding him. Sex became obligatory. If we weren't having sex I saw that look or maybe I imagined it, the "I'll be looking for you alone, later" look. I was always finding ways of distracting him. Making plans with his mom, whatever I could do. The worst was when he demanded we do it right before my ob/gyn appointment because he rationalized since he had the day off to go with me for the prenatal visit (I was pregnant) we could use that time for sex. Boy did my OB/GYN let me have it. WH thought it was amusing. If I turned him down he frumped around mixed with anger and snarky comments..."you're not too tired to be on the phone for the last 20 minutes!!!" ...all day or until I submitted. I later fantasizes about other men, the scenario was them rescuing me and flattening my WH. But it never crossed the line of my fantasizing about escaping him.

I later fantasizes about other men, the scenario was them rescuing me

I had these fantasies for years, but I saw them as unrelated to resentment of my H, mostly because while I hated the ODS and obsessive porn use, he was very supportive of me in other ways. I was confused as to whether I hated him or loved him. But those fantasies should have been a major clue . . . and red flag.

I confess I haven't read every post on this thread so if I restate this; what the Hell are your love languages. We give and receive differently most of the time.

At the risk of putting this out there. It really seems like your WW has resentment issues and still blames you for her choice in cheating. However, you need to work on your coping skills and how you vent stress.

Her wanting to not come along may not have anything to do with cheating but more with trying to figure herself out. Maybe she just can't muck through the shit besides you. She seems to be focusing on you and pre-affair issues. Which you seem to be focusing on getting the marriage back on track and everything will be fine. Is it possible she can't see anything through her resentment? Unfortunately someone has to give. Either you or her, has to give up the control and issues in order to move forward. With or without each other. Because it really sounds like you guys have gotten to a stalemate of tit-for-tat. Or what I like to call a zugzwang.

You can't heal her. It isn't your job to make her happy. My wife and I didn't have the co-dependency issues. I just had the FOO issue that it was my job to make my wife happy and felt like a failure if I didn't. So perhaps I just had dependency issues. That is how my childhood was-acts of service. In turn I expected others to make me happy with their words (foo) and sex (way to cope with stress). Which my wife rarely used (words of affirmation). Only because she really didn't see why a grown ass adult needed to be treated like a child. At going on the age of 40, I should have been confident and sound enough with myself to not need someone to say that-a-boy you are wonderful all the time. Frankly, she is right. She showed her affection in many other ways and man when the 180 hit did I fucking realize it. Of course we all know it is easy to make the AP happy. Fluff and stuff as my wife calls the whole shit. Thing is I had nothing to do with my wife's unhappiness. All she expected was a safe harbor when she got exhausted from life. I fucked that up royally. It opened a whole new world. Make yourself happy and healthy. Novel idea. Who would-have-thought. The pivotal moment in becoming healthier. When my wife said it wasn't my job to make her happy. It was my job to stand beside her and support her. That means you become respectful. Encouraging when things are tough. Point out ways to help. Call an adult out when they are acting like a child. Above all, do no harm.

Compromising changes every day. Because you are both changing every day. That is why honest, transparent, authentic communication is the key here. You two just need to lay it all out there. Yeah, it sucks that you will need to be that humble and vulnerable. You being the betrayed. Set a limit and if nothing changes by it, then do what you need to do. Know that you can still be okay and go on without her. The two of you just not being compatible. It will suck breaking the dream you thought you might have with your children. But, that dream was already broken the day she turned from you to an OM. You will then know for sure if she is using the past and the affair to feel entitled to be selfish.

Bump

I want to read this entire post; I started but it upset me that I stopped on about page three. I bumped it once, so it would not fall off the last page and here it is again and still have not had the temerity to get reading. One more bump and then I'll let go.